It's Not Our Tribulation And We Want It Now

[OneLight]

48 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

erchomai is simply the root of the verb, not the tense. The tense is 2nd aorist, which can be found by going here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/11/18/t_conc_1178018

click on "Parse" for erchomai, and you will see the tense.

Even according to blueletterbible, it does not change the meaning

[WilliamL]

On 3/4/2018 at 2:56 PM, OneLight said:

Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

 

5 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Even according to blueletterbible, it does not change the meaning

How conveniently you quote what you want to see. All three of the boldface verbs above are aorist tense, but you only show one of them in the present tense-- has come -- while the other two you have in past tense. This is cherry picking your translations.

All three verb make perfect sense in the past tense, the common interpretation of aorist verbs. But that interpretation scuttles certain doctrinal viewpoint about the End Times, so people change the tenses of select verbs to suit their beliefs.

[OneLight]

47 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

How conveniently you quote what you want to see. All three of the boldface verbs above are aorist tense, but you only show one of them in the present tense-- has come -- while the other two you have in past tense. This is cherry picking your translations.

All three verb make perfect sense in the past tense, the common interpretation of aorist verbs. But that interpretation scuttles certain doctrinal viewpoint about the End Times, so people change the tenses of select verbs to suit their beliefs.

I used the NKJV.  If you had bothered checking my post you would of seen that, so there is no "cherry picking" going on, unless you want to see it that way, then you are cherry picking your battles when there is none to be had.  Here is the full passage, which I posted it before, from the NKJV bible.

Revelation 11:15-19

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”  And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

I suggest that if you have an issue with scripture, you know who to go to, and a hint is ... it's not me.  Now, if you have an issue with how I see the verse, then we can discuss your issue, if you make it known.

[WilliamL]

10 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I used the NKJV.  If you had bothered checking my post you would of seen that, so there is no "cherry picking" going on, ...

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, ...

I suggest that if you have an issue with scripture, you know who to go to...

ESV  The nations raged, but your wrath came,

NASB  And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came,

RSV  The nations raged, but thy wrath came,

 

I have no issues with scripture as originally written. My issue is with how it is interpreted. You chose the NKJV as your preferred choice for your doctrinal view. I beg to differ with your choice of versions and with your doctrinal view.

God's Wrath clearly is witnessed to begin at the 6th Seal, right after He and His Son appear to all people, living and dead. By the 7th Trumpet, that Wrath will already have been manifesting for quite some time; and will continue to manifest throughout the period of the 7 Bowls.

Likewise, the raging of the nations mentioned above manifestly will begin with the first two Seals, Conquest and War; therefore, again, well before the 7th Trumpet.

[OneLight]

11 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

35 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I used the NKJV.  If you had bothered checking my post you would of seen that, so there is no "cherry picking" going on, ...

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, ...

I suggest that if you have an issue with scripture, you know who to go to...

ESV  The nations raged, but your wrath came,

NASB  And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came,

RSV  The nations raged, but thy wrath came,

 

I have no issues with scripture as originally written. My issue is with how it is interpreted. You chose the NKJV as your preferred choice for your doctrinal view. I beg to differ with your choice of versions and with your doctrinal view.

God's Wrath clearly is witnessed to begin at the 6th Seal, right after He and His Son appear to all people, living and dead. By the 7th Trumpet, that Wrath will already have been manifesting for quite some time; and will continue to manifest throughout the period of the 7 Bowls.

Likewise, the raging of the nations mentioned above manifestly will begin with the first two Seals, Conquest and War; therefore, again, well before the 7th Trumpet.

The world, if that is who you choose to believe, believed His wrath came at that time and they hid themselves fearing that it is all over.  Yet, they had to endure much more and only at the 7th trumpet are we told by the 24 elders that His wrath has come, or is here now.    Again, here is the simple version.

ἔρχομαι  erchomai G2064

 

1.     to come

1.     of persons

1.     to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning

2.     to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public

2.     metaph.

1.     to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence

2.     be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto

3.     to go, to follow one

Now turn to Revelation 16 to see when Gods wrath is poured out in the bowl judgments. 

Now, I have no idea where you found the idea that "God's Wrath clearly is witnessed to begin at the 6th Seal, right after He and His Son appear to all people, living and dead."   Care to unpack that for me?

 

[Unfailing Presence]

After six pages failing to provide any post-trib rapture rationale that does not point to themselves as being the  tribulation's preeminent super hero/ show horses it is quite typical and very consistent of post-tribulation theology .

The theory literally has no place to go other than self magnification , placing themselves in the middle of everything .

Their underlying premise  that God could never accomplish what will be done  in the tribulation without them .

However being so enamored with one's self  lends no credence, and actually detracts from the feasibility of the self -congratulatory post-tribulation rapture theory  .  

Biblically speaking  .

Whereas the pre-tribulation theology which actually diminishes the importance of current believers in the tribulation is quite  in keeping with Christ's Word concerning meekness & humility .

[WilliamL]

On 3/8/2018 at 3:39 PM, OneLight said:

The world, if that is who you choose to believe, believed His wrath came at that time and they hid themselves fearing that it is all over.  Yet, they had to endure much more and only at the 7th trumpet are we told by the 24 elders that His wrath has come, or is here now.

OK, I'll give you the longer answer (excerpted from my early blog post, The Last Shofar: The Latter Horn of Redemption), showing some of the many parallel OT and NT witnesses about the Lord's Coming. Note especially the section in large print:

 

In Hebrews 12:18-28, Paul directly relates and compares the ancient gathering of Israel unto earthly Mount Sinai to the End Time gathering of the Church unto heavenly Mount Zion:

For you are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire [= Sinai], and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet [the shofar of Ex. 19:16, 19]…but you are come to [heavenly] Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn having been registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men having been made perfect, [and] to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant… Heb. 12:18-19, 22-24

Notice the direct contrast between 1) the earthly Mount Sinai at the assembling of carnal Israel on Earth, and 2) the heavenly Mount Zion at the assembling of the sanctified Church in heaven. (Paul makes the same contrast in Galatians 4:21-31.) This direct comparison between

– lower versus upper mountains;

– carnal (first) versus sanctifying (second/new) covenants;

– Old Covenant mediator Moses (Gal. 3:19) versus New Covenant mediator Jesus;

– first versus latter trumpets,

is continued in verses 25-26:

See that you do not refuse him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused him who spoke on earth […all the people…said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us…” Ex. 20:18-19], much more shall we not escape if we turn away from him who speaks from heaven [Jesus: 1 Thes. 4:16 above] – whose voice then shook the earth, but now…“[will] shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” (See Haggai 2:6; 3:21)

This latter-day “turning away” from God’s Presence is described in Rev. 6:15-16:

And the kings of the earth and the great men and the rich men and the commanders and the mighty men and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said, “…hide us from the Face of the one sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.”

Isaiah 2:10-21 also speaks of this time. Verse 19:

They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily.

And also Rev. 1:7:

Behold, He [Jesus] is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn/wail because of Him.

which brings us, conclusively, to Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:30:

… then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

At Mount Sinai, most of God’s called-out assembly, Israel, “stood afar off” (Ex.20:18) – “turned away,” as Paul puts it – from the Lord’s Presence amid the fearsome atmospheric and earthly disturbances.

Paul says even greater disturbances will take place at the Last Shofar, when the Lord comes again. Thus, God’s called out assembly, the Church, must be ready to overcome their natural-born fear of the signs and the Face, and not turn away.

Those whose overcome and are ready will go up to be with the Lord upon the heavenly Mount Zion, even as Moses, Joshua, Aaron, and the 70 elders went up into the Presence on Mount Sinai. “Those who are ready” (Matt. 25:10; cf. Ex. 19:11) will go in with the Bridegroom at his coming, immediately following the heavenly and earthly cataclysms and “great sound of a trumpet [shofar]” of the Sixth Seal = Matt. 24:29-31 = 1 Thes 4:16-17 = Heb. 12:25-28 = Isaiah 2:10-21 = Rev. 1:7.

Those who are not ready, both of the worldly and among Israel and the Church, won’t go up, and will enter into the times of God’s wrath. That wrath begins after the Sixth Seal is opened – “the great day of his wrath is come,” Rev. 6:16 – and extends throughout the Seven angelic Trumpets (the Judgment of Israel), and finally the Seven Bowls (the Judgment of the Nations.)

On 3/8/2018 at 3:39 PM, OneLight said:

Now, I have no idea where you found the idea that "God's Wrath clearly is witnessed to begin at the 6th Seal, right after He and His Son appear to all people, living and dead."   Care to unpack that for me?

All explained in the passages above. Each of the scriptures cited in large print have some of the details but not others, but all taken together, they tell us that Jesus will come in the clouds of heaven, and every eye will see both Him and His Father [the latter being "the face of the one sitting on the throne"], and because of this, the heathen will mourn and wail, because they have rejected both God and His Son. Because of that rejection of God's Messiah/Anointed One, God's Wrath begins to be poured out at the 6th Seal, and "is finished" (Rev. 15:1) with the Bowls.

The same Father-Son-Nations-Wrath message is foretold in a nutshell in Psalm 2.