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what is portion of our attitude that thinks of Israel?


lokp

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4 hours ago, lokp said:

interested to know how you succeeded in 2 yrs after 48 yrs had failed? 

Well I don't know how to share of that in a few words. BUT  I must correct the idea that I succeeded. I may have been used, and I certainly put in hours and hours and hours of effort into the mission of a man from that congregation that came to me burdened that this be done in his lifetime, as it is the first mission for every congregation to establish a separate place of burial for the Jews of the congregation.

 It also involved a well known rabbi whom almost caused my career to come to an early end  a few years before when I used him at his request to give the main talk at the 1969 Memorial Day ceremonies of which  I was in charge. I had the president of the city council, the various branches of armed forces including the US Coast guard with their helicopters to fly wreaths out over the Pacific ocean,  Air Force missing man fly overs, you name it we had it, including a bag piper. The Dutch counsel represented the UN forces. Plus a RCC priest, a protestant cleric, and  this rabbi.

The rabbi complained that he was always given just the benediction never the main speech. So I gave that to him. It was a most wonderful speech. It was also a trap for me as it  managed to  rail against the President of the USA Lyndon Johnson, and the war  at Vietnam. Well I nearly had myself a heart attack out there in the sun rays of that day. I figured, well I'm unemployed.

The VFW went ballistic, my employers had meetings, it went on and on. I kept my job once they decided to their satisfaction that I was not part of the speech itself.

 I got the task of healing relations with the vfw which was done  over time too. That is all background.

It was that very rabbi's congregation that had never been able to come to agreement about having their cemetery. One of their congregants came to me and started educating me to their plight, their need, and their then 48 year history of failure to accomplish the number one task they  were supposed to accomplish.

Our business owners dismissed my chances of doing anything with them, turned out one  was emotionally against having anything to do with any Jew. But; I being really just still young, stubborn, curious, and  determined, went for it. I learned, and I learned more, all from this one determined congregation member. I met and I met and finally on the day of breakthrough after two years and many meetings with board members  and much of the congregation, my RCC boss stepped right into the agreement signing  office where I  had all papers ready and tried to blow up the deal. He thought he had so ticked off the Jews and successfully killed the deal  that He got up and left.

I managed to get them to sign anyway, and went right behind my rcc owner into the GM's office, as he was blaring to the GM  that I didn't have the deal, I stepped up kinda walked right into and through him and said to my GM, countersign with me, this is the deal. My GM signed. And the Cemetery was  established. Plus a new commitment for all the funerals for their congregation. They would be agreeing we could properly perform funeral dirctor service for their members and our commitment was all our personnel were to undergo training at their congregation into their needs traditions and rites. Also got agreement for our cemetery grounds crews to perform Sunday burials!

With that  we also went and set up with  a Greek Orthodox Church group something similar, and then  Our group managed to bust the RCC demand that  their members use RCC cemeteries, and priests would come out an bless the interment sites. That is another long long story of which I had a much smaller part, but it was one where the then  long in power local monsignor telephoned me one day to just read me the riot act.  At the end of it all i think even the priests were happy with the changes in the church policy. All seems so long ago.

It was fun stuff back then. I  got to schmooze with a lot of very interesting people, spend a lot of luncheon time at the country club, and learn an awful lot about many faiths and many cultures. - including  the Korean culture that had moved in  to the area.

All the time I was an atheist having no need of any god whatsoever, seeing no reason that anyone else did either. I just filled a void, was someone of much  efficiency there to fill their need.

 I had no need  of God myself- until God declared enough it is time, and turned my life upside down inside out,  showing me otherwise.  I broke to my own repentance of my arrogant sin against Him and was made a kicking and screaming I don't want to go Christian.

I resisted mightily. I had thought I was doing great at debating and feinting jabs at the Holy Spirit when He said, ENOUGH it is now period, or it is done. Somehow that "or it is done" part got my attention.  I suddenly realized what I was debating against, and I broke, and was turned about instantly. I was Christian, I  knew Jesus as my Lord and savior right then and there.

 That's been some 35  years now, and four careers later. including the last 14 years employed by a Church and Christian School till my recent injury made me retire, well least for now. Maybe I will heal up and find  good service to do.

Sorry for the long old man's stories, but hey you asked. Plus I have insomnia with this deep stinging pain going on so why not hit the keyboard some? I'm sitting here waiting for sunrise anyway.

 

In all that happens it is God that is sovereign. 

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(but the anti messiah will first rise  , as you know .    and as JESUS told the jews, )

Dears, please correct me if I am wrong , but I feel that the Anti Messiah is already around , it is the prevailing state of the world nowadays, everything I see around is against Christ, many leaders and false prophets have appeared in the past and present time and still their ideologies and teachings are against Christ and his Salvation.

God bless

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4 hours ago, Stephan said:

it is the prevailing state of the world nowadays, everything I see around is against Christ

The world never, and never will be favorable to Christ... Because the world cannot receive truth.

"the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him;
but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." - John 14:17

 

What we are seeing is that the lie is growing stronger, those in the world prefer their sins and do not want to repent then they are receiving another christ that will tell them what they want (lies), instead of what they need (truth).

"And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." - 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

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Yes you are right, now I understand.

God bless you.

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12 hours ago, secretopossumcabal said:

My point is that if there was no Israel then God has the power to create another nation to serve him, what he created once, he can do again. Therefor it makes no sense to put Israel above Christ. Do not limit the Lord who has done all things and who can do away with all things just as quickly as they came. 

Israel was created and chosen to serve God, not the other way around. 

Israel is a canvas, and an artist can pick up a canvas and he can put it down again. Creation is not greater than creator, and Christ is God, the master of that canvas, the canvas has no value without the artist, just as Israel, when they abandoned God, they had no value to God, and so God surrendered them to foreign rulers until they came back to him.

God most certainly has the power to pick up another canvas, this is not me saying that Israel is not important, but that God rules over Israel and that the portrait of Christ can well come through any canvas if God so willed it.

Creation will never be greater than creator. 

 

Israel is not greater than God, very much agree, and we need to be careful of running away with the things of God in our flesh.  But the Jews are still beloved for the sake of the patriarchs, and they have not been cast away irrevocably, and it is promised that blindness in part has only happened to them UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles, and then Israel will return to the Lord.   We seem to be seeing the times of the Gentiles wrapping up now.....formerly Christian nations are coming quickly under judgment.......exactly like the ensample did when it fell away formerly.  But we need to be mindful that the antichrist counterfeit is coming first.....and I'm afraid Israel is also sadly going to be involved in these things first before her sight is finally restored.

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12 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Romans 11:12

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

Romans 11:15

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Glory to the Lord, I just love these verses......think they are worth posting again, and pondering the meaning.  Just think, the fullness/acceptance/restoration of Israel is going to mean even MORE glorious spiritual riches for the nations than her casting away brought.....the birth of the church.  Is it possible this could be a glimpse of the glory of the millennium?  The "healing of the nations".......global revival.....?

(AFTER antichrist and the false prophets of Baal have their go......remember the counterfeit clearly comes first according to 2 Thess. 2.)

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1 hour ago, Heleadethme said:

(AFTER antichrist and the false prophets of Baal have their go......remember the counterfeit clearly comes first according to 2 Thess. 2.)

TODAY ,  as it is written,  the wicked shall become more wicked....  (and the righteous become more righteous, as written)

TODAY,  test everything, for wickedness engulfs the world and society ... (except for the remnant,  the few, the redeemed)

TODAY,  the counterfeit,  the false gospel ,  is more prevalent than the truth around the world including the usa.

Don't "wait" at ease as if things are okay TODAY,  because they aren't...  the whole world is under death sentence ....

Yet remember and be in Christ,  have perfect PEACE / SHALOM  !  with JOY that no man can take from you,

in spite of much persecution, as Christ Jesus clearly said in YHVH'S WORD / THE BIBLE.

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11 hours ago, Neighbor said:

I don't know how to share of that in a few words

I am working my way thro this post, don't add more till I digest this :) Aside I mentioned previously about coping emotionally with difficult things...I cannot write a long lifestory but the word "prozac" will enlighten enough. Shalom

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12 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Maybe I will heal up and find  good service to do.

I pray you do Sir, can I  add this...

their then 48 year history of failure to accomplish the number one task they  were supposed to accomplish. - twice you said burying the dead is top priority for these churchfolk...why is that so important? Burying is only 3 day affair over here in New Zealand

was made a kicking and screaming I don't want to go Christian. - isn't Ps 23:2 true!

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10 hours ago, lokp said:

I pray you do Sir, can I  add this...

their then 48 year history of failure to accomplish the number one task they  were supposed to accomplish. - twice you said burying the dead is top priority for these churchfolk...why is that so important? Burying is only 3 day affair over here in New Zealand

was made a kicking and screaming I don't want to go Christian. - isn't Ps 23:2 true!

Hi lokp,  

Each group had their own motivation, but in general the Jew is to be separate from the Gentle. Even in death they are to be fenced off from the gentle.  I negotiated a road and a sidewalk as being sufficient separation, instead of a fence. They studied, talked had their rabbinical discussions and prayers, and over time decided  the road was plenty of separation from the buried gentiles, but that the sidewalk needed to be a full two interment sites wide. They somehow found two widths would suffice instead of a vertical physical fence of what height I now forget. Seems they had formulated a ratio that satisfied them at the time. 

One major  hang up was, who was going to pay for the sidewalk and the land taken up never to be used for burials? I compromised, they bought all those interment sites under the sidewalk never to be used at full price,  while  the cemetery paid for the concrete. I had to negotiate with my company owners  that  not having to maintain a fence nor lawn  on those spaces would more than cover the cash outlay for the concrete. It went that way for the two years of back and forth.  One rather silly seeming issue after another, but they were real concerns to the parties.

The one year ritual of grieving was/is pretty precise for the Jewish community, including the leaving of the burial site unmarked for the first year, then having an unveiling of a marker rite, that also marked the end of the grieving period. There are several steps along the way for that year. We had to perform Sunday burials  too so that  there could be burial within 24 hours of death- where allowed by law and burial permit. Coroner's office trumping that requirement if they were investigating.

The Roman catholic Church is in the burial business they own cemeteries, and so  their burial rites were limited to  families that buy  burial sites in their cemeteries. it was considered to be a privilege and a duty for the family.  No burial at a Catholic cemetery  then no burial rites, no high mass, no priest led rosary service. Rosary practices have also since changed.

And the Greeks well they just thought it would be grand to have their own portion too. Kind of hidden in the mix was the economics. Costs go up so buying ahead of need has it's appeal. And a group owning ahead of time and reselling to their own  does end up providing revenue to the group or church.

What was really  nasty  was the over 220 disinterments from  Catholic cemeteries and re-interment with us. The numbers of that one totally  surprised. Our families were buying mausoleum crypts at undeveloped prices, waiting for us to build a mausoleum and when we had they would come to us and want their deceased family members all at Catholic Cemeteries  removed and placed in our now completed mausoleum! Oh boy, geesh.

The Catholic run cemeteries had restrictions as to who could be buried at their cemeteries, and so they had  the policy and contract that if the site was not used they would buy it back from the owners. The families figured out they could buy from us to have their loved ones closer to them and also get a refund. What a mess. but it also broke the church. The church changed their own rulings about  having to be buried at a catholic cemetery in order for the site to be blessed and services rendered by the church.

I would try to talk families into not moving the already buried members of their families and into just  making  one of our sites a cenotaph instead, but no they wanted to have the bodies moved. Anyway, it all helped keep me thinking wow, this is nuts, what God? What church? And so It was easy for me to reject religion and God. I was an atheist just being as efficient as I could be in  providing service to all that had  need of funeral or cemetery service provisions.  

The Catholics were of two opposing  groups too. One Italian and one Yugoslav. They did not get along either. One weekend morning as I arrived at work I found a "private" family mausoleum at the cemetery had been dynamited. Seems there was some discord between the groups that would extend in their battles even beyond death itself. They would blow up each other's crypts.

 I had started in the industry at age 17 because I couldn't get a real job under age 18 due to State labor laws. I worked nights answering phones and making removals  "first calls" at a local mortuary. Funeral directing and then cemetery operation and sales  soon became a career path of some 20 plus  years.

Then God up and moved me, and turned me about in a rather harsh fashion  challenging me to see that He is. And, that I  need to turn about and be His bond-servant. I fought against it until I was absolutely overwhelmed, at which moment I instantly  became Christian and not only a servant but a bond-servant. Life is even weirder than death, but what a privilege to be saved out for eternal life with our creator, our Lord and savior Jesus. Amazing that His grace extends to cover such as humans can be- totally depraved all. Covered made pure in his willing sacrifice.

PS- Oh and then we had Muslems come into the area, and yes they did want to face the rising sun, be buried immediately without casket, vault,  burial site liner. We sold them their  own east facing configuration, compromised on  a wood slab under the body of the dead and a protective shell over the body to keep the burial site from collapsing and causing injury to any one walking over it. All in a day's work in the industry.

PPS-Koreans were the hardest because of the very different concept of owning a mountain for burial and having to make contracts in Korean language make sense. We had to make sure they didn't think they had  bought the whole hill when they had bought a burial site. But they did want to be high on the hill and yes separate from the rest of us.

 Finally-And then there was the little lady that hardly spoke English that had flown from Japan with the remains of her long deceased mother. She had her in a paper grocery bag on my desk. I thought she had cremated remains and wanted to  have them placed  in a columbarium. But no, she had mom in a bag. - had brought her bones from a filled up cemetery in Japan where she could not afford to pay for use of the cemetery site there any longer. Oh well, sure we can be of help.  Do you have any paperwork so I can get a permit? This banner in Japanese language eh? Okay, I will go to the health department and work it out with them, no permit,  bones in a bag on my desk. should be easy,- not!

---------

Yes Psalm 23 is all true, course if you are Roman Catholic it is Psalm 22.

We had memorial folders with Psalm 23 on them except for our Roman Catholic services where it was the same Psalm but  in the RC English language Bible it is not Ps 23 but Ps 22. Even there there is difference to note and traditions and rules to learn and follow.

The 23rd Psalm was the basis  for funeral presentation number 3 of 4 that one pastor I called upon often to officiate funerals would do. He was a really kind and excellent servant of God, though again, at the time I was an atheist.  He would read that Psalm. I would hear it as the director at funerals he officiated for me many times a week  for years. He would do an exegesis of it. I heard it over and over and over. All pointless to me personally then.

Today for me it has such depth of meaning. I can see it feel it and live it, secure in the faith of Jesus. Funny how God has things aligned always.

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