WHAT IS THE FALLING AWAY

[Last Daze]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"The end" has not started.

Sure it has.  "The end" began when the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled.

[simplejeff]

hmmmm.... this is/was a little while before the times of the gentiles:

1 Peter 4:7-11 KJV - But the end of all things is at hand: - Bible Gateway

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+4%3A7-11&version...

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

hmmmm.... this is/was a little while before the times of the gentiles:

1 Peter 4:7-11 KJV - But the end of all things is at hand: - Bible Gateway

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+4%3A7-11&version...

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for.

Yes, the end of all things was made possible at the cross.  Because Jesus overcame sin and death, He was given all authority in heaven and on earth.  So, why didn't Jesus establish the kingdom of God on earth after His resurrection?  Because God was going to fulfill His promise to Abraham that in him, all the nations would be blessed.  This is the time of the nations (Gentiles), when the gospel was to be preached in all the world.  Galatians 3 goes into this in detail.

• This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

So, yes, the end of all things was "enabled" by Christ's victory over Satan but it's not until after the times of the Gentiles that the end [of Satan's reign] will come.

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Lawlessness will continue to increase, as it has from the very beginning, but a time is coming when lawlessness will be ruling openly.  Like when the man of lawlessness is ruling all the nations?  Right now we just see glimpses of it.  As for your reference to the church age, scripture only supports one occurrence of an age ending, and it is part of the Olivet discourse.  It is the last question the disciples asked Jesus, and He answered it.  Matthew 25.  Compare what takes place there, with the only place in scripture that tells us exactly when the age ends.

 

Matthew 13:37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

 

The age ends at the time of judgement, just as Jesus says it will.  If you disagree, then show scripture stating an age ends elsewhere.

 

 

They are derived from the same root word, the meaning doesn't change.  This is why when translated they arrive at the same word.

 

 

Wishful thinking, and rather comical.  Why would Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit use a word not in its usual meaning.  If Paul wanted to speak about the gathering he would have written harpazo, and it makes absolutely no sense in the context as a departing of the church.  Let me display this in plain fashion slightly paraphrased.

 

Concerning the Second Coming and the gathering (rapture), don't be spooked if someone tells you it already happened.  The Second Coming and the gathering (rapture) will not come, unless the departure of the church (rapture) and the man of lawlessness come first.

 

A rapture before a rapture, eh?  Yeah, that is not what Paul is saying, clearly.  No, what Paul is saying is that the Second Coming and the gathering (rapture) will not come, unless the falling away (departure from the faith) and the man of lawlessness come first.  And what else Paul is saying, is that the Second Coming and the gathering (rapture) are one event, and he defines that event as the Day of the Lord.

 

 

II Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

 

What leads up to this?

 

Revelation 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

 

And what activity?

 

Revelation 9  And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. 2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.

 

Now note that the fallen star is a HE, and this HE has been given a key to open the abyss.  

 

The fifth trumpet which begins the activity is the first WOE, as shown in scripture that the three woes are attached to the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpets.

 

Revelation 8:13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”

 

And from Revelation 12, when Satan is cast out of heaven by Michael and his angels.

 

Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

 

And take note to the mention of the sea, because this is where separating scripture into chapters did a great disservice to understanding.  Look how chapter 12 ends, and where chapter 13 begins.

 

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Revelation 13  And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.

 

 

 

The answer to who the restrainer is, I would say it is probably whomever gave him the key to open the abyss.  Ultimately, I would say the answer is Jesus, who holds the key to death and Hades.  However, it would appear based on scripture that Michael is the instrument being used to do so.  As shown in Revelation 12, it is Michael and his angels that eject him from heaven to earth.

So how is Michael taken out of the way?

 

Daniel 12  “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book."

 

What the above passage tells us, is that Michael, once he has thrown the enemy out of heaven, has a new task.  He is tasked with protecting the Jewish remnant whose names are found in the book of life.  We see this being carried out in Revelation 12 also.

 

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

 

So the answer to the question is God is restraining, until the proper time.

 

There is at least one small part of this that I think is the intent of scripture: the three woes are indeed the last three trumpets. On this point we agree. 

Of course, since you don't even know the church age exists, you won't know about its end. How amazing that untold millions of believers know they are living in the age of grace, or the church age, but you don't.

Just so you know, the church age or the age of grace will end with the pretrib rapture - another event you don't believe in. The next moment after the rapture will be the 6th seal earthquake which will be Paul's "sudden destruction." And John tells us that the new age will be the Day of the Lord. Shortly after the start of the Day of the Lord - started with this huge earthquake - the 7th seal will be opened which will begin the 70th week of Daniel. And the end of the age Jesus spoke of will be the end of THAT age, the 70th week of Daniel or the end of the Jew and Hebrew age.

Oh, we agree that God is doing the restraining. But I will add to that: God is using the authority of the church to do that restraining.  He gave His authority to the church.  He will take it back after the rapture. 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Yes, the end of all things was made possible at the cross.  Because Jesus overcame sin and death, He was given all authority in heaven and on earth.  So, why didn't Jesus establish the kingdom of God on earth after His resurrection?  Because God was going to fulfill His promise to Abraham that in him, all the nations would be blessed.  This is the time of the nations (Gentiles), when the gospel was to be preached in all the world.  Galatians 3 goes into this in detail.

• This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

So, yes, the end of all things was "enabled" by Christ's victory over Satan but it's not until after the times of the Gentiles that the end [of Satan's reign] will come.

I see the end of the times of the Gentiles ( I think it began with Nebuchadnezzar) as the rapture of the church. Then God will concentrate on the Hebrews and the 70th week.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Sure it has.  "The end" began when the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled.

Sorry, but Gentiles are still running things in this world. And the church is mostly a Gentile church. Blindness has happened to the Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. 

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course, since you don't even know the church age exists, you won't know about its end. How amazing that untold millions of believers know they are living in the age of grace, or the church age, but you don't.

 

Colorful attack, but naturally you fail to provide scripture to support your claims.  Typical.  If you want to insist something is true, shouldn't it be found in scripture, the source of all truth?

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Just so you know, the church age or the age of grace will end with the pretrib rapture - another event you don't believe in.

 

True, I do not believe in something that scripture does not support.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The next moment after the rapture will be the 6th seal earthquake which will be Paul's "sudden destruction."

 

And yet somehow the sudden destruction doesn't happen here according to your theory, care to explain that?  Are we redefining English words as well now?

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

And John tells us that the new age will be the Day of the Lord.

 

Please share this scripture with us, would love to see this.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Shortly after the start of the Day of the Lord - started with this huge earthquake - the 7th seal will be opened which will begin the 70th week of Daniel.

 

Any scripture that states this claim?

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

And the end of the age Jesus spoke of will be the end of THAT age, the 70th week of Daniel or the end of the Jew and Hebrew age.

 

If there is any truth to this, then it shouldn't be hard to point us to the scripture that says so, right?

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Oh, we agree that God is doing the restraining. But I will add to that:

 

Of course, the entire pre-trib teaching is based on additions and inferences, not scripture, as evidenced by the lack thereof in your post.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God is using the authority of the church to do that restraining.  He gave His authority to the church.  He will take it back after the rapture. 

 

Really?  Where do you get this from in scripture?  I can disprove this claim with scripture as well.

 

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

 

Ephesians 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

 

Does the dog wag the tail or the tail wag the dog?

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I see the end of the times of the Gentiles ( I think it began with Nebuchadnezzar) as the rapture of the church. Then God will concentrate on the Hebrews and the 70th week.

Well, Jesus has a different understanding.

• And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  Luke 21:24

The times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  And you're still here.

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but Gentiles are still running things in this world. And the church is mostly a Gentile church. Blindness has happened to the Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. 

The "fullness of the Gentiles" is not the same as the "times of the Gentiles".

Edited February 24, 2018 by Last Daze

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Well, Jesus has a different understanding.

• And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  Luke 21:24

The times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  And you're still here.

The "fullness of the Gentiles" is not the same as the "times of the Gentiles".

Care to share your timeline with us?  According to you, when do you think the times of the Gentiles ended and why?  The same question for the fullness of the Gentiles.  What makes them different?

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, OneLight said:

Care to share your timeline with us?  According to you, when do you think the times of the Gentiles ended and why?  The same question for the fullness of the Gentiles.  What makes them different?

It would help to first define "the times of the Gentiles" so that we're on the same page.  My understanding of that term is that it is a reference to the time that the gospel was being preached to all the nations (Gentiles).  It was the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that in him, all the nations would be blessed.  I base that on Galatians 3.

• The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” Galatians 3:8
• In order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.  Galatians 3:14

Jesus gives us the marker that lets us know that the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled in Luke 21:

• And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  Luke 21:24

As far as to when the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled, we don't know for sure.  But we do know that they have been fulfilled because Jerusalem is again under Israeli control not being trampled under foot by the Gentiles. 

I see "the fullness of the Gentiles" as something yet future.  The difference between the two terms is the same as the difference between sowing and reaping.  The time between them is the time when the crop is growing and maturing.

• But when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.  Mark 4:29

That's what I see as the fullness of the Gentiles coming in.  It happens when Jesus returns on the day of the Lord.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Last Daze
To be more technically precise