Michael's relationship to the middle of the week

[Daniel 11:36]

"The conclusion is, then, that this "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis) started in the First Century A.D. even though it doesn't end until the sun, moon, and stars signs, which are yet in our future! So, how long does that make this unprecedented "great tribulation?"

 

You are wrong about the tribulation period starting in the first century and lasting for the past 2000 years

The prophecy record ends with the Lord leaving the earth at the end of the 69th week and His actions beginning again for the 70th week still to come .... there is no measuring of this time lapse given in scripture over the last 2000 years

When He is ready to bring His judgment and wrath upon a world of unbelief the 70th week will begin

All of scripture precisely substantiates this truth

And this setting precisely fits Daniel 9:24-27

The Lord will confirm His covenant that He has with a believing remnant of Israel during the 70th week

And the other prince [Abaddon/Apollyon in the human little horn and king of the north] will attack and desecrate Israel at the middle of the 70th week decreed

This prince will fail, and will be sent to the Lord's lake of fire at the end of the battle of Armageddon [Revelation 19:19-20]

Your story is fabricated and not given in scripture 

[Steve Conley]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Of course I read your comments! However, to be honest, I really didn't need to read them since I already knew them by heart, having heard them almost all of the 60 years of my life! My reply is to establish a certain amount of agreement before branching into the portions of which differ between us.

If you're a typical, premillennial, pre-tribulational rapturist, then we should start with the fact that Yeshua` shall come and reign for the next 1000 years - the Millennium. THAT'S His Kingdom, and like His ancestor David said, it's actually His FATHER'S Kingdom of which He is the Representative King.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Retrobyter, thank you for a much better explanation of your understanding of the events under discussion.

I do have to say that if you had read anything I have said, you would have no confusion about whether I was a pre-triber or not. I have been teaching against pre-tribulationism throughout all my comments. I am solidly pre-wrath in my eschatological model. I do not believe in a seven year tribulation period. I teach a great tribulation that shares ~3 1/2 years with the beginning of the day of the Lord. In this final 3 1/2 years, first there is great tribulation then it is cut short to save some of the elect alive by the cosmic sign and a great earthquake followed by Christ's return in the clouds, the first resurrection, and the catching up of the saints which remain alive and those raised in the resurrection. It is after these things on the very same day that God begins to pour out His wrath in the trumpet and vial judgments upon the unbelieving world.

I have a few questions which I need to ask to help me understand where you are coming from.

1) According to your eschatological model what relationship does 2 Thes 2:1-10 have with Mathew 24:15? If you say it has none, than to what does it pertain?

2) When did Michael stand up and to what does the time of unparalleled trouble that Daniel records in Dan 12:1 refer?

3) What (in detail) is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet if it isn't the desecration of the temple by the future man of sin?

I believe I'm starting understand your thinking. When I can repeat it back to you, I will know I can at that point begin to evaluate it in light of the Holy Scriptures.

Hallelujah

[Retrobyter]

On 3/1/2018 at 10:33 PM, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Retrobyter, thank you for a much better explanation of your understanding of the events under discussion.

I do have to say that if you had read anything I have said, you would have no confusion about whether I was a pre-triber or not. I have been teaching against pre-tribulationism throughout all my comments. I am solidly pre-wrath in my eschatological model. I do not believe in a seven year tribulation period. I teach a great tribulation that shares ~3 1/2 years with the beginning of the day of the Lord. In this final 3 1/2 years, first there is great tribulation then it is cut short to save some of the elect alive by the cosmic sign and a great earthquake followed by Christ's return in the clouds, the first resurrection, and the catching up of the saints which remain alive and those raised in the resurrection. It is after these things on the very same day that God begins to pour out His wrath in the trumpet and vial judgments upon the unbelieving world.

I have a few questions which I need to ask to help me understand where you are coming from.

1) According to your eschatological model what relationship does 2 Thes 2:1-10 have with Mathew 24:15? If you say it has none, than to what does it pertain?

2) When did Michael stand up and to what does the time of unparalleled trouble that Daniel records in Dan 12:1 refer?

3) What (in detail) is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet if it isn't the desecration of the temple by the future man of sin?

I believe I'm starting [to] understand your thinking. When I can repeat it back to you, I will know I can at that point begin to evaluate it in light of the Holy Scriptures.

Hallelujah

Shabbat shalom, Steve Conley.

I'm going to start with your third question first:

3) What (in detail) is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet if it isn't the desecration of the temple by the future man of sin?

The "abomination of desolation" is a poor translation of what Daniel's book recorded. It's a "poor translation" because it takes a couple of words that most don't fully understand but rhyme well to make a LABEL. And, by "label," I mean a title for a thing or event that gives that thing or event a variable name so they can use it like a variable without having to know the value of that variable. It's a title for what some assume to be the "midpoint of the seven-year tribulation period" without actually investigating the meanings of the words themselves.

Let's go back to the Hebrew of the last part of Daniel 9:27:

vach’tsiy = and-in-middle
hashaavuwa` = [of]-the-seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-cause-to-end
zevach = sacrifice
uwminchah = and-offering
v’`al = and-for
k’naf = a-spreading-out-[like-a-wing]
shiquwtsiym = [of]-abominations
m’shomeem = he-shall-make-desolate
v’`ad- = and-until
kaalaah = completion
v’nech’raatsaah = and-that-decision
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al- = upon
shomeem: = desolate:

First, "shiquwtsiym" is a transliteration of the plural of the word "shiqquwts." In Strong's dictionary we find:

8251 shiqquwts (shik-koots'). Or shiqquts {shik-koots'}; from shaaqats; disgusting, i.e. Filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol -- abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).

Also, "m’shomeem" is the third-person, singular, future tense of the verb "shaameem":

8074 shaameem (shaw-mame'). A primitive root; to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. Devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense) -- make amazed, be astonied, (be an) astonish(-ment), (be, bring into, unto, lay, lie, make) desolate(-ion, places), be destitute, destroy (self), (lay, lie, make) waste, wonder.

So, the three word phrase in Hebrew means "(for) a spreading out of disgusting things, He shall stun (them) senseless!" Again, the combination of the two back-to-back nouns "knaf" and "shiquwtsiym" is a "noun construct state," usually translated with "of" between them and the second noun "taking a back seat to" the first noun - "a-spread-out-wing of disgusting-things." (It has NOTHING to do with a "wing of the temple," as some have interpreted it.)

This shows what the Messiah did to the P'rushiym and Ts'duqqiym (Pharisees and Sadducees, or "Separatists" and "Righteous Ones") in Matthew 23:37-39. The phrase as rendered in the Greek for Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14, "to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos," means "the disgusting-thing of the devastation." The Greek word "hestos," coming from "histeemi," means "standing" when referring to a person, "erected" when referring to a thing, but means "established" or "appointed" when referring to an event or abstract idea. Here, Yeshua` is warning His disciples in Matthew 24 (and Mark 13) about the RESULT of leaving the Jews desolate - the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. (Note: I use "e" for epsilon, "ee" for eta, "o" for omicron, and "oo" for omega in transliteration of Greek.)

The words may SEEM like unfamiliar words thrown together for a LABEL, "the Abomination of Desolation," but these words are much more common in Hebrew and MEANT something - "the disgusting thing as a result of the stunning the Messiah did to them when He left them 'desolate.'"

It WAS still future to them (40 years into the future) when Yeshua` said these words to them on the Mount of Olives, but it's not future to us now. It's the past - recorded history.

It's also not a reference to Daniel 11: That was a whole synopsis of human history that Gavri'el gave to Daniel from the time of Daniel in Persia to the time of the Messiah! That time period included Cyrus the Great, Xerxes I (Ahasuerus), Artaxerxes I, and all the intrigue down to Artaxerxes V (11:2), who was conquered by Alexander the Great (11:3). Then it briefly mentions how the Macedonian Empire was divided to his four generals (11:4), continuing on with the Seleucid Empire (of Syria) - the "king of the north" - and the Ptolemaic Empire (of Egypt) - the "king of the south," we have much intrigue and changing of hands listed from Seleucus I "Nicator" to Seleucus IV "Philopator" (11:5-21). Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" comes on the scene in verse 21, and the chapter remains talking about him and his "exploits" until the Maccabees (the Hasmonians) overcome him (11:22-35). Lastly, the chapter speaks of Herod the Great who was the king of Judaea under Julius Caesar and later under Octavian, Caesar Augustus. Thus, verses 36-45 are about Herod the Great with a short excerpt in verses 40-43 speaking of Octavian in the bigger picture. (See more at Daniel 11 at HereALittleThereALittle.net.)

So, when Gavri'el said in verse 31:

Daniel 11:31 (KJV)

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

He's talking about setting up the statue of Zeus in the Temple and polluting the Sanctuary; BUT, this happened back on the 15th of Kislev, in December 168 BCE.

So, now your second question:

2) When did Michael stand up and to what does the time of unparalleled trouble that Daniel records in Dan 12:1 refer?

Daniel 12 begins with the coming of the Messiah, which actually was started in 11:37, when Gavri'el said,

Daniel 11:37 (KJV)

37 Neither shall he (Herod) regard the God of his fathers (Idumeans or Edomites, the children of Esau, son of Isaac, son of Abraham), nor the desire of women (to be the bearer of the Messiah), nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

This resulted in the attempt to kill the Messiah by killing all the boys 2 years old and younger in and around the Tomb of Rachel, near Beit-Lechem (House of Bread, "Bethlehem").

So, when we read,

Daniel 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

we have the condensed version, which already includes the fact of Daniel 9:27 that the Messiah shall leave them "desolate" until the time of the end. THAT is when Micha'el rises up and begins to defend the children of Israel, for there shall be a time of trouble, beginning shortly after the Messiah leaves until He comes back again, and resurrects His people.

Finally, your last FIRST question:

1) According to your eschatological model what relationship does 2 Thes 2:1-10 have with Mathew 24:15? If you say it has none, than to what does it pertain?

I never said there wouldn't be a "beast" (as Revelation calls him) or this "man who disregards the Torah." It's just that the prophecies given to Daniel by Gavri'el are NOT about this beast, this Torah-breaker! I'm open to exploring this more with you, but this is a matter that has to do with the children of Israel, not Gentiles, even "Christians."

[Retrobyter]

On 3/1/2018 at 6:20 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

"The conclusion is, then, that this "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis) started in the First Century A.D. even though it doesn't end until the sun, moon, and stars signs, which are yet in our future! So, how long does that make this unprecedented "great tribulation?"

 

You are wrong about the tribulation period starting in the first century and lasting for the past 2000 years

The prophecy record ends with the Lord leaving the earth at the end of the 69th week and His actions beginning again for the 70th week still to come .... there is no measuring of this time lapse given in scripture over the last 2000 years

Shalom, Daniel 11:36.

Unless you're trying to get the "last word" and not truly trying to debate a point, try using the "Quote" button at the end of the post you're answering.

Sorry this is late, but I never received a notification that you said a thing.

Actually, if you count out the Sevens, the 69th Seven ended with the baptism of Yeshua` by Yochanan the Immerser. The seventieth Seven started with Yeshua`s offer of the Kingdom to Israel. It was HE who put the "gap" between the first and the second halves of the seventieth Seven by pronouncing the Jews of Jerusalem "desolate" (Matthew 23:37-39). It will be HE who starts the seconf half of the seventieth Seven when He returns! And, the seventieth Seven has NOTHING directly to do with the "Tribulation!" HE said the words when it will begin again:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till (until) ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

THAT'S why there is a "gap!" They chose to crucify their King, and He postponed His Kingdom when He left this earth. He'll not return until they can WELCOME Him back as God's Messiah to be their King! The "thlipsis megalee" is what they could anticipate until they lost their stubborn streak. It's the "Time of Jacob's Trouble," a GREAT TRIBULATION which will be punctuated with individual persecutions so as not to wipe out the children of Israel totally but to DISCIPLINE them - to INSTRUCT them - to TEACH them - to RESPECT God's Choice for their King!

On 3/1/2018 at 6:20 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

When He is ready to bring His judgment and wrath upon a world of unbelief the 70th week will begin

All of scripture precisely substantiates this truth

Nope. That's not what determines when He shall return. Sorry, Gentile, but He said, "Ye shall not see me henceforth, until YE (the Jews) shall say, 'Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH!'" "Welcome Comer in the name of YHWH!"

On 3/1/2018 at 6:20 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

And this setting precisely fits Daniel 9:24-27

Sorry, but Daniel 9:24-26 have been fulfilled, and Daniel 9:27 is only partly fulfilled and the rest shall be fulfilled when Yeshua` returns.

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy (Daniel's) people and upon thy holy city,

(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy. 

25 Know therefore and understand, that ...
from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem ...
unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people (of the prince that shall come (object of the preposition = Vespasian) = the Romans) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And
he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week (Luke 1:30-33):  and
in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Hebrews 9-10, they ended with His death), and
for the overspreading of abominations he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (Matthew 23:37-39), and
that (the judgments/decisions) determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the ones the Messiah named "desolate").

On 3/1/2018 at 6:20 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

The Lord will confirm His covenant that He has with a believing remnant of Israel during the (latter half of the) 70th week

Right...

On 3/1/2018 at 6:20 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

And the other prince [Abaddon/Apollyon in the human little horn and king of the north] will attack and desecrate Israel at the middle of the 70th week decreed

This prince will fail, and will be sent to the Lord's lake of fire at the end of the battle of Armageddon [Revelation 19:19-20]

Nope. You've mixed several things mentioned in Scripture into this ONE hodge-podge of a person you all choose to call the "Antichrist."

The "other prince" I assume you take from Daniel 9:26, but that's not the right person. That was the Roman general Vespasian in the First Century A.D. who later became the Emperor of Rome.

Abaddown/Apolluoon was the name of the king of the locusts in Revelation 9. This is a name given to that king of the locusts because his time would be so short (only 5 months). The names mean "DESTRUCTION," not "Destroyer."

The "king of the north" I assume you take from Daniel 11, and that's not the right person, either! That "king of the north" in Syria was one of the leaders of the Seleucid Empire, if not Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" himself, or if you chose it from the latter part of Daniel 11, it would have been Caesar Augustus of Rome. Neither of these are this "Antichrist" of the future that YOU paint!

The ONLY person who could fit the bill for a future antagonist would be the "little horn" of the "beast with seven heads and ten horns."

On 3/1/2018 at 6:20 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Your story is fabricated and not given in scripture 

Hmph! Better than YOUR fabrication!

[Daniel 11:36]

"Nope. You've mixed several things mentioned in Scripture into this ONE hodge-podge of a person you all choose to call the "Antichrist."

 

Revelation [13:1-4; 17:8-18]

 

The Bible is not hodge-podge son .... dump your story and read the Bible

You have created a mess

Edited March 5, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Nope. You've mixed several things mentioned in Scripture into this ONE hodge-podge of a person you all choose to call the "Antichrist."

 

Revelation [13:1-4; 17:8-18]

 

The Bible is not hodge-podge son .... dump your story and read the Bible

You have created a mess

Shalom, Daniel 11:36.

Don't call me "son"; you're not old enough. I have read the Bible, and what I find fascinating is how simple it is when you look at matters from the right perspective. Even with the "New Testament," the Bible is a HEBREW book! It's written by the children of Israel, for the children of Israel, and tells of a Messiah to be Israel's King named Yeshua` Natsratiy, the physical manifestation of God, called God's Son. He shall be God's representative in flesh and bones to reign over God's Kingdom, not just for a thousand years, but FOREVER.

There's no "mess" here; I'm just trying to straighten out the mess that "Christians" have made of things for the last 2,000 years! Mistakes have been made and over the years COMPOUNDED to create the goofy interpretations that I've been hearing here EVERY DAY!

You're right; the Bible is NOT hodge-podge; it's the goofy intepretations of the Scriptures that are built upon other goofy interpretations of the Scriptures until this ridiculous house of cards falls of its OWN weight! This concept of the "Antichrist" is one such house of cards. Get back to the Bible as it was written!

[Daniel 11:36]

"Don't call me "son"; you're not old enough"

 

I am 75 and have been a Bible teacher for over 55 years .... so do not tell me that I am not old enough

Your story is is a fabriction on this issue and untrue 

[Diaste]

On 2/18/2018 at 9:15 PM, Steve Conley said:

 The revelation of the man of sin (2Thess 2:3-10)

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

In Paul's instruction to the Thessalonians, he tells them that before the day of Christ can come there must be a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed. He also mentions that there is one who is withholding the revelation of the man of sin and that they, the Thessalonians,  knew who it was. This revelation would involve the man of sin sitting in the temple and shewing himself to be God. Paul also says that this Antichrist shall receive power from Satan. 

We already know from the previous passages we looked at that the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of the week and it begins the great tribulation. Here we see further details concerning the defiling of the temple and learn of one hindering the work of the mystery of iniquity. It is said that this hindering will continue "until he be taken out of the way." It is interesting to note that the last Greek word in verse seven is "mesos" which means middle even though it is translated "the way". It is as if Paul is saying that the restrainer will continue to hinder until the middle. I wonder what middle he was referring to. Could it be the middle of the week? Could this restrainer be Michael who is associated with the middle of the week?

I believe Michael is the restrainer of 2Thes 2.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hi Steve,

Good morning from a brother in the faith! I read a lot of your posts and I do appreciate the solid ground on which you stand. It's both refreshing and comforting to hear sincerity and truth concerning our Lord Jesus!

Even though your OP is the one to which I'm replying, I'm really addressing many people, should they choose to be in the audience. 

I don't know why this should be but it's ubiquitous that either Micheal or the Holy Spirit is the restrainer in 2 Thess 2. I have heard it myself a hundred times over the years. It's not the right interpretation but somehow people believe it all the same. So lets dig in. My comments will be in blue, scripture in black.

Conventional wisdom holds that Micheal is the with holder of the man of sin in 2 Thess 2. Some think it's the Holy Spirit. In truth a 'he' is being withheld by a 'what' and it's not the man of sin that's being withheld; it's the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the elect withheld by the events of the apostasy and the beast declaring himself god.

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

The context is set. The following verses are all about the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 

It's pretty clear the Thessalonians had been troubled about this and they were hearing some contradictory reports. Paul is assuring them the Day has not come no matter what they have heard from any source, even forged letters. Relax Thessalonian brethren, the day is not here, you did not miss the gathering.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

We are still in the context of the first verse, "...the coming of our Lord Jesus, and our gathering together to Him...". Two things have to occur before the coming of the Lord and the gathering: the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin. I'm sure we're in agreement to this point. Super simple and clear enough that even my head understands.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

So Paul is giving the details of what the man of sin will do. No doubt so the acts of this man are clear and won't be mistaken for something else. In our time of national identity and 'independence' these acts will be shocking to say the least. Maybe during the Daniel 2 empires this would have been the norm, but in the 3rd millennium? Not only do these acts from v 4 take a whole lot of arrogance but what power is wielded to support such claims and actions?   

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 

Calling to remembrance the Thessalonians memory of that which they should have already known. Now how is this, really? Paul is still alive, the Thessalonian congregation had just been established, and they forgot so quickly? Not only that, but there were false doctrines going about and even forged letters in the apostles name, which the people were believing, only barely removed from Paul's last visit. These people were very close in time to the source of truth and they were already falling away.  No wonder the church is in it's current state.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 

The disputed verse. Several problems with common interpretations of Micheal as the withholder. First the context. It has not changed. If we do away with the parentheticals, those things not directly mentioning the context of verse 1,  the first few verses of 2 Thess would read like this: 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him,That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  And now ye know what with holds that he might be revealed in his time. 

Reading thus we see the coming of the Lord Jesus is on hold for two events, the onset and continuing apostasy of the church and the rise of the man-god. A second point is the 'what withholds' in v 6. This is 'katecho', means to hold back. There is no personal pronoun here. This is simply an impediment to the 'he' in verse 6. If it was Micheal, or the Holy Spirit, then a name or a least a personal pronoun should appear as in, "...now you know WHO withholds that HE might be revealed...". Personal pronouns are in use several times in 2 Thess 2:1-7, and the name of the Holy Spirit and Micheal are well known to Paul. Paul, a scholar superior to all modern scholars, learned directly from the Lord Jesus  himself, probably did not make a mistake when not preceding  'katecho' with 'autos', as it's events that are waiting to occur before Jesus comes again, not a Holy personality leaving so the beast can rise. This verse, "And now ye know what with holds that he might be revealed in his time." is really just a concise iteration of verses 1-3.

A third point concerns antecedents. Working backwards from verse 6 the only possible antecedent to 'katecho' (of some troublesome condition or circumstance by which one is held as it were bound) are the events of v. 3, as verses 4 and 5 are parenthetical, and the direct antecedent to v. 3 is the day of Christ; all falling under the umbrella of the only context of verses 1-7, the coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering together to Him. This shows the correct understanding of the text; The day of Christ and the gathering is being with held by the events of the apostasy and the rebellion of the man-god.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: 

No explanation needed.

only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

But this fragment deserves a fair amount of attention. The translation from the Greek to the Kings English has been shamelessly butchered. Ok, maybe God just hid this until we near the time of fulfillment and it wasn't really an evisceration of the original text, but I'm not sure why or if.  I have found other instances where it looks like the translation was a preference and had no bearing on the intent or concepts of the passage, but this is an outstanding example. In the original this fragment mirrors verses 1-6, to wit:

This verse looks like it has not only been misunderstood (by me) but mistranslated as well. Behold a new reality:

KJV:                       only         he who now       letteth        [will let],

Koine Greek:        monon           arti               katecho       heos

Literal English:      Merely      just now        hold fast        until 

 

KJV:                         until               he be taken             out of               the way. 

Koine Greek:          heos                 ginomai                    ek                     mesos

Literal English:       until               to emerge           from out of            middle.

 

‘Ginomai’ (he be taken)

Definition

to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being, to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen, of events, to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage, of men appearing in public, to be made, finished, of miracles, to be performed, wrought, to become, be made.

‘Mesos’ (the way)

Definition

middle, the midst, in the midst of, amongst.

These are the two most important points from the verse in question and they completely change the understanding of 2 Thess 2:7. This is a profound change especially in light of the real meaning of “what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.” In context what withholds is the fulfillment of apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin, that Jesus may be revealed in His time. The context of the passage is the 2nd coming and the fear of the people they missed it. Paul explains they did not miss this and relates what must occur first. Since apostasia and the revealing must happen before Jesus returns, WHAT withholds, not WHO, are the coming events of apostasia, and the revealing of the man of sin, and what they are withholding is the 2nd coming and the gathering of the elect.

“only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way”, is mistranslated as it takes no help from the context. 2 Thess 2:3-7 concerns the conditions that must occur before the 2nd coming and the gathering of the elect, allaying the fears of the church. The coming fulfillment of the apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin are in fact withholding the 2nd coming so then, "only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way", is an oddity jammed into this section of revealed truth. If we adhere to the Greek and continue in the same context as Paul, this fragment should read a bit differently, literally, "...alone now hold fast until come into being from out of the middle..." or more modern “Simply endure for now until he rises in the middle.” or, “Merely holdfast for now until he appears to the world from in the midst.” Maybe, “Wait until the coming into being in the middle,” is better.  Or perhaps even better might be the idea that the withholding will continue until apostasia is complete and the man of sin is revealed, becoming or coming into being; manifesting to the world from right in between, or the middle, or in the midst of.

Since this entire passage is about the delaying of the coming of Jesus, and the gathering of the elect, and why there is a delay, and what causes that delay, it makes sense there should be a mention of when that delay will end and what that will look like. Only after this ‘coming into being in the midst’ “shall that Wicked be revealed,” I see this as a reference to the prophecy of Daniel and the words of Jesus when speaking of the last week and the A of D. Paul is saying exactly what Jesus and Daniel combined are telling us; The beast is revealed in the middle of the week at the A of D and great tribulation begins;  after that Jesus will return and gather the elect.

Blessings.

 

 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

But this fragment deserves a fair amount of attention. The translation from the Greek to the Kings English has been shamelessly butchered. Ok, maybe God just hid this until we near the time of fulfillment and it wasn't really an evisceration of the original text, but I'm not sure why or if.  I have found other instances where it looks like the translation was a preference and had no bearing on the intent or concepts of the passage, but this is an outstanding example. In the original this fragment mirrors verses 1-6, to wit:

And for this reason it's important that we keep seeking truth and rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal truth as promised.  Translating from one language into another is never a 1:1 proposition, and definitions of words change over time.  Just by looking at the translations we have today, you can see how bias and interpretation are interjected.

Thanks for taking the time to spell it out.  Definitely keeping this view in the "possibility" column and fairly high up on the "probability" scale.  May we all keep our eyes and ears open, and our hearts teachable by the Holy Spirit.

[Diaste]

On 3/5/2018 at 7:31 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Daniel 11:36.

Don't call me "son"; you're not old enough. I have read the Bible, and what I find fascinating is how simple it is when you look at matters from the right perspective. Even with the "New Testament," the Bible is a HEBREW book! It's written by the children of Israel, for the children of Israel, and tells of a Messiah to be Israel's King named Yeshua` Natsratiy, the physical manifestation of God, called God's Son. He shall be God's representative in flesh and bones to reign over God's Kingdom, not just for a thousand years, but FOREVER.

There's no "mess" here; I'm just trying to straighten out the mess that "Christians" have made of things for the last 2,000 years! Mistakes have been made and over the years COMPOUNDED to create the goofy interpretations that I've been hearing here EVERY DAY!

You're right; the Bible is NOT hodge-podge; it's the goofy intepretations of the Scriptures that are built upon other goofy interpretations of the Scriptures until this ridiculous house of cards falls of its OWN weight! This concept of the "Antichrist" is one such house of cards. Get back to the Bible as it was written!

So you don't think the scripture is for everyone?

I agree with the 'antichrist' thing, it's a misnomer. The beast is coming. And the second beast...and the dragon.