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Michael's relationship to the middle of the week


Steve Conley

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 ["God is perfectly capable of protecting His chosen, in the midst of problems"

 

He is, but He will not [Revelation 14:12-13]

The pre-tribulation changing will take place first .... then those who become believers during the tribulation will be killed and raised to immortality at the end .of it [Revelation 20:4] .... and some will remain alive and enter the Lord's millennial kingdom as mortals [Matthew 24:31, Matthew 25:31-32]

 

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Great post omega, 

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Good post just above

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Omegaman 3.0

 

These are the scriptures that taken together prove the pre tribulation removal of all believers, both dead and alive, just before the Lord brings His wrath and judgment upon a totally unbelieving world:

[1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-3; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 6:12-17; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9: 19:14; 20:1-4 .... those already on thrones]

This theme is the proving of pre-tribulation believers from the beginning the human race

You study the scriptures that I have given you and you may be able to see this narrative

There are other scriptures, but start with the ones above and you might be able to get the picture

 

 

Edited by Daniel 11:36
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7 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

These are the scriptures that taken together prove the pre tribulation removal of all believers, both dead and alive, just before the Lord brings His wrath and judgment upon a totally unbelieving world:

[1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-3; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 6:12-17; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9: 19:14; 20:1-4 .... those already on thrones]

This theme is the proving of pre-tribulation believers from the beginning the human race

You study the scriptures that I have given you and you may be able to see this narrative

There are other scriptures, but start with the ones above and you might be able to get the picture

 

 

 

Greetings in the name of the lord Jesus Christ,

 

 

 

Daniel 11:36, like you, many fail to see that there are two distinct periods of tribulation in the second half of the seventieth week. The first is great tribulation upon the elect and Israel by the Beast and his followers. The second is tribulation from God upon the unbelieving Beast worshipers. Get this figured out will go a long ways to leading you to a Biblical understanding of the end time order of events. The passages below emphasize the fact that there are two different unparalleled periods of tribulation. The first, the great tribulation (Daniel's time of trouble, Jacob's troubles) is the persecution of the elect and Israel by the Beast and his followers; the second, the beginning of the day of the Lord, is God's wrath upon the those who had persecuted the elect and Israel.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When Jesus returns, the great tribulation, that time of trouble that Daniel spoke of (Dan 12:1) will be cut short (Matt 24:22). It is at that time that He will resurrect the dead in Christ (Dan 12:1-2, Rev 20:4-6, 1Cor 15:23, 51-52) and send the angels to catch up those who are alive and remain together with them, into the clouds (Rev 1:7), to be with Him (1Thes 4:15-17; Matt 24:31). It is after we are safely at the Father's house (John 14:3), before the throne of God (Rev 7:9-17) that His wrath begins to be poured out (Rev 8, 9, 16-19) suddenly (1Thes 5:2-3) on the very same day (Luke 17:26-30).

It can be shown that there are two periods of tribulation which make up the second half of the week, the last 3½ years prior to Christ's literal, physical, millennial reign, upon the throne of David in Jerusalem.

The explicit statements of the Scriptures below make it clear that there are two distinct unparalleled periods of tribulation in the second half of the week.

When does the great tribulation begin? In the middle of the week

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

What comes after the great tribulation? The cosmic sign spoken of by Joel which is the precursor to Christ's return.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

----

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

----

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

----

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

----

Isa 2:12  For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

----

Isa 2:17  And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

---

Isa 2:19  And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Isa 2:20  In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;

Isa 2:21  To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

“If these passages describe the cosmic sign of Joel 2:31, and they do, then it is an indisputable

fact that the day of the Lord cannot begin until the great tribulation is over.”

 

God's wrath, at the beginning of the day of the Lord, doesn't begin until the elect (all believers in Jesus Christ) are removed from the earth, after the great tribulation.

God’s tribulation upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipers, who will persecute the church and Israel in the great tribulation, is referenced in Rev 3:10. The persecuted saints are said to be kept from the hour of temptation, that is, removed from the sphere of God’s, day of the Lord, wrath.

Rev 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

When considering this verse, it is very important to understand the focus of the trial in context. It is that which will allow you to rightly understand what the notable hour of temptation is. Here, the focus is said to be upon the earth dwellers, “them that dwell upon the earth.” “The earth dwellers” is a technical term throughout the eschatological portions of the New Testament. The term is the combination of two Greek words (ghay and katoikeo). It always refers to those dwelling on the earth that worship the Beast and receive his mark (even in Rev 12:12).

Jesus says concerning the Day of the LORD:

Luk 21:35  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Note: Paul clearly teaches that the Day of the LORD will not overtake the watching believer as a thief. 

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

So “them that dwell on the face of the whole earth” excludes the watching saints.

John records concerning the two witnesses:

Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. ...

Rev 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Note: The earth-dwellers here rejoice at the death of God’s two witnesses, which no believer would do. 

Again, John uses this technical term concerning those who are deceived by the false prophet:

Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Note: The earth-dwellers here are deceived by the False Prophet into worshiping the Beast and receiving his mark, but Jesus said that it was not possible for the “very elect” to be deceived (Matt. 24:24).

Eleven verses in the book of Revelation contain this technical term for those who worship the beast and receive his mark.

Recognizing that the focus of the temptation is upon the earth dwellers, we know that it refers to God's fierce wrath at the beginning of the day of the Lord and not Satan's wrath (Rev 12:12) upon the elect and Israel in the great tribulation.

What verses show that the great tribulation is the persecution of the elect and Israel?

The persecution of Israel can readily be seen in many passages. The most spoken of today is likely Jer. 30:7 where the term “Jacob’s troubles” appears. Dan 12:1 can also rightly be speaking of the believing remnant of Israel. Jesus’ instruction in the Olivet Discourse (Matt 24, 25) has a decidedly Jewish flavor which must include the Jews. However, we must remember it is only believers who listen to the Master’s voice. Rev 12, decidedly shows us that Satan persecutes both the Israelites and believers in Jesus Christ when he is cast from Heaven to the earth in the middle of the week.

There are many references to Christians being persecuted in the great tribulation. Rev 6:9-11 describes those martyred souls under the alter in Heaven crying out for vengeance, that would have to wait, until the rest of their brethren and fellowservants should be killed as they were. The innumerable multitude in Rev 7:9-17 are said to have come out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. They are saved by the blood of the Lamb just like we are. The saints are said to overcome the wrath of Satan “by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony and loved not their lives unto death” (Rev 12:11). The deliverance is to be for those whose names are in the book (Dan 12:1). He will come the second time without sin unto salvation (Heb 9:28). Jesus said that those that endured to the end shall be saved, and the context was the great tribulation. Again and again, we see deliverance or salvation in a physical sense for those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (1Th 4:16-).

One of the best ways to know that the church is here during the great tribulation, is that the first resurrection involves the tribulation saints (Rev 20:4-6). Paul makes it very clear that there are only two resurrections to come (1Cor 15:23-24). “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power…”

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

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"like you, many fail to see that there are two distinct periods of tribulation in the second half of the seventieth week. The first is great tribulation upon the elect and Israel by the Beast and his followers. The second is tribulation from God upon the unbelieving Beast worshipers. Get this figured out will go a long ways to leading you to a Biblical understanding of the end time order of events. The passages below emphasize the fact that there are two different unparalleled periods of tribulation. The first, the great tribulation (Daniel's time of trouble, Jacob's troubles) is the persecution of the elect and Israel by the Beast and his followers; the second, the beginning of the day of the Lord, is God's wrath upon the those who had persecuted the elect and Israel."

 

The day of the Lord will begin here: Revelation 6:12-17

All of the 70th week and beyond will be the Lord's day  

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On 2/23/2018 at 11:44 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Omegaman 3.0

 

These are the scriptures that taken together prove the pre tribulation removal of all believers, both dead and alive, just before the Lord brings His wrath and judgment upon a totally unbelieving world:

[1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-3; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 6:12-17; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9: 19:14; 20:1-4 .... those already on thrones]

This theme is the proving of pre-tribulation believers from the beginning the human race

You study the scriptures that I have given you and you may be able to see this narrative

There are other scriptures, but start with the ones above and you might be able to get the picture

Thanks Daniel, for that list of verses.

I am going to have to apologize ahead of time for how long this post will have to be. You presented quite a list there, which you say prove a pre-trib rapture. It will take considerable commentary to demonstrate that these verses do not prove what they are alleged to do. That is an annoying thing with many pre-trib comments on these forums. They keep saying they have proof, they have verses, then don’t provide any. Here yes, you gave verses, relevant ones at that, but they do not remotely make your case.

It is easy to say verse X and verse Y prove something, but then instead of explaining how they do is not so easy, so it is often ignored.

Many will not take the time to read all of what I have to say, but some may be interested enough to endure the work. Those people, are more noble than the believers in Thessalonica  (Acts 17:11).

1 Cor 15

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

So far, so good, at his coming, his parousia:

3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present or to arrive to enter into a situation

 

1. In the NT nearly always refers to the return of Christ.  Moreover, 3952 (parousía) refers to both phases of Christ's arrival (return):

 

• His coming for His saints at the resurrection/rapture, to reward them in glorification (with the investiture of immortality); and

 

• His Advent to the earth with His saints to judge the unrepentant nations at Armageddon.

 

2. Christ's return (parousia) is a single (indivisible) event, both phases of which "apparently happen on the final day of the Great Tribulation (= the Day of the Lord)" (G. Archer).

 

Note by Omegaman 3.0: Same word used by the diciples in Matt 24 when they asked,

"Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matt 24:3 The which He told them, "immediately after the tribulation of those days",

! Cir 15

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved  brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

Still compatible with, and indicative of the historic view of the church, that Jesus will return after the tribulation and catch up believers to be with Him.

Here, Paul reveals a mystery, that Jesus had not specified in Matt 24 in related passages, that when the living are caught up to be with Him and the resurrected saints after the tribulation, that the living will be transformed and receive imperishable bodies.

 

Still no pre-trib rapture mentioned.

1 Thess 4

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed,  brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve  as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

Yeah, another great passage. This one states specifically the those Christians who will be alive at the parousia (the Lords coming that He spoke of in Matt 24) well not be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, until the dead in Christ, go up first. As we already saw earlier in the thread from Rev 20, the resurrection occurs after the tribulation, with the beast having made martyrs of Christians.

This must have been a great comfort to those Thessalonians, who were worried that their dead loved ones, had missed resurrection at the day of the Lord.

 

It is a comfort indeed to know, that believers will be with the Lord forever, wherever He is.

 

Still in harmony with a post-tribulation rapture, and no indication of a  pre-tribulation rapture.

1 Thess 5

1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written  to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenlyI like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not  escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert  and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 

Another great passage good job!

Here we can see what will happen at the day of the Lord.

It will come like a thief, catching people off guard, who are not expecting it.

Of course we see also in this passage, that not everyone is not expecting it.

There are two groups here, those who are saying peace and safety (much like in the days of Noah, when people were surprised at the flood, and living life as usual).  These people will have destruction come upon them suddenly, and they will not escape.

At verse 4 however, we see the other group, the believers. Of them it is said, that they are not in darkness, and that day will not overtake them as a thief.

We see what is in store for them in verse 9, that is salvation, instead of the wrath that is destined for those of darkness.

Once again, full harmony with a post-tribulation rapture, and nothing that necessitates a pre-trib rapture.

2nd Thess 2

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, 3 and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Okay, seems like the coming of the Lord (the parousia yet again) and our gathering, would seem to indicate the rapture we have already looked at, so no problems.

Again, Paul is reassuring the Thessalonians. The seem to worry that the day of the Lord, might have already come.

He tells them not to be deceived by other teaching and assures them that there is a way that they can know that the day of the Lord has not yet come.

What does he tell them? That that day cannot come unless the apostasy comes first.

 

646/apostasia ("a standing-away") expresses departure (rejection) and implied rebellion (as also in the LXX).  It means "to withdraw in revolt; departing from a former loyalty or commitment; a denying to gain something new; a defection, apostasy, revolt" (Abbott-Smith).

G. Archer, "646/apostasía ("departure") is a broad term that can refer to: final apostasy, i.e. a Christian losing their salvation by vacating their relationship with the Lord; or the temporary backsliding of a Christian (who remains a true Christian)."

 

646 (apostasia) "properly signifies 'rebellion.'  It is used, for example, of political rebellions and military rebellions.  The characteristic thought of the Bible is that God rules.  Thus the word is appropriate for a rebellion against His rule. . . . It includes the idea of forsaking one's former allegiance" (Leon Morris, The Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, 218).

 

Apparenty, there will b some major departure from  the faith or something.

 

Paul also said that a person person comes, and takes his seat in the temple, demanding worship, and pretending to be God. I have little doubt that this is anyone other than the abominations of desolation, that Jesus and Daniel spoke of, which happens in the middle of the 70th week, the person we call THE antichrist.

 

So far then, we have another indication, that Jesus return, is not at any moment, other things are yet to happen. Such as Daniel’s 70th week here.

Rev 3

10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

There are only a few things here, that prevent this from being a proof text for a pre-tribulation rapture.

1. First, it is a conditional promise. At best, it would only apply to believers who have kept the word of His perseverance, I am not sure I even know what that means.

2. This promise is only made to one of the seven churches that these letters are sent to.

3. I am of course, aware that some believe that these seven chuches represent 7 dispensations of the “church age”.

These dispensations are the invention of John N. Darby, in the early 1800s, and are not spoken of in the earlier history of the church, not are they to be found in the Bible. Dispensationalism, is a doctrine of men.

Of course, it is tempting to believe that if that were true, symbolic, and not literal churches, we would want to believe the the church Jesus wants to protect, is the one that symbolizes us!

For grins, let’s look at what He says to a few other churches:

To the church at Ephesus He writes:

 

and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary. 4 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place —unless you repent.

 

Now, that make me want to ask:

“When will Jesus be coming to them . . . is  that some other coming before the  tribulation, different from the supposed one that pre-tribbers expect? Or is  the church, going to be left behind?

 

Moving on to another church, let’s look at the church at Smyrna, to whom He writes:

 

9 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

 

Wow! That church is in tribulation, and are told not to fear what they are about to suffer. They are going to be in tribulation, but . . . .if the persevere unto death, then they will inherit eternal life.

 

Let’s look at yet another church, the church at Pergamum. You know how pre=tribbers often look to verses that say “behold, I come quickly” as evidence that the rapture can be at any moment? Perhaps you do not, but many do. Not only is His imminent return not taught in scripture, but coming quickly (or as the Greek often puts it, with suddenness, not soon) is not necessarily good news, it can be a threat, a warning. To Pergamum, He writes: “'Therefore repent  or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.”

 

Then there is Thyatira, to whom He says:

'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 

 

4. Point here is that there is no apparent reason is scripture, to think that Rev 3:10 should be applied to the church which is alive just before the tribulation, and not applying the warnings to these other churches. Is not the whole church the bride of Christ?

 

What gives us the gall to think that we are supposed to skip the trials and tribulations, persecutions and sufferings that are the general promise to the church? Why should we be spared the martyrdom that has been the case for thousands Christians for thousands of years? The very word martyr, is the Greek word μαρτυρ, one who testifies, a witness.

 

So apart from the fact that there is no scriptural basis for thinking that Rev 3:10 should be appied to the end times church uniquely, there is another issue. Even the late pastor Chuck Smith, an avid proponent of the pre-trib rapture, says in chapter four of his book “The Tribulation and the Church”:

 

“I must concur that at least part of the Church will face the Great Tribulation.”

 

5. Then there is the problem of what the Greek actually says in Rev 3:10, if you do not import your wishful thinking into the text.

 

“I also will keep you from the hour of testing”

Keep you from, or keep you out of. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words makes no comment on this specific verse, but it does address the same phrase in the context of 1 Thess 1:10:

In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 , "even Jesus, which delivereth us from the wrath to come,"  the question whether ek here means "out of the midst of" or "away from," is to be determined by some statement of Scripture where the subject is specifically mentioned; this is provided, e.g., in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 , the context of which makes clear that believers are to be delivered from (not "out of") the Divine wrath to be executed on the nations at the end of the present age

So, if ek means out of the midst of, or merely delivered from is determined by the specifics of the context . . . what in the context of Rev 3:10 requires a removal from out of midst? Nothing!

Not only that, but the same phrase is used in John 17:15, where Jesus says:

"I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.”

Interesting that there He asks God not for removal out of the world, but for protection.

So, it is quite a stretch to read into Rev 3:10. Read into it if you need to, but it is based in optimistic, though understandable, wishful thinking!

 

 

 

Rev 4:4

Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty - four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

 

Uh . . . How on earth does that prove a pre-trib rapture?

Rev 5:1-10

1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals." 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

Uh . . . How on earth does that prove a pre-trib rapture?

Rev 6:12-17

12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Uh . . . How on earth does that prove a pre-trib rapture?

 

If anything, you have the sun, moon, and stars thing, that Jesus said was after the great tribulation in Matt 24:

 

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

Seems like what you have accomplished here, is to tie the wrath of God in Rev 6:17, to the coming of Christ after the tribulation, exactly what post-tribulation believers maintain.

 

Rev 7:9-17

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen." 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

 

O.K. This is getting weird, but I have to say again:

 

Uh . . . How on earth does that prove a pre-trib rapture?

 

It is a marvelous passage, one of great hope and joy. Multitudes of people from all nations, tribes, peoples and languages, standing before the throne.

 

Thanks for reminding  us, that the great tribulation is not some local event, but world wide.

 

“and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation”

 

You cannot come out of something you were never in. Looks like a parallel description of the Christians martyred in the tribulation, as described in Rev 20:4.

 

 

 

Rev 11:1

1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.

Uh . . . How on earth does that prove a pre-trib rapture?

 

Rev 13:6

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

Uh . . . How on earth does that prove a pre-trib rapture?

Of course, it doesn’t. However, let’s look at the very next verse, 13:7:

 

7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

 

That goes very well with your other verse, Rev 7:14 which we just looked at, where we saw those who came out of the great tribulation. Most likely, this how they came out of the tribulation, they were killed when in Rev 13:4 we read of the dragon and the beast:

 

4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?" 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

 

It is great how the Bible so perfectly harmonizes with itself, 42 months, the length of the great tribulation.

 

Rev 17:14

14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

Again, how on earth does that prove a pre-trib rapture?

As the Jamieson-Faussett-Brown commentary notes:

 

“"And they that are with Him, called chosen, and faithful (shall overcome them, namely, the beast and his allied kings)." These have been with Christ in heaven unseen, but now appear with Him.”

 

Is this not in harmony with Rev 19, where Jesus returns from heaven to earth, with the great armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, following Him on white horses?

 

Rev 18:4

 4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

Seriously? Ever hear of a thing called context?

The context of Rev 18, is the fall of Babylon, again, after the tribulation.

Rev 19:1-9

1 After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2 BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUSI; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER." 3 And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER." 4 And the twenty-fourI elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne saying, "Amen. Hallelujah!"] 5 And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great." 6 Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. 7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.9 Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb. '" And he said to me, "These are true words of God."

Oh great, I learned something, thanks. I already knew of course, that the wedding feast was after the great tribulation, from Matt 25, and to be truthful, I do not know is this marriage of the Lamb, is the same thing.

 

The wedding feast, does appear to be a parable, an illustration, even though it is given a chronology of being after the tribulation.

 

Here though in Rev 19, again, there is a context, and that is the fall of the Harlot of Babylon, so again, after the tribulation. Thanks for having me look at that.

 

One can really learn a lot, reading the ideas of pre-tribbers!

Rev 19:14

14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

Yeah, already noted that verse in a previous remark, and we saw that it has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture, since the context is of a pot-trib event.

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. 3 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand;and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Why would it even occur to someone, to use a passage describing Christians who were beheaded in the great tribulation in an attempt to prove that Christians are raptured before the tribulation that Christians are killed in?  That is quite perplexing!

I was fairly thorough, I think, in showing than the not only do not prove a pre-trib rapture, I think they make a decent case for a post-trib rapture. Of course, many will disagree and they are free to do so. Those interested, can look over this stuff, and decide what it is, that scripture says. While it was a somewhat involved examination of the texts, I need to apologize to Steve Conley for going off topic of Michael's relationship to the middle of the week.

Steve, if you want, I will delete this post!

Thanks Daniel 11:36, for the stimulating discussion.

Not sure if I can attach it or not but going to attempt to put a more readable, and printable, PDF file of the same information.:

Sorry, 5,161 words, 10 pages, 5 sheets of paper if printed double sided.

pretribproofs.pdf

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On 2/23/2018 at 9:06 AM, ENOCH2010 said:

Great post omega, 

 

On 2/23/2018 at 11:18 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Good post just above

Thank you gentlemen, you are quite kind!

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On 2/18/2018 at 8:15 PM, Steve Conley said:

Understanding the Activity of Michael the Archangel in the Middle of the Seventieth Week


In this brief post, I would like to make a strong case for Michael the archangel being the restrainer that Paul says is withholding the revelation of the man of sin until it is God's determined time.

Michael's suitability to be the restrainer

The Holy Scriptures present Michael as the mightiest of the Heavenly Host. He is seen opposing Satan on a handful of occasions in the Scriptures. Jude tells us that Michael contended with the Devil over the body of Moses, whom he rebuked in the name of the Lord. As recorded in Daniel 10, it is Michael that dealt with the prince of Persia when he had detained Gabriel on his way with a message for Daniel. In the future Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with Satan and his angels, after which he will cast Satan to the earth. It is he who appears to have been tasked with the responsibility to hold back the revelation of the man of sin until it is the right time.

Michael's unique relationship to the middle of the seventieth week

In the future eschatological period known as Daniel's seventieth week, the archangel Michael will play a significant role. We find him in three passages that present events that take place in the middle of the week.

1) Michael stands up and an unparalleled time of trouble begins (Dan 12:1)

Dan 11:45  And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:7  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The context of the end of Daniel chapter 11 is the activities of the Beast in the end of the age. In chapter 11 we learn characteristics about him and see some of his military activities. The chapter ends with him placing the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain. This location appears to be Mt Zion in Jerusalem. The significance of this is that it is at that time (Dan 12:1) that Michael makes a change in his activity which results in an unparalleled time of trouble (Dan 12:1). This time of trouble is consistent with the great tribulation Jesus spoke of. We also see that there is a unique period length that is mentioned in relation to what is taking place in the beginning of chapter 12. The length that is given is "a time, times, and an half" or 3 1/2 years. Seven times in the Scriptures we find this same length spoken of in various forms: 1260 days, 42 months, and 3 1/2 years. It appears each time that they are associated with the second half of the seventieth week. The obvious conclusion is that the change in activity by Michael takes place in the middle of the week.

2) War in heaven, Satan cast to the earth (Rev 12:7-14)

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with the dragon (Satan) and his angels, after which Satan is cast to the earth having great wrath. Once upon the earth Satan goes after a remnant of Israel (represented by the woman) but she is hid and fed by God in the wilderness for 1260 days (Rev 12:6). The 1260 days indicate that the war in heaven took place in the middle of the week. Again, we see that Michael is very prominent in the middle of the week.

3) The abomination of desolation starts the great tribulation (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27)

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The temple is defiled in the middle of the week which initiates the great tribulation. This is consistent with the Dan 12 passage but Michael is not mentioned by name or referred to.

4) The revelation of the man of sin (2Thess 2:3-10)

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

In Paul's instruction to the Thessalonians, he tells them that before the day of Christ can come there must be a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed. He also mentions that there is one who is withholding the revelation of the man of sin and that they, the Thessalonians,  knew who it was. This revelation would involve the man of sin sitting in the temple and shewing himself to be God. Paul also says that this Antichrist shall receive power from Satan. 

We already know from the previous passages we looked at that the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of the week and it begins the great tribulation. Here we see further details concerning the defiling of the temple and learn of one hindering the work of the mystery of iniquity. It is said that this hindering will continue "until he be taken out of the way." It is interesting to note that the last Greek word in verse seven is "mesos" which means middle even though it is translated "the way". It is as if Paul is saying that the restrainer will continue to hinder until the middle. I wonder what middle he was referring to. Could it be the middle of the week? Could this restrainer be Michael who is associated with the middle of the week?

I believe Michael is the restrainer of 2Thes 2.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

The End of the Age Diagram January 2018 jpeg.jpg

Forget all the commentary. Superimpose this over the center of your chart, and you will have it:

3crosses.jpg

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