WHAT IS THE FALLING AWAY

[Sister]

6 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Sister , 

" Weeding out "   and  " Falling Away " sound like two different animals to me .

And even if you consider the "falling away "  a "weeding out " type thing , where does a believer go after being " weeded out " ?

I do not believe that Judas was ever a believer , the proof of this being that while we are all subject to Satan's temptations ,  it is not possible for Satan to physically enter into a person indwelt by Christ , as was the case with Judas .

Darkness cannot overpower Light .

 

Unfailing Presence

They are not animals, but believers who have had choices.  Satan has left no stone unturned, as he has infiltrated every single corner with his workers of iniquity.  If a believer is in tune with the Word of God, he will not feel comfortable with that flock that has been infiltrated, but will come out and follow the true shepherd on that very narrow road where only one can fit through at a time. 

If he has followed the Shepherd for hire who came in through the back door, then where does he go when tribulation comes because of the Word?....

He goes through the fire.  Simple as that.  His robe has to be made clean so he can be accepted by Christ.  He has to get a quick pass now, a crash course to show he is approved.

 

Did you read Rev 11, and seek the difference between those who worship at the altar "in" the temple, compared to those who are only "in the court" area?

Who are those in the temple offering sacrifices?  Please concentrate and read it over and over and over.  These are not offering  animal sacrifices, but sacrifices of the heart.  These are those who have truly followed the Shepherd and they are brought into the most inner holiest place.  The rest will go through the fire.  Inside that temple is a small number only.  I know who they are, but I cannot say it's you or me, or brother Joe.  Only Christ knows.

I'll give you a clue, they were sealed to be the firstfruits, but there's not many of them.  Only a few compared to the masses who have dirty robes.  So unless we are one of them, ....we have to be prepared to make our robes white.  Only Christ knows.

 

 

 

[wingnut-]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

A departure from faith does not stand up to the test of verses 6-8. It cannot be the one holding down being "taken out of the way."  If they made notes that it was a falling away from God, they were mistaken.

 

What doesn't stand up is trying to rework scripture to support a theory, because scripture supports itself, as can be found in the very words Jesus spoke.

 

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

 

 

 

 

[Unfailing Presence]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

18 hours ago, Giller said:

And this scripture:

2Th 2:3
(3)  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 

Fits well with this scripture:

1Ti 4:1
(1)  Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

"Some" departing and a very significant falling away are two different things. The truth is, when a few fall away, many more believe and are added to the body of Christ

Yes , but many calling themselves Christians  are " departing from the faith "   today , and have been doing so for many years . 

These are the " latter times " we are living in now  .

My understanding in  what Paul is referring to is a one time, mass exodus that happens very suddenly .\

He is speaking of a different event happening in a very short period of time  .

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Yes , but many calling themselves Christians  are " departing from the faith "   today , and have been doing so for many years . 

These are the " latter times " we are living in now  .

My understanding in  what Paul is referring to is a one time, mass exodus that happens very suddenly .\

He is speaking of a different event happening in a very short period of time  .

 

I don't think that will ever happen. Why? Because I don't think that is the meaning of Apostasia the way Paul used it. It just does not fit the context of the passage. I guess it is possible that a "falling away" can be the restrainer "taken out of the way." But I think Paul would have written it differently if that was his meaning. "taken" has a connotation just not the same as fallen.

I agree that if that were the meaning, it would have to be a very sudden and very large falling away to make it THE apostasia. 

Neither do I see the theme of the passage - the rapture - satisfied if it is not done in the word apostasia.  I know many think "the day" spoken of means the rapture.  Reading all the old Testament verses concerning "the day" I don't see it meaning "the rapture." I see it meaning a very dark day of disaster. 

Since the word apostasia CAN mean a spacial departure of a part of a whole group from the whole group, I think the rapture or gathering theme is satisfied in this word. And it makes perfect sense that the Holy Spirit is using His body on earth to restrain evil.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

What doesn't stand up is trying to rework scripture to support a theory, because scripture supports itself, as can be found in the very words Jesus spoke.

 

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

You are missing the TIMING of this verse: it is church age timing, not end time. Did you overlook what Jesus said: "the end is not yet?" 

No one is "reworking" any scripture. It has been proven over and over that "apostasia" can mean a spacial separation or departing of a part of a whole group, from the entire group. 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I found this guest blog in another post from a different site.....By:  David Montaigne

In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 the Bible refers to the restrainer as “he” not “it” or some organization or set of beliefs. This rules out the United Nations or U.S. Congress or government in general as the restraining influence. The personal pronoun “he” also rules out the idea that the saints (a multitude of people) hold back the restrainer until a pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture removes their restraining influence. It rules out the idea that the church is thereby removed at the rapture as a restrainer.

The King James Bible in particular helps portray the restrainer… as the Holy Spirit. At least this suggestion is both singular and supernatural. But the idea that we will be abandoned by the Holy Spirit at the time of our greatest need is a false doctrine. Let’s consider a few verses . . .

John 14:16-17 previously clarified “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth.” This is the Holy Spirit, sometimes thought of as God’s active force (as “sunshine” here gives us light and warmth while the “sun” it comes from is too intense to have right here with us) or as an integral part of the godhead/trinity. More importantly, these verses portray the Helper as the Holy Spirit and the “He” who will “be with you forever.” Does this sound like “he” will leave us when we need him most? Note also that the Holy Spirit always has a capitalized letter H in “He” (being part of the divine godhead/trinity) but the restrainer, who is not, has a lowercase letter h in “he” and must be a separate individual.

In Joel 2:28-32 God tells us after we start to see the signs of the Last Day “It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind…. I will pour out My Spirit in those days. I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, blood, fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered.” This does not sound like the Holy Spirit has been taken away in the end times; it sounds like the time when the greatest outpouring of Holy Spirit occurs….

Revelation 7:13-14 says “’These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?’ I said to him, ‘My lord, you know.’ And he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’” These are the “tribulation saints” who were saved after the wrath of the Antichrist is underway. How were they saved? 1 Corinthians 12:3 tells us “no one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit.” NO ONE is saved except through the Holy Spirit. Therefore the Holy Spirit – “the Renewer of the Face of the Earth”   – cannot have abandoned us during the tribulation, when these saints are saved.

But if this popular view that the Holy Spirit is the “he” who is “the restrainer” is wrong; then who is the removed restrainer that allows the Antichrist to reveal himself? Since the Antichrist is a supernatural being of great power, the restrainer must be at least his equal….

The Antichrist’s restrainer must be a powerful spirit being capable of chaining demonic spirits in the abyss. The great angel of Revelation 20:1-3 fits the bill: “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him.” This is a future event, but whoever “he” is, if he can handle Satan himself, and chain him in the abyss, he could be the restrainer of the Antichrist.”

The only thing being removed at the mid-point of the tribulation is the restraining action of the Archangel Michael – not all Christian believers in the rapture.”  – David Montaigne

 The Greek word “restrains” means to “hold down” or “to hold fast.”  Because this word does not appear in the Septuagint OT, scholars have had to make assumptions as to the identity of the “restrainer” just as David does above.  We can’t have a definitive reference without use of the same word.  We must prove the restrainer’s identity by context.

There is some linguistic proof, however.  In Daniel 10, we observe Michael “standing firm” against demonic forces:

But I (the messenger angel) shall now return to fight against the prince (archon) of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince (archon) of Greece is about to come.  However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your (Jewish) prince (archon). (Dan. 10: 20-21 NASB, clarification and emphasis mine)

Although the Greek word translated “stands firm” is not identical to the Greek word found in 2 Thessalonians translated as “restains”, it has an identical meaning!  It means “to hold fast to.”  So Michael is pictured as “holding fast to” or restraining demonic powers.  These forces listed are two of the seven heads or kings of the Beast of Rev. 17.  It makes logical sense that when the final king is about to arise, he will also be restained (held fast to) by Michael.

The Greek term parerchomai is found in Daniel 12:1 of the Septuagint (LXX) and means, “to pass by” or “to withdraw” which shows Michael withdrawing (from his restraint of the Antichrist).  Immediately after this we see the Great Tribulation beginning.  This corresponds perfectly with  Thessalonians 2:6–7 and the revealing of the Antichrist.

Revelation 12:7–17 links Michael’s war against the dragon with the great tribulation as well.  This war with Satan is the reason that Michael withdraws from his restraint.  This war with Satan also silences critics who claim only the Holy Spirit is Satan’s equal and capable of restraint.  Please note that Michael wins the war with Satan.

TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY

Another interesting phrase occurs in 2 Thessalonians and is often mistranslated.

until             he be         (taken)      out of        the midst.

heos           genetai                               ek                     mesou

This is the phrase traditionally translated “until he is taken out of the way.”  But that is not what the phrase says.  The Greek word genetaiactually means “becomes” or “is revealed” just as the “Word becameflesh and dwelt among us.”  Also notice the word “taken” doesn’t appear anywhere in the passage.  It was inserted by some translators.

The passage actually says “until he is revealed out of the midst.”  It is speaking of the Antichrist not the restrainer, and means that the restrainer will restrain the Antichrist until he (the Antichrist) arises.  No one is “taken out of the way.”  Michael “withdraws” as we learned in Daniel 12:1.  He withdraws to fight against Satan and his fallen angels as we learn in Revelation 12.  It is at this point he no longer “holds fast” and restrains the lawless one.

 

It could just as well be "until he becomes out of the midst" which is just another way of saying taken out of the way.  If Paul was thinking of the rapture, there is ample proof that apostasia can very well mean a part of the whole population removes spatially away from the entire population. Oh, the Greek word also means to restrain. The meaning is clear: God is preventing the man of sin from being revealed until the proper time. This should be no mystery because we KNOW God is God and rules from heaven. He will not allow the Beast of Revelation to appear before the proper time. 

It is the HE of the Holy Spirit in question: HE is the restrainer - having enough power to create the universe and definitely enough power to restrain the devil. Strongs says:

 

to hold back, detain, retain

1. from going away

2. to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)

So "restrain" is a good translation. 

Therefore I disagree with Mr. Montaigne.

[Last Daze]

33 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are missing the TIMING of this verse: it is church age timing, not end time.

Is "church age" a biblical term?

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are missing the TIMING of this verse: it is church age timing, not end time. Did you overlook what Jesus said: "the end is not yet?"

 

No, I think you are missing the timing because you are overlooking what is said.  What you overlook, is what He said in verse 12, lawlessness is increased.  When does that happen?  What increases lawlessness?

 

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

 

How about this?

 

I Timothy 4  Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

 

And then there is this.

 

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

 

Really this begins in Hebrews 5, at verse 11, with a warning against apostasy, on which the writer says "on this we have much to say".  What you should take note of in all of this, is the Greek word, being the same one that you attempt to alter the meaning of in II Thessalonians.  Scripture clearly defines the meaning of the word, and what it represents, and by attempting to make it represent the same thing as harpazo you are doing a disservice to the truth.

God bless

 

 

[Daniel 11:36]

Matthew 24 is primarily about Israel during the coming tribulation period

So your interpretation is bogus

Are you a false teacher, or just listening to one

Edited February 22, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[wingnut-]

On 2/21/2018 at 8:37 AM, iamlamad said:

Please note, Paul wrote, AND NOW YOU KNOW...so we SHOULD know, after reading this passage WHO the restrainer is.

 

Yes, and Paul is pretty clear about it in the passage I think.

 

II Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.