Esau hated by God (before birth)?

[thomas t]

Dear community,

this is a spin-off from another thread.

Hi N2thelight,

I think you raised an interesting question asking why God hated Esau. The passage concerned is Romans 9:11-13.

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

 

Although Esau hasn't been born yet, he was instantly hated by God, as is announced by that passage (my interpretation).

 

And now you ask: " If God knows [...] why are we going through this, that would be an act of a cruel God, yet I know for a fact that He is just..... "

 

My answer to this would be: Esau didn't have a bad life, in my opinion, as he had as many as three wives - Gen 28:9.

In my view, even if it's true that God hated Esau determining that he will serve his younger brother... he was given a good life, that's how I read the story.

 

And then you ask (same posting): " Why didn't He kill satan when he rebelled? "

 

God doesn't like to kill, I think. This, in my opinion, is apparent from the fact that in the Garden of Eden there wasn't death - see Romans 5:12:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: "

 

Best regards,

Thomas

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by thomas t
grammar (I added a 'that')

[Billiards Ball]

A better understanding as I see it, regarding all predestination in the Bible, is that it is talking about entire nations (usually, Israel and a different nation):

Esau NEVER served Jacob, but the Edomites were beneath Israel at some point (Jacob and Esau's descendants).

It's hard to see Israel as so blessed, especially in the modern troubled times, but there are some Bible explanations as to why a whole nation of people, including some who trusted God and some who didn't, received special blessings.

Esau wasn't "pre-hated" by God, but his descendants suffered for his lack of vision. Confer with another remark nearby in Romans about jars of clay, commonly taken as individuals and salvation--the reference is Jeremiah 18 and the potter and clay in that passage are about the nation of Israel, not individuals!

[simplejeff]

YHVH hates Esau.   Simple.  True. 

Many individuals are cursed,  all their lives.  Simple. Truth.

Some individuals find freedom in Christ Jesus.  Simple.  Truth.

Multitudes of people may still be hated.  Simple.  True.

There is only one way to be saved,  in JESUS !   Simple. Truth.

[simplejeff]

4 hours ago, thomas t said:

Esau didn't have a bad life,

Yes,  Esau was wicked,  profane.   It is written. 

[ScottA]

4 hours ago, thomas t said:

Dear community,

this is a spin-off from another thread.

Hi N2thelight,

I think you raised an interesting question asking why God hated Esau. The passage concerned is Romans 9:11-13.

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

 

Although Esau hasn't been born yet, he was instantly hated by God, as is announced by that passage (my interpretation).

 

And now you ask: " If God knows [...] why are we going through this, that would be an act of a cruel God, yet I know for a fact that He is just..... "

 

My answer to this would be: Esau didn't have a bad life, in my opinion, as he had as many as three wives - Gen 28:9.

In my view, even if it's true that God hated Esau determining that he will serve his younger brother... he was given a good life, that's how I read the story.

 

And then you ask (same posting): " Why didn't He kill satan when he rebelled? "

 

God doesn't like to kill, I think. This, in my opinion, is apparent from the fact that in the Garden of Eden there wasn't death - see Romans 5:12:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: "

 

Best regards,

Thomas

 

 

 

 

The better and simpler answer, is that the scriptures are not of what God or people are doing, but rather a report in real time of what happened "before the foundation of the world" "in the twinkling of an eye."

In other words, Just as "I am"...this is how you "are", since before the foundation of the world: History is His story, and ours.

[simplejeff]

2 hours ago, ScottA said:

The better and simpler answer, is that the scriptures are not of what God or people are doing, but rather a report in real time of what happened "before the foundation of the world" "in the twinkling of an eye."

In other words, Just as "I am"...this is how you "are", since before the foundation of the world: History is His story, and ours.

This sounds dangerously (danger to truth/faith/life in Jesus)

like the heresy that all people or any person was alive before being created (Adam and Chavah) /  or conceived ....  

According to YHVH no one (no human life) was present before the world was created,  period,  and no one living on earth existed before being conceived in the womb by YHVH'S GIFT of LIFE.

[ScottA]

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

This sounds dangerously (danger to truth/faith/life in Jesus)

like the heresy that all people or any person was alive before being created (Adam and Chavah) /  or conceived ....  

According to YHVH no one (no human life) was present before the world was created,  period,  and no one living on earth existed before being conceived in the womb by YHVH'S GIFT of LIFE.

You misunderstand. I said it is in "real time." But, I did not say there was life before creation. I said, in a manner of speaking, that just as anything that has been quoted as being "before the foundation of the world", all things, including these times were also (before the foundation of the world)...because this is all just a "created" "image", laid out in "created" time, as a witness to all that "is", i.e., "I am."

But these truths are not easily understood by those whose only reference and reality is "created" time. Nonetheless, if you can receive it, "the seventh angel has sounded", and this is "the end of the mystery of God", according to "all truth."

[simplejeff]

21 minutes ago, ScottA said:

You misunderstand. I said it is in "real time." But, I did not say there was life before creation. 

Good, and I was hoping just to clarify that, positively as you did.    Some other visitors have posted as if there was human life created BEFORE the world was created,  and that is simply a false teaching associated with false gospels or other false teachings.

True,

22 minutes ago, ScottA said:

these truths are not easily understood

and are not necessarily meant to be,  except as God grants understanding of His Word, even to little children !  DELIGHTEDLY !

[n2thelight]

16 hours ago, thomas t said:

Dear community,

this is a spin-off from another thread.

Hi N2thelight,

I think you raised an interesting question asking why God hated Esau. The passage concerned is Romans 9:11-13.

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

 

Although Esau hasn't been born yet, he was instantly hated by God, as is announced by that passage (my interpretation).

 

And now you ask: " If God knows [...] why are we going through this, that would be an act of a cruel God, yet I know for a fact that He is just..... "

 

My answer to this would be: Esau didn't have a bad life, in my opinion, as he had as many as three wives - Gen 28:9.

In my view, even if it's true that God hated Esau determining that he will serve his younger brother... he was given a good life, that's how I read the story.

 

And then you ask (same posting): " Why didn't He kill satan when he rebelled? "

 

God doesn't like to kill, I think. This, in my opinion, is apparent from the fact that in the Garden of Eden there wasn't death - see Romans 5:12:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: "

 

Best regards,

Thomas

 

 

 

 

First I'd like to thank you for the civil manner in which we're discussing this,as Ive been called all kinds of names for what I see in scripture,the sad part is,it's from other Christians.If I'm wrong in my beliefs,show me instead of calling me names,and let God be the judge,as I alone will stand before Him.

 

With that said ,my point was why did God hate Easu,as I'm trying to show that we were with God from the beginning

I'll start from the book of Job

Job  38:1   "Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,"

 

Remember that Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, and Ezekiel witnessed God coming down in a whirlwind.  This "whirlwind" is the vehicle that God uses to transport his throne when He has a job to do here on earth.  Elihu told us that when a tempest of a storm comes, that God spoke from it.

 

Job  38:2   "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

 

God's first answer was in the form of a question.  Remember from verse three of chapter thirty six, Elihu said, "I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and I will ascribe righteousness to the Maker.   For truly my words shall not be false: He that is perfect in knowledge is with thee."  Elihu was presenting himself as a spokesman for God, and I feel that God was even personally addressing Elihu here.  God is asking Job; who is this man who is standing before you, claiming to have all knowledge, and knowing Me? 

 

This should be a warning to us today that there will be many that present themselves to be speaking for God, and all the time their words are empty.  We had better be careful what man or woman we study under.  If they are speaking on behalf of God and His Word, there had better be documentation direct from the Word of God.  Listening to teachers like Elihu is the sure way to be led astray. 

 

So God's first answer to Job is; What are you listening to these men for?  It is addressed to Job but aimed at Elihu, as well as the other three.   

 

Job  38:3   "Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me."

 

This is God's advise to Job.  Stand up like a man, for I am going to tell you a few things, and I will demand an answer of you.  In these early days men wore long robes, and when they were about to do some serious work and walking, they drew the back side of their robe between and through their legs, and tied it to their belt in front.  This is to "gird up now thy loins like a man", for there is going to be some serious discussion and God wanted Job alert. 

 

Job  38:4   "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Job   38:6   "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"

38:7 is where my point is

 

Job  38:7   "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

 

So my first question is, are you a son of God?

[simplejeff]

5 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

I'm trying to show that we were with God from the beginning

Later if there's time,  and if you really want to know,  you will find out that we were not with YHVH before we were conceived.  We were not alive before we were conceived, no, not anywhere.  

The best thing to do would be to look for the heresy of that belief, no matter if you think you just thought it up,

so you can see the beginning, the origin,  the source of that heresy .  

Also,  there are usually other heresies,  false teachings, and false gospels associated hand in hand together with that heresy.

See if you can locate those,   to see who started it (the devil),  and why (to deceive you and multitudes of others),

and realize FROM THE SOURCE OF IT,  it is evil,  and was never of YHVH , never of Scripture, never truth.

It is such a well-exposed heresy,  it should not take long to find the source of the heresy.   Then,  we or someone can proceed likewise to show you the truth from Scripture,  YHVH Willing.