WHAT IS THE FALLING AWAY

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

It wasn't true faith, they weren't born again.

 

I don't disagree with that, in fact, I would say that is precisely how I see it.  However, it still does not change the fact that they believe.

 

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

But Rev 12 is about the future 70th week. Rev 12:1-5 sign came to pass on 9/23/17.

 

You're seriously going to point to your false prophecy???  

[Heb 13:8]

7 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

I don't disagree with that, in fact, I would say that is precisely how I see it.  However, it still does not change the fact that they believe.

So they believed, fell away and lost their salvation, but you agree with me, OSAS? 

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You're seriously going to point to your false prophecy???  

False, what do you mean?

[wingnut-]

1 minute ago, Heb 13:8 said:

So they believed, fell away and lost their salvation, but you agree with me, OSAS? 

 

For anyone born again, absolutely.  The Holy Spirit is our guarantee.

 

II Corinthians 5:5  He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

 

4 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

False, what do you mean?

 

False as in, nothing happened.  Not one noteworthy or remarkable event took place.  The celestial event was not even visible.  You were not raptured, the church is still here.  False as in, it should be discarded completely and rethought, from top to bottom.  Trying to repackage a failed prophecy in a new box is just going down a new rabbit hole.  It is no more believable now, than it was when you first presented it, because your understanding of Revelation 12 as being completely future, is flawed.  The information is given, so that one recognizes who the woman is, it is really that simple.

[Heb 13:8]

15 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

For anyone born again, absolutely.  The Holy Spirit is our guarantee.

II Corinthians 5:5  He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ok, so you agree then that 2 Thess 2:3 and 1 Tim 4:1 are referring to nonbelievers, those who haven't been born again.

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False as in, nothing happened.  Not one noteworthy or remarkable event took place.  The celestial event was not even visible.  You were not raptured, the church is still here.  False as in, it should be discarded completely and rethought, from top to bottom.  Trying to repackage a failed prophecy in a new box is just going down a new rabbit hole.  It is no more believable now, than it was when you first presented it, because your understanding of Revelation 12 as being completely future, is flawed. 

Nothing happened because it was a sign, not the action... http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/sign?s=t

Gen 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs (oth) to mark sacred times, and days and years,

Rev 12:1 A great sign (sémeion) appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

oth: a sign
Original Word: אוֹת
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: oth
Phonetic Spelling: (oth)
Short Definition: sign

sémeion: a sign
Original Word: σημεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sémeion
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mi'-on)
Short Definition: a sign, miracle, indication
Definition: a sign, miracle, indication, mark, token.

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The information is given, so that one recognizes who the woman is, it is really that simple.

The woman in Rev 12 is Israel, and the child being born is the body of Christ through first resurrection and rapture event. The body of Christ was conceived at Pentecost 2,000 years ago (Acts 2:1-4) and has been in gestation for 2,000 years.

Whenever a person gets saved they get put into the body of Christ, so in the mean time the child in the womb gets bigger and bigger. The first resurrection and rapture is the birth of our glorified bodies (conception/gestation/birth). 

Isa 50:1 Thus says the LORD, "Where is the certificate of divorce By which I have sent your mother away? Or to whom of My creditors did I sell you? Behold, you were sold for your iniquities, And for your transgressions your mother was sent away.

Jer 3:8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

[wingnut-]

9 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Ok, so you agree then that 2 Thess 2:3 and 1 Tim 4:1 are referring to nonbelievers

 

No, I do not agree, Luke says they believe.  They all say the same thing, one does not walk away from faith without having had faith in the first place.  What you are not accounting for is free will.  God does not abandon people, but people do abandon God.

 

15 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Nothing happened because it was a sign

 

Give one example from scripture where God gives a sign no one can see.

 

16 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

The woman in Rev 12 is Israel

 

Agreed.

 

16 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

and the child being born is the body of Christ through first resurrection and rapture event. The body of Christ was conceived at Pentecost 2,000 years ago (Acts 2:1-4) and has been in gestation for 2,000 years.

 

Disagreed.  The church has been around for 2000 years, it has not been gestating.  And your rapture event didn't happen, in case you hadn't noticed, we are all still here.  This has to be one of the most absurd conversations I have ever been part of, so on that note, I see no point in continuing.  There is a reason no one agrees with your view on Revelation 12.

 

 

[Heb 13:8]

8 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

No, I do not agree, Luke says they believe.  They all say the same thing, one does not walk away from faith without having had faith in the first place.  What you are not accounting for is free will.  God does not abandon people, but people do abandon God.

No they don't say the same thing. Matthew and Mark mention trouble and tribulation, and as we can see in Rom 8:35 even these things can't separate us. Unless God is in contradiction.

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Give one example from scripture where God gives a sign no one can see.

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

ouranos: heaven
Original Word: οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-ran-os')
Short Definition: the sky, the heaven
Definition: heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens.

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And your rapture event didn't happen, in case you hadn't noticed, we are all still here.

Right, we're still here because it was a sign, not the action... http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/sign?s=t

1 Thess 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazó) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." And her child was snatched up (harpazó) to God and to his throne.

harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Short Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery
Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

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The church has been around for 2000 years, it has not been gestating.

In regards to gestation, we have been gestating.. in a natural birth the head comes first and then the body. Jesus has ascended to heaven already, and the body is next through rapture. I know it's hard to understand, it's spiritual. God bless wingnut.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Ok, so you agree then that 2 Thess 2:3 and 1 Tim 4:1 are referring to nonbelievers, those who haven't been born again.

 

14 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

No they don't say the same thing. Matthew and Mark mention trouble and tribulation

 

Matthew or Mark did not write Thessalonians or Timothy, that was Paul.  Nice try, but changing what was being discussed is not a valid point.  If you want to make a valid point, how about addressing the actual issue that was raised many posts ago.  What faith is Paul speaking about in this passage?

 

I Timothy 4  Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

 

Shouldn't be that difficult to address if the truth is on your side.

 

18 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

ouranos: heaven
Original Word: οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-ran-os')
Short Definition: the sky, the heaven
Definition: heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens.

 

Your invisible event does not count, this is another deflection, but thanks for pointing out what I already know, and even highlighting it in red.  VISIBLE HEAVENS.  How many people was this visible to?

And I'm still waiting for you to give an example in scripture where there is an example of God giving a sign in the sky that no one can see.  Trying to point to your non-event does not qualify.  It should be obvious this is unprecedented.

 

22 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

In regards to gestation, we have been gestating.. in a natural birth the head comes first and then the body. Jesus has ascended to heaven already, and the body is next through rapture. I know it's hard to understand, it's spiritual. God bless wingnut.

 

It's not hard to understand, it is easy.  Jesus was already resurrected, and led a host of captives with Him to heaven already.  There are only two resurrections of believers, one has happened, the other is future.

 

I Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

[Heb 13:8]

10 hours ago, wingnut- said:

If you want to make a valid point, how about addressing the actual issue that was raised many posts ago.  What faith is Paul speaking about in this passage?

I Timothy 4  Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Shouldn't be that difficult to address if the truth is on your side.

All in context wingnut, less God is in contradiction? Rom 8:35.

Matt 13:21 (does not use the word believe) (it uses trouble/persecution) 
Mark 4:17 (does not use the word believe) (it uses trouble/persecution) 
Luke 8:13 (uses the word believe) (aphistémi/depart) 
Rom 8:35, 38-39 (nothing can separate us, even trouble/persecution) 
1 Tim 4:1 ( aphistémi/depart)

Matt 13:21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

 

Mark 4:17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

 

Luke 8:13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

 

Rom 8:35, 38-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

1 Tim 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

 

Luke 8:13 / Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - which for a while believe: their faith is a temporary one, like that of Simon Magus; which shows it is not true faith; for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not. The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it. The Arabic version renders it, "they believe for a small time"; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped:

 

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Matthew or Mark did not write Thessalonians or Timothy, that was Paul.  Nice try, but changing what was being discussed is not a valid point.

You mean,  the Synoptic Gospels of Matt, Mark and Luke? 

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Your invisible event does not count, this is another deflection, but thanks for pointing out what I already know, and even highlighting it in red.  VISIBLE HEAVENS.  How many people was this visible to?

And I'm still waiting for you to give an example in scripture where there is an example of God giving a sign in the sky that no one can see.  Trying to point to your non-event does not qualify.  It should be obvious this is unprecedented.

How do you see Rev 12:1-5 playing out. Where do you see it being fulfilled if not in the heavens?

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It's not hard to understand, it is easy.  Jesus was already resurrected, and led a host of captives with Him to heaven already.  There are only two resurrections of believers, one has happened, the other is future.

I Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

The word for Christ ascension is not harpazo, it's epairó. Harpazo is a rescue.

Jesus didn't need to be rescued because He already conquered the devil.

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Gestation

Hos 13:13 Pains as of a woman in childbirth come to him, but he is a child without wisdom; when the time arrives, he doesn't have the sense to come out of the womb.

Rom 8:22-25 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Gal 4:19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you,

[wingnut-]

8 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

All in context wingnut, less God is in contradiction?

 

And yet you claim He is, as evidenced again by what you highlight but fail to address.

 

9 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Matt 13:21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

 

Mark 4:17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

 

Luke 8:13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

 

Why do they fall away?  Because of trouble or persecution on account of the word.  You are arguing against your own evidence.  The difference is still found in your dismissal of free will, but you aren't going to address that are you?

 

13 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

How do you see Rev 12:1-5 playing out.

 

It already played out, that is the whole point, it is a historical viewpoint.

 

15 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

You mean,  the Synoptic Gospels of Matt, Mark and Luke?

 

No, I mean taking a response I make in regards to passages from Thessalonians and Timothy and trying to paint it as a reference to Matthew or Mark.  That is called being deceptive, which is the best you can do since you can't address the points made.

 

17 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

The word for Christ ascension is not harpazo, it's epairó. Harpazo is a rescue.

Jesus didn't need to be rescued because He already conquered the devil.

 

I never said Jesus needed to be rescued, I am talking about the host of captives He led out of Abraham's bosom.

 

Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
    and he gave gifts to men.”

9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

That would be all these people.

 

Matthew 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

 

 

[Heb 13:8]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

And yet you claim He is, as evidenced again by what you highlight but fail to address.

God isn't in contradiction, man is. Who wrote Rom 8:35, 38-39, God or man?

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Why do they fall away?  Because of trouble or persecution on account of the word.

Trouble, persecution and the Word of God are all a part of the Christian faith. So if they fall away they never had saving faith wingnut. They failed the test.

Matt 13:21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Mark 4:17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Luke 8:13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

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It already played out, that is the whole point, it is a historical viewpoint.

If it already played out 2,000 years ago, then who was (raptured) harpazo'd in Rev 12:5?

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No, I mean taking a response I make in regards to passages from Thessalonians and Timothy and trying to paint it as a reference to Matthew or Mark.  That is called being deceptive, which is the best you can do since you can't address the points made.

OSAS is not deception wingnut, it's truth. Always remember, it's your belief that saves you, not works. John 3:16, Rom 10:9-10.

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I never said Jesus needed to be rescued, I am talking about the host of captives He led out of Abraham's bosom.

Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
    and he gave gifts to men.”

9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

That would be all these people.

Matthew 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

I would say that's incorrect. The word ascended in Eph 4:8 is anabainó, not harpazo. Harpazo is in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5 (both rapture verses). God bless.