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WHAT IS THE FALLING AWAY


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14 hours ago, Steve_S said:

This is sheer guess work, basically.

2Th 2:1  Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 
2Th 2:2  not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 

It implies that they thought the day of Christ may have come. It does not expound upon that at all. Anyone can make an assumption that paul is talking about a pretrib rapture, but the bible does not say that paul is talking about a pretrib rapture.

 

You don't associate "the gathering" and "his coming" with the rapture?

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8 hours ago, LovelyJoni said:

You don't need the Lord to "enlighten" you in the scriptures so that you can suddenly understand why the Lord sends some babies to hell. The fact is that there will be zero babies in hell and if you suddenly become"enlightened" and the scriptures began saying that unclean babies are in hell please believe you have a spirit of deception hanging around you "enlightening" you. I'm sorry but that really upset me. That's a very disturbing teaching/belief. 

Jeremiah 2:34   Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these.

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4 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Sister , 

That is pretty much a distinction without a difference .

There have always been unbelievers in the midst , even Jesus had Judas .

Paul's tone just seems to speak to something different than ever before , on a much larger scale going on here . 

 

Unfailing Presence

We are not talking about unbelievers, but believers.  These who fall away are believers.  Believers who have not done the right thing by Christ.  Who will be able to endure to the end?  Judas was a believer, but he was tempted and unable to control his greed.  He was weeded out.  The falling away will be a mass weeding out like never before.  If we are not indoctrinated by false teachings, we should be able to endure with that faith we have been given,  and strong foundation keeping our eyes on the prize that Christ gives at his return.  That's the hope, to be counted worthy and accepted, no matter what lies ahead.

 

 Isaiah 33:14   The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
 

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18 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Is it not written in your Scripture:  "you all are elohim" !  (Jesus quoted this Scripture to the religious leaders).

 

As long as nobody takes that too far.......gods and sons of god are just descriptive terms for angels.....where Jesus confirmed that we shall be like the angels.  And where in Revelations, one or two of the angels were of the brethren. The bible says that before Him there was no God nor will there be after Him (so to speak)....just want to stress that the Lord is not making people into Gods in their own right, no, never.  His people will rule and reign WITH Him, ie,  not independently and apart from Him, but always subordinate to Him so to speak, like the angels are.

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5 hours ago, Sister said:
10 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Sister , 

That is pretty much a distinction without a difference .

There have always been unbelievers in the midst , even Jesus had Judas .

Paul's tone just seems to speak to something different than ever before , on a much larger scale going on here . 

 

Unfailing Presence

We are not talking about unbelievers, but believers.  These who fall away are believers.  Believers who have not done the right thing by Christ.  Who will be able to endure to the end?  Judas was a believer, but he was tempted and unable to control his greed.  He was weeded out.  The falling away will be a mass weeding out like never before

Sister , 

" Weeding out "   and  " Falling Away " sound like two different animals to me .

And even if you consider the "falling away "  a "weeding out " type thing , where does a believer go after being " weeded out " ?

I do not believe that Judas was ever a believer , the proof of this being that while we are all subject to Satan's temptations ,  it is not possible for Satan to physically enter into a person indwelt by Christ , as was the case with Judas .

Darkness cannot overpower Light .

 

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7 hours ago, Giller said:

The bible says to compare the word with the word , which is what I have done, and besides what you say of the 2 witnesses makes absolutely no sense, how do you say that they begin in the last half of the tribulation yet they begin before the mid point ??? And it being 3 1/2 days rather than 3 1/2 years ? because what the bible says is that they prophesy for 3 1/2 years (not days), and at the mid point the Antichrist shall kill them.

Rev 11:3
(3)  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
 

1.260 days equals to 3 1/2 years via the Jewish calender of the bible.

And at the mid point the Antichrist kills them:

Rev 11:7
(7)  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
 

And at this mid point is when he begins his persecution of people who reject his mark.

It is simple, only 3 1/2 days are before the abomination that divides the week. They show up then because the man of sin shows up then in Jerusalem. After all, if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem, he first must arrive in Jerusalem. He shows up a few days before. I think 3 1/2 days. Therefore, 1256.5 days of their testimony will be in the second half.  (1260 - 3.5)

Just so you know, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven marking the very moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is god.  If you notice, the two witnesses show up and begin their testimony just before the 7th trumpet. And if you notice, those in Judea that see the abomination will begin to flee just after the 7th trumpet.

They testify for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. The great earthquake when they rise is the very same earthquake at the 7th vial. 

It only appears they die before the 7th trumpet, but in reality John wrote 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis, taking us down a SIDE journey (no bearing on chronology) only with the two witnesses. The truth is, when John saw they, that is when they arrive and begin.  It would be silly for John to write of 42 months of trampling, to begin in 11:2, and then write of 1260 days that started way back at the beginning! Sorry, but John is very careful with his chronology.  You are simply missing the parenthesis. 

For chronology, It is as follows:

The man of sin arrives in Jerusalem with Gentile armies: 11:1-2

The two witnesses show up because he showed up.  11:3

The 7th trumpet sounds:  11_15

Those in Judea begin to flee: 12:6

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6 hours ago, Giller said:

And this scripture:

2Th 2:3
(3)  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 

Fits well with this scripture:

1Ti 4:1
(1)  Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


 

"Some" departing and a very significant falling away are two different things. The truth is, when a few fall away, many more believe and are added to the body of Christ.

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6 hours ago, Giller said:

Even most of the people who actually wrote the old English bibles, and translated the word:"apotasia" as departure, knew that it was referring to a departure of the faith, here is info on this:

 

(https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.ca/2016/01/apostasia-rebellion-or-rapture-thomas.html)

 

(...William Tyndale interpreted apostasia as a departure from the faith.. 

 
"sheweth that there shall be a departure from the faith....."
 
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion." {5}
 
Tyndale NT Commentary: "The necessary prelude to the coming of Christ is 'the rebellion'.... falling away hardly gives the force of apostasia..... In classical Greek, the word apostasia denoted a political or military rebellion; but in the Greek Old Testament we find it used of rebellion against God (e.g. Joshua xxii. 22), and this becomes the accepted biblical usage." {6})...
 

 

...The Original Geneva Footnotes


The Geneva Bible (Breeches Bible) includes marginal notes authored by John Calvin, John Knox, Miles Coverdale, and many other leaders of the Reformation.

The Second Epistle Of Paul To The Thessalonians:

"Lest the Thessalonians should think that Paul neglected them, because he went to other places, rather than come to them, he writeth unto them and exhorteth them to patience and other fruits of faith, neither to be moved with that vain opinion of such as taught that the coming of Christ was at hand, for as much as before that day there should be a falling away from the true religion, even by a great part of the world, and that Antichrist should reign in the Temple of God;"

2 Thessalonians 2: " 2 He sheweth that the day of the Lord shall not come, till there be a departure from the faith, and that the Antichrist be revealed, 8 whose destruction he setteth out, 15 and thereupon exhorteth to constancy." {7}...)

A departure from faith does not stand up to the test of verses 6-8. It cannot be the one holding down being "taken out of the way."  If they made notes that it was a falling away from God, they were mistaken.

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11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Please note, Paul wrote, AND NOW YOU KNOW...so we SHOULD know, after reading this passage WHO the restrainer is.

Sorry, but the Two Witnesses testify during the LAST HALF of the week. But they begin just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint.

It is the Holy Spirit who is the restrainer but He works trhough believers.

I found this guest blog in another post from a different site.....By:  David Montaigne

In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 the Bible refers to the restrainer as “he” not “it” or some organization or set of beliefs. This rules out the United Nations or U.S. Congress or government in general as the restraining influence. The personal pronoun “he” also rules out the idea that the saints (a multitude of people) hold back the restrainer until a pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture removes their restraining influence. It rules out the idea that the church is thereby removed at the rapture as a restrainer.

The King James Bible in particular helps portray the restrainer… as the Holy Spirit. At least this suggestion is both singular and supernatural. But the idea that we will be abandoned by the Holy Spirit at the time of our greatest need is a false doctrine. Let’s consider a few verses . . .

John 14:16-17 previously clarified “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth.” This is the Holy Spirit, sometimes thought of as God’s active force (as “sunshine” here gives us light and warmth while the “sun” it comes from is too intense to have right here with us) or as an integral part of the godhead/trinity. More importantly, these verses portray the Helper as the Holy Spirit and the “He” who will “be with you forever.” Does this sound like “he” will leave us when we need him most? Note also that the Holy Spirit always has a capitalized letter H in “He” (being part of the divine godhead/trinity) but the restrainer, who is not, has a lowercase letter h in “he” and must be a separate individual.

In Joel 2:28-32 God tells us after we start to see the signs of the Last Day “It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind…. I will pour out My Spirit in those days. I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, blood, fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered.” This does not sound like the Holy Spirit has been taken away in the end times; it sounds like the time when the greatest outpouring of Holy Spirit occurs….

Revelation 7:13-14 says “’These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?’ I said to him, ‘My lord, you know.’ And he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’” These are the “tribulation saints” who were saved after the wrath of the Antichrist is underway. How were they saved? 1 Corinthians 12:3 tells us “no one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit.” NO ONE is saved except through the Holy Spirit. Therefore the Holy Spirit – “the Renewer of the Face of the Earth”   – cannot have abandoned us during the tribulation, when these saints are saved.

But if this popular view that the Holy Spirit is the “he” who is “the restrainer” is wrong; then who is the removed restrainer that allows the Antichrist to reveal himself? Since the Antichrist is a supernatural being of great power, the restrainer must be at least his equal….

The Antichrist’s restrainer must be a powerful spirit being capable of chaining demonic spirits in the abyss. The great angel of Revelation 20:1-3 fits the bill: “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him.” This is a future event, but whoever “he” is, if he can handle Satan himself, and chain him in the abyss, he could be the restrainer of the Antichrist.”

The only thing being removed at the mid-point of the tribulation is the restraining action of the Archangel Michael – not all Christian believers in the rapture.”  – David Montaigne

 The Greek word “restrains” means to “hold down” or “to hold fast.”  Because this word does not appear in the Septuagint OT, scholars have had to make assumptions as to the identity of the “restrainer” just as David does above.  We can’t have a definitive reference without use of the same word.  We must prove the restrainer’s identity by context.

There is some linguistic proof, however.  In Daniel 10, we observe Michael “standing firm” against demonic forces:

But I (the messenger angel) shall now return to fight against the prince (archon) of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince (archon) of Greece is about to come.  However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your (Jewish) prince (archon). (Dan. 10: 20-21 NASB, clarification and emphasis mine)

Although the Greek word translated “stands firm” is not identical to the Greek word found in 2 Thessalonians translated as “restains”, it has an identical meaning!  It means “to hold fast to.”  So Michael is pictured as “holding fast to” or restraining demonic powers.  These forces listed are two of the seven heads or kings of the Beast of Rev. 17.  It makes logical sense that when the final king is about to arise, he will also be restained (held fast to) by Michael.

The Greek term parerchomai is found in Daniel 12:1 of the Septuagint (LXX) and means, “to pass by” or “to withdraw” which shows Michael withdrawing (from his restraint of the Antichrist).  Immediately after this we see the Great Tribulation beginning.  This corresponds perfectly with  Thessalonians 2:6–7 and the revealing of the Antichrist.

Revelation 12:7–17 links Michael’s war against the dragon with the great tribulation as well.  This war with Satan is the reason that Michael withdraws from his restraint.  This war with Satan also silences critics who claim only the Holy Spirit is Satan’s equal and capable of restraint.  Please note that Michael wins the war with Satan.

TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY

Another interesting phrase occurs in 2 Thessalonians and is often mistranslated.

until             he be         (taken)      out of        the midst.

heos           genetai                               ek                     mesou

This is the phrase traditionally translated “until he is taken out of the way.”  But that is not what the phrase says.  The Greek word genetaiactually means “becomes” or “is revealed” just as the “Word becameflesh and dwelt among us.”  Also notice the word “taken” doesn’t appear anywhere in the passage.  It was inserted by some translators.

The passage actually says “until he is revealed out of the midst.”  It is speaking of the Antichrist not the restrainer, and means that the restrainer will restrain the Antichrist until he (the Antichrist) arises.  No one is “taken out of the way.”  Michael “withdraws” as we learned in Daniel 12:1.  He withdraws to fight against Satan and his fallen angels as we learn in Revelation 12.  It is at this point he no longer “holds fast” and restrains the lawless one.

 

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With regard to all the postings about babies.....

Ps 139: 

For You formed my [i]inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for [j]I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15 My [k]frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

"The days that were adorned for me, when as yet there was not one of them"...... God knows the end from the beginning. He knows before we are even born who is going to be His. Some will...some won't. God is Sovereign.

 

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