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What is the "Secret Rapture"

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8 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

1) Who are these we read of in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6?

2) Will John be shown other saints to come which will be caught up out of great tribulation in Rev 7:13-15?

3) What of the 144,000 of Rev 14:1?

1) These are leading elders among the Old Testament saints, perhaps including Elijah, Moses, and Enoch, as well as some of those resurrected soon after Jesus rose from the dead:

Matt. 27:52 the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

King David had earlier chosen 24 elders of Levi to head the courses of Temple service in Jerusalem. See 1 Chr. 25. The 24 elders of Rev. 4 seems to mimic that practice, which David had been shown by God.

2) That great multitude which no man is able to number are the raptured End Time saints.

3) The 144,000 saints are the earthly saints of the tribes of Israel, who lead their people in the wilderness trials during the 3-1/2 times of the Little Horn of Dan. 7 = the Mouth of the Beast in Rev. 13, AFTER the Church has been raptured.

 

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On 2/20/2018 at 10:09 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

"I think those that call it a "secret" rapture are those who don't believe in a rapture. God certainly did not call it a secret. There will be a shout and a loud trumpet sound. How could that be a secret?"

When the Apostle John was on Patmos, and described it as being in spirit on the Lord’s Day we read of in Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (Do you think others heard that great voice? John had to write the churches for them to hear.)

When John was caught up to heaven in Rev 4:1 we read: Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

I personally believe those called will hear.

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On 3/4/2018 at 2:10 PM, WilliamL said:

1) These are leading elders among the Old Testament saints, perhaps including Elijah, Moses, and Enoch, as well as some of those resurrected soon after Jesus rose from the dead:

Matt. 27:52 the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

King David had earlier chosen 24 elders of Levi to head the courses of Temple service in Jerusalem. See 1 Chr. 25. The 24 elders of Rev. 4 seems to mimic that practice, which David had been shown by God.

2) That great multitude which no man is able to number are the raptured End Time saints.

3) The 144,000 saints are the earthly saints of the tribes of Israel, who lead their people in the wilderness trials during the 3-1/2 times of the Little Horn of Dan. 7 = the Mouth of the Beast in Rev. 13, AFTER the Church has been raptured.

Good morning WilliamL, I just posted a reply concerning the 24 elders & 4 living ones at the following URL I’d like you to also consider. Thanks. Well, that didn't work and wanted to post the entire reply here when I posted the URL, so I'll just repeat it here.

 

The reason I posted this is to bring attention to Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6. the 24 elders and the four beasts or living ones.

This is not original with me,  but I also believe the 24 elders to be those of the church of Smyrna we read of in Rev 2:10. . . . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. These would be those dead of 1 Thes 4:16 that rise first, and in Rev 4:4 they are said to have on their heads crowns of gold.

Next I bring forth the 4 beasts, or what are also called the 4 living ones in some bibles we read of in Rev 4:6. They are told that they will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world if they faitfully keep the word of God in Rev 3:10, to try them that dwell upon the earth. These are those alive when Jesus comes in the air for them according to 1 Thes 4:17, and notice in Rev 3:11 that they are also said to have a crown.

Of seven portions of the churches in different locations which make up the one body of Christ, there are only two commended,  and said to have crowns. The remaining five locations of the one body of Christ are told to repent such as we read of concerning the church in Ephesus in Rev 2:5.  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick (church)out of his place (you started off first, and now may be third or whatever?), except thou repent. In other words you started off good, but in Rev 2:4 we see they had left thy first love in Rev 2:4. (They were no longer putting Jesus first?)

Important? In Rev 6:1 with the first of the seals opened, we see one of the living ones even working in conjunction with Jesus. Were they glorified? Eze 1:5  Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man, and in Eze 1:14  And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning. 

There's more but I hate to get too lenghty in one post. Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

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On 2/21/2018 at 12:09 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

"I think those that call it a "secret" rapture are those who don't believe in a rapture. God certainly did not call it a secret. There will be a shout and a loud trumpet sound. How could that be a secret?"

 

The Lord will raise the dead Christians and those who are living at the same time just before He brings His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world is not a secret, it is a Biblical fact 

The idea that this is a "secret" is false teaching

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

It is interesting that "the secret rapture" was the name originally given to what has come to be known as pretribulationism. The idea of the rapture being secret, has to do with the teaching that it will be imperceptible to the world, that only the believer would see Jesus or hear the trump. That is what Darby and those that adopted his teaching originally called it. They believed the revelation of Christ would take place at the end of the week instead of at His arrival to gather His own unto Himself.

Samuel P. Tregelles, Charles Spurgeon and others in that day vigorously opposed the new teaching (secret rapture/pretribulationism). But thanks to men like Arno C. Gaebelein and especially C. I. Scofield with his reference Bible, the fallacious teaching was spread throughout British and American evangelical churches and schools. Following them were the teachings of John Walvoord, Dwight Pentecost, Charles Ryrie and others whose major impact was upon those being trained in evangelical schools. Today pretribulationism has become so entrenched that many have become blind to the clear simple statements of Scripture. 

So, Daniel 11:36, I take it that as a pre-triber you didn't realize that "the secret rapture" was your heritage. 

However, you are absolutely right that there will be nothing secret about His arrival to receive us unto Himself. Jesus said that His coming would be unmistakable (Matt 24:27). He said that every eye would see Him (Rev 1:7). He said that it would be preceded by the sun, moon, and stars going dark (Matt 24:29-30). Those of us who will have survived the unprecedented persecution will have our heads up, and be looking to the sky for Him when the great earthquake and cosmic sign takes place (Luke 21:28). The earth dwellers who will have been persecuting us shall begin hiding at that point from the wrath of God which will fall upon them later the same day (Rev 6:12-17; Luke 17:26-30). When He arrives in the clouds the host of holy angels will be with Him (2Thes 1:7). He will raise the dead and change the living believer (Dan 12:1-2; 1Cor 15:51-53). He will gather both the resurrected and those who are alive and remain to Him in the clouds (1Thes 4:15-17). The angels are the agents of our rapture (Matt 24:31). He then will escort us to the Father's house to stand before the throne (John 14:3; Rev 7:9-17).

All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

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On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 10:30 AM, OneLight said:

I stay away from trying to figure out the timing of when this will happen.  I stick only to what scripture says, which is "at the last trumpet" as you cross reference it with 1 Corinthians 15:52.

This is surely a difficult topic.  Reading the opposing views is like trying to get a drink of water from a wide open fire hydrant. I have been told by both pre-tribulation and pre wrath folks why the last trump cannot be the seventh trumpet. I simply cannot see why not, but I am trying.

I like to compare 1Corinthians 15:51&52  "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" to Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."  Notice how well these two verses compliment each other.  Paul shows us a mystery, which is to occur at the last trump and John finishes the mystery at the last trump.   

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8 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:
On 2/23/2018 at 10:30 AM, OneLight said:

I stay away from trying to figure out the timing of when this will happen.  I stick only to what scripture says, which is "at the last trumpet" as you cross reference it with 1 Corinthians 15:52.

This is surely a difficult topic.  Reading the opposing views is like trying to get a drink of water from a wide open fire hydrant. I have been told by both pre-tribulation and pre wrath folks why the last trump cannot be the seventh trumpet. I simply cannot see why not, but I am trying.

I like to compare 1Corinthians 15:51&52  "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" to Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."  Notice how well these two verses compliment each other.  Paul shows us a mystery, which is to occur at the last trump and John finishes the mystery at the last trump.   

There are some who will consider your words, but not many.  You will find that most people are stern in their doctrine and would much rather debate then discuss, which is why I stay out of such discussions.  They are here to teach and not discuss.

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So the last trumph occurs just after the Mill when those born then and others who came into the Mill get their new bodies. These people's are the last to receive their immortal bodies. The Messiah has ruled these with a rod of iron.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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On 5/22/2018 at 12:32 AM, JoeChan82 said:

This is surely a difficult topic.  Reading the opposing views is like trying to get a drink of water from a wide open fire hydrant. I have been told by both pre-tribulation and pre wrath folks why the last trump cannot be the seventh trumpet. I simply cannot see why not, but I am trying.

 

Hello Joe.....

This is where I see the difference.

In 1Thes 4:16, it is the TRUMP of God.................................. In Rev 10:7, it is the TRUMP of an angel.

They can't be the same trump....obviously.

If we look at Jesus' first coming, we see that He came and fulfilled the FOUR spring feasts.....Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Pentecost.

At His second coming, He will fulfill the three fall feasts.....Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Feast of Tabernacles. 

Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah): This day is a day of blowing trumpets (shofar) calling all to repent. Traditionally this day is preceded by thirty days (and followed by ten days) of Teshuvah or repentance. At the conclusion of the day of Trumpets, one final powerful blast resounds on the shofar. This day prophetically speaks of the final call to repent before the return of the Messiah and the resurrection of righteous that occurs at the final trumpet blast.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel,and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first...."

This trump of God  is the FINAL TRUMPET BLAST at the Feast of Trumpets......

If we look at Rev 6 and 8, at the opening of the seals, we see that at the 7th seal, the resurrection of the righteous and the rapture having already taken place. It is AFTER the 7th seal that the angels were given their trumpets....(Rev 8:2)

 

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Posted (edited)

Just curious………… How is a "rapture" a secret if it if announced with a shout and a trumpet?

Edited by Willie T

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6 hours ago, Willie T said:

Just curious………… How is a "rapture" a secret if it if announced with a shout and a trumpet?

Well that's just it Willie. It's nonsense. A supposed "secret rapture" is just conjecture from the pre-trib camp.

What they can't answer is that the resurrection and the rapture are linked. So is the resurrection also a "secret resurrection"?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 King James Version (KJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Scripture is pretty clear on the Rapture and Resurrection. It isn't a secret. Christ descends from heaven with a SHOUT. Like He shouted when He raised Lazarus. " LAZARUS, COME FORTH!". If He didn't name him, then every tomb around the world would have opened and the dead come out. 

So there is a SHOUT.....a VOICE of the archangel.....and the TRUMP of God.

It will be ear piercing and bone rattling when Christ SHOUTS...................... " BELIEVERS, ARISE!"..........

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