Michael's relationship to the middle of the week

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

And for this reason it's important that we keep seeking truth and rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal truth as promised.  Translating from one language into another is never a 1:1 proposition, and definitions of words change over time.  Just by looking at the translations we have today, you can see how bias and interpretation are interjected.

Thanks for taking the time to spell it out.  Definitely keeping this view in the "possibility" column and fairly high up on the "probability" scale.  May we all keep our eyes and ears open, and our hearts teachable by the Holy Spirit.

I really appreciate your quiet and consistent message of staying ready, alert, prepared, all in the Spirit, to stand in that day. It's something we all need to hear. We all need to keep our eyes and hearts on the Lord Jesus in the Spirit of truth.

Blessings brother.

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

So you don't think the scripture is for everyone?

I agree with the 'antichrist' thing, it's a misnomer. The beast is coming. And the second beast...and the dragon.

Shalom, Diaste.

I believe that the Scriptures are APPLICABLE for everyone, but I also believe that the Scriptures have a very distinctly Israeliy flavor.

Right you are about the rest.

[Daniel 11:36]

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him"

 

Paul speaks of the rapture in the above passage of scripture .... they thought they had missed this and so Paul sets them straight

The rapture will come first .... then the antichrist will be revealed during the 70th week decreed for Israel 

[Steve Conley]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Hi Steve,

Good morning from a brother in the faith! I read a lot of your posts and I do appreciate the solid ground on which you stand. It's both refreshing and comforting to hear sincerity and truth concerning our Lord Jesus!

Even though your OP is the one to which I'm replying, I'm really addressing many people, should they choose to be in the audience. 

I don't know why this should be but it's ubiquitous that either Micheal or the Holy Spirit is the restrainer in 2 Thess 2. I have heard it myself a hundred times over the years. It's not the right interpretation but somehow people believe it all the same. So lets dig in. My comments will be in blue, scripture in black.

Conventional wisdom holds that Micheal is the with holder of the man of sin in 2 Thess 2. Some think it's the Holy Spirit. In truth a 'he' is being withheld by a 'what' and it's not the man of sin that's being withheld; it's the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the elect withheld by the events of the apostasy and the beast declaring himself god.

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

The context is set. The following verses are all about the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 

It's pretty clear the Thessalonians had been troubled about this and they were hearing some contradictory reports. Paul is assuring them the Day has not come no matter what they have heard from any source, even forged letters. Relax Thessalonian brethren, the day is not here, you did not miss the gathering.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

We are still in the context of the first verse, "...the coming of our Lord Jesus, and our gathering together to Him...". Two things have to occur before the coming of the Lord and the gathering: the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin. I'm sure we're in agreement to this point. Super simple and clear enough that even my head understands.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

So Paul is giving the details of what the man of sin will do. No doubt so the acts of this man are clear and won't be mistaken for something else. In our time of national identity and 'independence' these acts will be shocking to say the least. Maybe during the Daniel 2 empires this would have been the norm, but in the 3rd millennium? Not only do these acts from v 4 take a whole lot of arrogance but what power is wielded to support such claims and actions?   

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 

Calling to remembrance the Thessalonians memory of that which they should have already known. Now how is this, really? Paul is still alive, the Thessalonian congregation had just been established, and they forgot so quickly? Not only that, but there were false doctrines going about and even forged letters in the apostles name, which the people were believing, only barely removed from Paul's last visit. These people were very close in time to the source of truth and they were already falling away.  No wonder the church is in it's current state.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 

The disputed verse. Several problems with common interpretations of Micheal as the withholder. First the context. It has not changed. If we do away with the parentheticals, those things not directly mentioning the context of verse 1,  the first few verses of 2 Thess would read like this: 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him,That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  And now ye know what with holds that he might be revealed in his time. 

Reading thus we see the coming of the Lord Jesus is on hold for two events, the onset and continuing apostasy of the church and the rise of the man-god. A second point is the 'what withholds' in v 6. This is 'katecho', means to hold back. There is no personal pronoun here. This is simply an impediment to the 'he' in verse 6. If it was Micheal, or the Holy Spirit, then a name or a least a personal pronoun should appear as in, "...now you know WHO withholds that HE might be revealed...". Personal pronouns are in use several times in 2 Thess 2:1-7, and the name of the Holy Spirit and Micheal are well known to Paul. Paul, a scholar superior to all modern scholars, learned directly from the Lord Jesus  himself, probably did not make a mistake when not preceding  'katecho' with 'autos', as it's events that are waiting to occur before Jesus comes again, not a Holy personality leaving so the beast can rise. This verse, "And now ye know what with holds that he might be revealed in his time." is really just a concise iteration of verses 1-3.

A third point concerns antecedents. Working backwards from verse 6 the only possible antecedent to 'katecho' (of some troublesome condition or circumstance by which one is held as it were bound) are the events of v. 3, as verses 4 and 5 are parenthetical, and the direct antecedent to v. 3 is the day of Christ; all falling under the umbrella of the only context of verses 1-7, the coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering together to Him. This shows the correct understanding of the text; The day of Christ and the gathering is being with held by the events of the apostasy and the rebellion of the man-god.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: 

No explanation needed.

only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

But this fragment deserves a fair amount of attention. The translation from the Greek to the Kings English has been shamelessly butchered. Ok, maybe God just hid this until we near the time of fulfillment and it wasn't really an evisceration of the original text, but I'm not sure why or if.  I have found other instances where it looks like the translation was a preference and had no bearing on the intent or concepts of the passage, but this is an outstanding example. In the original this fragment mirrors verses 1-6, to wit:

This verse looks like it has not only been misunderstood (by me) but mistranslated as well. Behold a new reality:

KJV:                       only         he who now       letteth        [will let],

Koine Greek:        monon           arti               katecho       heos

Literal English:      Merely      just now        hold fast        until 

 

KJV:                         until               he be taken             out of               the way. 

Koine Greek:          heos                 ginomai                    ek                     mesos

Literal English:       until               to emerge           from out of            middle.

 

‘Ginomai’ (he be taken)

Definition

to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being, to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen, of events, to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage, of men appearing in public, to be made, finished, of miracles, to be performed, wrought, to become, be made.

‘Mesos’ (the way)

Definition

middle, the midst, in the midst of, amongst.

These are the two most important points from the verse in question and they completely change the understanding of 2 Thess 2:7. This is a profound change especially in light of the real meaning of “what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.” In context what withholds is the fulfillment of apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin, that Jesus may be revealed in His time. The context of the passage is the 2nd coming and the fear of the people they missed it. Paul explains they did not miss this and relates what must occur first. Since apostasia and the revealing must happen before Jesus returns, WHAT withholds, not WHO, are the coming events of apostasia, and the revealing of the man of sin, and what they are withholding is the 2nd coming and the gathering of the elect.

“only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way”, is mistranslated as it takes no help from the context. 2 Thess 2:3-7 concerns the conditions that must occur before the 2nd coming and the gathering of the elect, allaying the fears of the church. The coming fulfillment of the apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin are in fact withholding the 2nd coming so then, "only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way", is an oddity jammed into this section of revealed truth. If we adhere to the Greek and continue in the same context as Paul, this fragment should read a bit differently, literally, "...alone now hold fast until come into being from out of the middle..." or more modern “Simply endure for now until he rises in the middle.” or, “Merely holdfast for now until he appears to the world from in the midst.” Maybe, “Wait until the coming into being in the middle,” is better.  Or perhaps even better might be the idea that the withholding will continue until apostasia is complete and the man of sin is revealed, becoming or coming into being; manifesting to the world from right in between, or the middle, or in the midst of.

Since this entire passage is about the delaying of the coming of Jesus, and the gathering of the elect, and why there is a delay, and what causes that delay, it makes sense there should be a mention of when that delay will end and what that will look like. Only after this ‘coming into being in the midst’ “shall that Wicked be revealed,” I see this as a reference to the prophecy of Daniel and the words of Jesus when speaking of the last week and the A of D. Paul is saying exactly what Jesus and Daniel combined are telling us; The beast is revealed in the middle of the week at the A of D and great tribulation begins;  after that Jesus will return and gather the elect.

Blessings.

 

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Diaste, thank you brother for your kind words. However, concerning the "he" in verse six, the nearest antecedent is the man of sin and the revelation (apokalupto) in context is not that of Jesus at His coming, but that of the man of sin. Nothing is said specifically about Christ's" revelation" in the text.

I don't think an improper understanding of verses 6 and 7 will have an appreciable affect upon one's eschatological model, unless it is used in an attempt to lend support to the false pre-trib system by claiming the restrainer is the church or Holy Spirit. Although we are not explicitly told that it is Michael who is the restrainer, Michael's relationship to the middle of the week is unquestionable.

I also recognize that the hindering activities spoken of in verses 6 and 7 are not well defined. So, how the revelation of the man of sin is being hindered is not known with any certainty. Yet, from the other texts I provided, we have seen that Michael is perfectly suited for such activity.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

The rapture will come first .... then the antichrist will be revealed during the 70th week decreed for Israel 

Not true. First the falling away and the revealing of the beast at the midpoint. Then some time after Christ returns and gathers the elect.

The gathering is at least 3.5 years from today.

Matt 24 is for everyone.

You'll see the deadly head wound healed and the Temple rise.

You'll see the two witnesses.

You'll see the dragon.

That is if you don't pass before. I don't know when this all begins, but it does begin we will all see it, and see it all. Honestly it will be a time of great joy for all believers to witness the power of God in the natural realm, something we have not seen for thousands of years.

Greater is He that is with us than those who are against us. 

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Diaste, thank you brother for your kind words. However, concerning the "he" in verse six, the nearest antecedent is the man of sin and the revelation (apokalupto) in context is not that of Jesus at His coming, but that of the man of sin. Nothing is said specifically about Christ's" revelation" in the text.

I don't think an improper understanding of verses 6 and 7 will have an appreciable affect upon one's eschatological model, unless it is used in an attempt to lend support to the false pre-trib system by claiming the restrainer is the church or Holy Spirit. Although we are not explicitly told that it is Michael who is the restrainer, Michael's relationship to the middle of the week is unquestionable.

I also recognize that the hindering activities spoken of in verses 6 and 7 are not well defined. So, how the revelation of the man of sin is being hindered is not known with any certainty. Yet, from the other texts I provided, we have seen that Michael is perfectly suited for such activity.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Context dictates interpretation. This passage is concerning the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the elect. The direct antecedent to v 6 is v 3, 4 and 5 are parenthetical. The thesis is the same throughout 1-7 and v 6 is a concise iteration of v 1-3. It's interesting Paul asks why they don't remember in v 5 right after establishing the order, Apostasy, A of D, Christ's return and the gathering. Paul makes the point the former two events must occur before the latter two events, and so the statement, "now you know WHAT withholds that he might be revealed in his time.." fits perfectly with the order from v 3, establishes a timeline, assures the people the day had not yet come, and gives the signs to look for. So indeed the day comes after the beast rises, and the A of D and the rebellion are the factors delaying the return of Jesus. Not because of inherent power in the events themselves, nor the power of the beast, but to fit in with prophecy and the plan of our Father.

Micheal has a connection to the mid point of the week. I have not investigated this fully but that connection might be strictly Israeli-centric. Though I hate myself for saying that as I don't buy any separation between Jew and Gentile! 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

I believe that the Scriptures are APPLICABLE for everyone, but I also believe that the Scriptures have a very distinctly Israeliy flavor.

 

Agreed. Love the posts. Thanks for all the effort and keep up the good work.