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It's Not Our Tribulation And We Want It Now


Unfailing Presence

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28 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Either Worthy discusses it in full with all the points addressed, or not at all.

I'm new to this forum, but I agree. Let's have an open discussion, in the spirit of brotherly love.

Pre-trib........... mid-trib............. post-trib............and pre-wrath.... everyone put forth their scriptural evidence. 

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45 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

The thing is, post and mid-trib rapture viewpoints fail to answer several important questions; until those questions are addressed (such as the post trib rapture not accounting for the countless number of rebels in revelation chapter 20 (led by Satan) that emerge near the end of the millennial reign), it cannot have any credence. And every time I have posted these questions, all I have gotten are "replies" that either accuse me of attacking someone, or immediately switching to a different point and attempting to dissect that.

The stance of this board against the pre-trib rapture is very well known; if only its' stance against teaching that goes clearly against Scripture (replacement theology, SDA-adherence, etc) were as vehement.

So, Unfailing Presence: I agree with you on this, but I'm afraid any discussion on the pre-trib rapture is not going to be able to be addressed here due to pre-existing prejudice against it. And until it can be discussed evenly and openly without such, then any point made against the pre-trib rapture also has to be disqualified.

Either Worthy discusses it in full with all the points addressed, or not at all.

-Sojo414 out.

There is a stance against pre trib rapture on this forum? Ive been here 14 yrs and never saw that. 

I believe the stance of this site is that certain doctrines that are against the bible like replacement theology are things that should be given leniency to discuss in the hopes of leading people out of error. Pre, mid or post rapture is one of those disputable things that are not salvational errors so that all that matters is that there isnt hostility in posting. But this is just my understanding of how this site is. Not the official view of the mods. 

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45 minutes ago, ayin jade said:

There is a stance against pre trib rapture on this forum? Ive been here 14 yrs and never saw that. 

I believe the stance of this site is that certain doctrines that are against the bible like replacement theology are things that should be given leniency to discuss in the hopes of leading people out of error. Pre, mid or post rapture is one of those disputable things that are not salvational errors so that all that matters is that there isnt hostility in posting. But this is just my understanding of how this site is. Not the official view of the mods. 

14 yrs and you have never seen a common theme of Pre-Trib believers   seeking to preserve their flesh , afraid of  the tribulation  ?

Really ?

I've been here less than 14 months and see it replete  .

Tell me then , in 14 years what is the most common negative characteristic you have seen attributed to Pre -Trib ?

Or are you saying you have never seen them characterized  negatively   ?

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Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."
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11 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Just for the record. There is no official position of Worthy that I know of vis-a-vis pre-trib v post-trib. I suspect that the ministry team runs the gamut in eschatological viewpoints.

Thank you Steve ,

If I might ask what do you think of my belief , that the fact that people are being " raptured "   wherever you want to place rapture , does not make those being raptured the main focus of what God is in the process of accomplishing at that very moment ?

In fact it is not about them at all , God is simply clearing the table in order to reset it and  fulfil His antecedent Promise which will not return to Him unfulfilled 

I should add that there are plenty of pre-trib believers unable to be released from within and see the rapture as being not about them but God removing an obstacle to

accomplishing more of His sacred Promise here on earth .

                                                        " Fear not for I have redeemed thee , I have called thee by thy name .

                                                            Thou art Mine . "                   ( Isaiah 43 :1 ) 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, JoeCanada said:
12 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Either Worthy discusses it in full with all the points addressed, or not at all.

I'm new to this forum, but I agree. Let's have an open discussion, in the spirit of brotherly love.

Pre-trib........... mid-trib............. post-trib............and pre-wrath.... everyone put forth their scriptural evidence. 

Well, there is one other point that is not mentioned for the most part, which is the one I stand by.  It is "at the last trumpet".  Where that land on a timeline I am not sure as we are to always be ready.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.  Therefore comfort one another with these words.

For this reason, I don't join any of the above mentioned groups.  The event will happen when it is His time for it to happen, not before nor after, but at the perfect time.

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The 'last trumpet' is not the last trumpet of Revelation's trumpets. I used to believe that it was. When the angel blows the 7th trumpet, then we will be raptured (I thought)....... but that means us Christians are right in the middle of God's wrath. And scripture tell us that we will not face the wrath of God. 

So then here is an explanation of the last trumpet that the apostle Paul refers to:....and it makes sense

The phrase used by Jesus in Matt. 24:36 is peculiar. The “day and hour that no one knows” was a Jewish idiom in Jesus’s day. It was a “code” word for the Jewish Holiday, Yom Teruah (which today is referred to as Rosh Hashan.

 Jesus frequently used Jewish idioms in his teaching, so idiom usage was not unusual or unexpected. In Matt. 8:11, Jesus referred to the “feast” and “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” In the first century, Israelites believed the honored guests at the wedding feast in the Millennial Kingdom would be the “seven shepherds:” Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, and King David. By referring to a feast and the first three of the honored guests, Jesus’s audience understood him.

When Jesus called Nathaniel as a disciple, he mentioned he saw him “under the fig tree” (John 1:48).  In the First Century this idiom referred to study of the Torah in the Millennial Kingdom (using a reference to Micah 4:4 and Zech. 3:10)[ii]. All of Jesus’s words were carefully chosen and understood by his audience although we may misinterpret them today. This includes the phrase “the day and hour no man knows.”

Joseph Lenard and Donald Zoller in their landmark book The Last Shofar express the question about Yom Teruah this way:

“How can such an apparent contradiction be reconciled with Matthew 24:36 and other Scriptures so as to let us know the date without knowing the day or hour?”[iii] – Lenard and Zoller

The authors make an important distinction between date and day; a distinction that eludes most western commentators. The date of Yom Teruah is Tishri 1 on the Jewish lunar calendar. This date is known as the “Hidden Day” (Yom Hakeseh) or the “day and hour that no man knows.” Yom Teruah falls on the first of the month, and the first day of each Jewish month is determined by the sighting of a New Moon. Because this is also the first day of the New Year and a MO’EDIM (Yom Teruah), this sighting is of particular importance. In biblical times, two witnesses were assigned this task by the Sanhedrin. This sighting (by the two witnesses) can take place on either of two possible days and at any hour of the night. Thus the date is known: Tishri 1, but the day and hour of this sighting is unknown.

After the sighting of the new moon, the High Priest ordered the blowing of trumpets. This is of incredible importance in understanding Jesus’s phrase in Matt. 24:36. All of the inhabitants of Jerusalem could look up at the waning moon and observe the moment the last sliver became dark, but that was not Yom Teruah. The MO’EDIM did not begin until the High Priest and the Sanhedrin announced it was Yom Teruah.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus prophesied many detailed aspects of the time prior to his return. He is God after all. Yet, western commentators would have us believe God the Son doesn’t know the day of his own return. Rather, what Jesus’s statement about “only the Father” knowing may have meant: “it isn’t the Yom Teruah (of the Rapture) until God the Father announces it’s Yom Teruah.” Only the Father knows; only the Father announces it. This parallels the system used in ancient Israel where the High Priest announced the MO’EDIM and ordered the blowing of trumpets. God the Father will announce the blowing of the Last Trumpet.

 The Greek word translated “knows” in Matt. 24:36 is EIDO which primarily means “to see, to perceive or to know because you perceive.” Translated that way, the verse would read:

But of that day and hour no one SEES, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. (Matt. 24:36)

 Yom Teruah is known as the Feast of the Blowing of Trumpets, including the Last Trumpet (TEKIAH GADOLAH [1 Cor. 15:52]). In Jewish thought, there were three trumpet blasts on MO’EDIM. The First Trumpet was blown on Pentecost or Shavuot and the Last Trumpet was blown on Yom Teruah. The Final or Great Trumpet was blown on Yom Kippur of Jubilee years to announce the Jubilee.  So when Paul referred to the Last Trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52, this was a specific reference to Yom Teruah.

 

Pay attention to this line from the article above......."This sighting (by the two witnesses) can take place on either of two possible days and at any hour of the night. Thus the date is known: Tishri 1, but the day and hour of this sighting is unknown".

It's quite possible that the celestial disturbance of Rev 6:12 could block out the sighting of the new moon so that only God the Father can see it. Makes logical sense. 

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5 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

The 'last trumpet' is not the last trumpet of Revelation's trumpets. I used to believe that it was. When the angel blows the 7th trumpet, then we will be raptured (I thought)....... but that means us Christians are right in the middle of God's wrath. And scripture tell us that we will not face the wrath of God. 

So then here is an explanation of the last trumpet that the apostle Paul refers to:....and it makes sense

The phrase used by Jesus in Matt. 24:36 is peculiar. The “day and hour that no one knows” was a Jewish idiom in Jesus’s day. It was a “code” word for the Jewish Holiday, Yom Teruah (which today is referred to as Rosh Hashan.

 Jesus frequently used Jewish idioms in his teaching, so idiom usage was not unusual or unexpected. In Matt. 8:11, Jesus referred to the “feast” and “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” In the first century, Israelites believed the honored guests at the wedding feast in the Millennial Kingdom would be the “seven shepherds:” Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, and King David. By referring to a feast and the first three of the honored guests, Jesus’s audience understood him.

When Jesus called Nathaniel as a disciple, he mentioned he saw him “under the fig tree” (John 1:48).  In the First Century this idiom referred to study of the Torah in the Millennial Kingdom (using a reference to Micah 4:4 and Zech. 3:10)[ii]. All of Jesus’s words were carefully chosen and understood by his audience although we may misinterpret them today. This includes the phrase “the day and hour no man knows.”

Joseph Lenard and Donald Zoller in their landmark book The Last Shofar express the question about Yom Teruah this way:

“How can such an apparent contradiction be reconciled with Matthew 24:36 and other Scriptures so as to let us know the date without knowing the day or hour?”[iii] – Lenard and Zoller

The authors make an important distinction between date and day; a distinction that eludes most western commentators. The date of Yom Teruah is Tishri 1 on the Jewish lunar calendar. This date is known as the “Hidden Day” (Yom Hakeseh) or the “day and hour that no man knows.” Yom Teruah falls on the first of the month, and the first day of each Jewish month is determined by the sighting of a New Moon. Because this is also the first day of the New Year and a MO’EDIM (Yom Teruah), this sighting is of particular importance. In biblical times, two witnesses were assigned this task by the Sanhedrin. This sighting (by the two witnesses) can take place on either of two possible days and at any hour of the night. Thus the date is known: Tishri 1, but the day and hour of this sighting is unknown.

After the sighting of the new moon, the High Priest ordered the blowing of trumpets. This is of incredible importance in understanding Jesus’s phrase in Matt. 24:36. All of the inhabitants of Jerusalem could look up at the waning moon and observe the moment the last sliver became dark, but that was not Yom Teruah. The MO’EDIM did not begin until the High Priest and the Sanhedrin announced it was Yom Teruah.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus prophesied many detailed aspects of the time prior to his return. He is God after all. Yet, western commentators would have us believe God the Son doesn’t know the day of his own return. Rather, what Jesus’s statement about “only the Father” knowing may have meant: “it isn’t the Yom Teruah (of the Rapture) until God the Father announces it’s Yom Teruah.” Only the Father knows; only the Father announces it. This parallels the system used in ancient Israel where the High Priest announced the MO’EDIM and ordered the blowing of trumpets. God the Father will announce the blowing of the Last Trumpet.

 The Greek word translated “knows” in Matt. 24:36 is EIDO which primarily means “to see, to perceive or to know because you perceive.” Translated that way, the verse would read:

But of that day and hour no one SEES, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. (Matt. 24:36)

 Yom Teruah is known as the Feast of the Blowing of Trumpets, including the Last Trumpet (TEKIAH GADOLAH [1 Cor. 15:52]). In Jewish thought, there were three trumpet blasts on MO’EDIM. The First Trumpet was blown on Pentecost or Shavuot and the Last Trumpet was blown on Yom Teruah. The Final or Great Trumpet was blown on Yom Kippur of Jubilee years to announce the Jubilee.  So when Paul referred to the Last Trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52, this was a specific reference to Yom Teruah.

 

Pay attention to this line from the article above......."This sighting (by the two witnesses) can take place on either of two possible days and at any hour of the night. Thus the date is known: Tishri 1, but the day and hour of this sighting is unknown".

It's quite possible that the celestial disturbance of Rev 6:12 could block out the sighting of the new moon so that only God the Father can see it. Makes logical sense. 

However you read the last trumpet is between you and God, not me.  When does not make any difference.  The fact that scripture tells us it will be at the last trumpet is good enough for me.  I'll let you debate what that means with those who need to pin-point the time.

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The answer is in the riddle - not known to the living, but to the dead.

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On 2/24/2018 at 9:51 AM, OneLight said:

What a very saddening post to read, not because of whom you are writing about, but because of your heart.  Am I to assume that you know every single person well enough to say that those who believe in the "post-tribulation" are all like this, or did you just wake up on the wrong side of the bed today?

After much trial and error, crashing my head against the headboard dozens of times trying to get out of bed. I discovered there's only one way to properly get out of bed on the right side. Being hardheaded myself, it took me time and learning to negotiate things the 'right way'.  

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