It's Not Our Tribulation And We Want It Now

[ScottA]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The 'last trumpet' is not the last trumpet of Revelation's trumpets. I used to believe that it was. When the angel blows the 7th trumpet, then we will be raptured (I thought)....... but that means us Christians are right in the middle of God's wrath. And scripture tell us that we will not face the wrath of God. 

So then here is an explanation of the last trumpet that the apostle Paul refers to:....and it makes sense

The phrase used by Jesus in Matt. 24:36 is peculiar. The “day and hour that no one knows” was a Jewish idiom in Jesus’s day. It was a “code” word for the Jewish Holiday, Yom Teruah (which today is referred to as Rosh Hashan.

 Jesus frequently used Jewish idioms in his teaching, so idiom usage was not unusual or unexpected. In Matt. 8:11, Jesus referred to the “feast” and “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” In the first century, Israelites believed the honored guests at the wedding feast in the Millennial Kingdom would be the “seven shepherds:” Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, and King David. By referring to a feast and the first three of the honored guests, Jesus’s audience understood him.

When Jesus called Nathaniel as a disciple, he mentioned he saw him “under the fig tree” (John 1:48).  In the First Century this idiom referred to study of the Torah in the Millennial Kingdom (using a reference to Micah 4:4 and Zech. 3:10)[ii]. All of Jesus’s words were carefully chosen and understood by his audience although we may misinterpret them today. This includes the phrase “the day and hour no man knows.”

Joseph Lenard and Donald Zoller in their landmark book The Last Shofar express the question about Yom Teruah this way:

“How can such an apparent contradiction be reconciled with Matthew 24:36 and other Scriptures so as to let us know the date without knowing the day or hour?”[iii] – Lenard and Zoller

The authors make an important distinction between date and day; a distinction that eludes most western commentators. The date of Yom Teruah is Tishri 1 on the Jewish lunar calendar. This date is known as the “Hidden Day” (Yom Hakeseh) or the “day and hour that no man knows.” Yom Teruah falls on the first of the month, and the first day of each Jewish month is determined by the sighting of a New Moon. Because this is also the first day of the New Year and a MO’EDIM (Yom Teruah), this sighting is of particular importance. In biblical times, two witnesses were assigned this task by the Sanhedrin. This sighting (by the two witnesses) can take place on either of two possible days and at any hour of the night. Thus the date is known: Tishri 1, but the day and hour of this sighting is unknown.

After the sighting of the new moon, the High Priest ordered the blowing of trumpets. This is of incredible importance in understanding Jesus’s phrase in Matt. 24:36. All of the inhabitants of Jerusalem could look up at the waning moon and observe the moment the last sliver became dark, but that was not Yom Teruah. The MO’EDIM did not begin until the High Priest and the Sanhedrin announced it was Yom Teruah.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus prophesied many detailed aspects of the time prior to his return. He is God after all. Yet, western commentators would have us believe God the Son doesn’t know the day of his own return. Rather, what Jesus’s statement about “only the Father” knowing may have meant: “it isn’t the Yom Teruah (of the Rapture) until God the Father announces it’s Yom Teruah.” Only the Father knows; only the Father announces it. This parallels the system used in ancient Israel where the High Priest announced the MO’EDIM and ordered the blowing of trumpets. God the Father will announce the blowing of the Last Trumpet.

 The Greek word translated “knows” in Matt. 24:36 is EIDO which primarily means “to see, to perceive or to know because you perceive.” Translated that way, the verse would read:

But of that day and hour no one SEES, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. (Matt. 24:36)

 Yom Teruah is known as the Feast of the Blowing of Trumpets, including the Last Trumpet (TEKIAH GADOLAH [1 Cor. 15:52]). In Jewish thought, there were three trumpet blasts on MO’EDIM. The First Trumpet was blown on Pentecost or Shavuot and the Last Trumpet was blown on Yom Teruah. The Final or Great Trumpet was blown on Yom Kippur of Jubilee years to announce the Jubilee.  So when Paul referred to the Last Trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52, this was a specific reference to Yom Teruah.

 

Pay attention to this line from the article above......."This sighting (by the two witnesses) can take place on either of two possible days and at any hour of the night. Thus the date is known: Tishri 1, but the day and hour of this sighting is unknown".

It's quite possible that the celestial disturbance of Rev 6:12 could block out the sighting of the new moon so that only God the Father can see it. Makes logical sense. 

Christians do not face the wrath of God, for we are saved. But tribulations we do face. 

The riddle is this - which is better understood by reading 1 Thessalonians 4, than 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

¹³ But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. ¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.^[a]

¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words.

...Those who are asleep, are said to be asleep because they are DEAD (to the world). And the only way that "every eye will see" what the dead see who have preceded us...is if we also die, meaning: that is when the time clock of history stops, whether you were born yesterday or thousands of years ago.

The point of 1 Thessalonians 4, is that the dead know "the day and the hour"...because that is the moment they died and the moment they "precede" "we who are alive and remain." The time for them coming into the knowledge of "the day and the hour" of the Lords coming for us...is the same for us - but we won't know "the day and the hour" until the same thing happens to us. You see, the passage does tell us "the day and the hour", but it doesn't tell us except when the knowledge came to them, which was in death. That is "the day and the hour" - which "no man knows" while he is alive.

This is the meaning behind Yom Teruah, which only the dead know...because they are "in Christ" and risen.

@Sojourner414  

[Unfailing Presence]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 10:23 PM, Unfailing Presence said:

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:31 PM, ayin jade said:

There is a stance against pre trib rapture on this forum? Ive been here 14 yrs and never saw that. 

I believe the stance of this site is that certain doctrines that are against the bible like replacement theology are things that should be given leniency to discuss in the hopes of leading people out of error. Pre, mid or post rapture is one of those disputable things that are not salvational errors so that all that matters is that there isnt hostility in posting. But this is just my understanding of how this site is. Not the official view of the mods. 

14 yrs and you have never seen a common theme of Pre-Trib believers   seeking to preserve their flesh , afraid of  the tribulation  ?

Really ?

I've been here less than 14 months and see it replete  .

Tell me then , in 14 years what is the most common negative characteristic you have seen attributed to Pre -Trib ?

Or are you saying you have never seen them characterized  negatively   ?

                          ?

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Unfailing Presence said:

On 2/24/2018 at 10:23 PM, Unfailing Presence said:

On 2/24/2018 at 9:31 PM, ayin jade said:

There is a stance against pre trib rapture on this forum? Ive been here 14 yrs and never saw that. 

I believe the stance of this site is that certain doctrines that are against the bible like replacement theology are things that should be given leniency to discuss in the hopes of leading people out of error. Pre, mid or post rapture is one of those disputable things that are not salvational errors so that all that matters is that there isnt hostility in posting. But this is just my understanding of how this site is. Not the official view of the mods. 

14 yrs and you have never seen a common theme of Pre-Trib believers   seeking to preserve their flesh , afraid of  the tribulation  ?

Really ?

I've been here less than 14 months and see it replete  .

Tell me then , in 14 years what is the most common negative characteristic you have seen attributed to Pre -Trib ?

Or are you saying you have never seen them characterized  negatively   ?

                          ?

I'm not Ayin, but I can speak from the 11 years I have been here.  Every stance about the tribulation has been heavily debated and insults have been hurled from all sides, which is why I rarely post in those threads.  Do a search yourself if you need proof.  For most of my time here I have been in ministry and review all the reports created by members when the insults started, sometime requiring us to read through the whole thread.  Pre-Trib believers are not excluded from those who insulted other beliefs.  No group is.

[enoob57]

that's why I'm so short It's very difficult to get a shot on me....

[Unfailing Presence]

9 hours ago, OneLight said:

11 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 10:23 PM, Unfailing Presence said:

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:31 PM, ayin jade said:

There is a stance against pre trib rapture on this forum? Ive been here 14 yrs and never saw that. 

I believe the stance of this site is that certain doctrines that are against the bible like replacement theology are things that should be given leniency to discuss in the hopes of leading people out of error. Pre, mid or post rapture is one of those disputable things that are not salvational errors so that all that matters is that there isnt hostility in posting. But this is just my understanding of how this site is. Not the official view of the mods. 

14 yrs and you have never seen a common theme of Pre-Trib believers   seeking to preserve their flesh , afraid of  the tribulation  ?

Really ?

I've been here less than 14 months and see it replete  .

Tell me then , in 14 years what is the most common negative characteristic you have seen attributed to Pre -Trib ?

Or are you saying you have never seen them characterized  negatively   ?

                          ?

I'm not Ayin, but I can speak from the 11 years I have been here.  Every stance about the tribulation has been heavily debated and insults have been hurled from all sides, which is why I rarely post in those threads.  Do a search yourself if you need proof.  For most of my time here I have been in ministry and review all the reports created by members when the insults started, sometime requiring us to read through the whole thread.  Pre-Trib believers are not excluded from those who insulted other beliefs.  No group is

Characterizing me  of being afraid or scared of going through the tribulation  is hardly what I   would consider an " insult " .

We are all adults here . 

Such superficial sophomoric allegations go right to the source ,  speak volumes about the person making them , and are really quite amusing to me and I like answering them .

In the realm of Christian forum settings such as this  the source of 98 % of hurt feelings is most often getting caught  with your theological pants down .

That is usually all it takes for some to start  stomping their feet , wringing their hands , and calling for those who have so hurt their feelings to be silenced , squelched , censored .

It's not easy being wrong , and I'm sure initiating such strong positions in such a public way only to be shown you are wrong is  synonymous with feeling insulted .

I've been there before , but it is not the same thing .

The irony is it is most often those who had started the conversation that end up running to  the sheltering  apron strings of an administrator  .

[OneLight]

9 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Characterizing me  of being afraid or scared of going through the tribulation  is hardly what I   would consider an " insult " .

We are all adults here . 

Such superficial sophomoric allegations go right to the source ,  speak volumes about the person making them , and are really quite amusing to me and I like answering them .

In the realm of Christian forum settings such as this  the source of 98 % of hurt feelings is most often getting caught  with your theological pants down .

That is usually all it takes for some to start for some to start stomping their feet , wringing their hands , and calling for those who have so hurt their feelings to silenced ,

squelched ,censored .

It's not easy being wrong , and I'm sure initiating such strong positions in such a public way only to be shown you are wrong is  synonymous with feeling insulted .

I've been there before . 

But that is more of a personal problem . 

The irony is it is most often those who had started the conversation that end up running to  the sheltering  apron strings of an administrator  .

I know that for the most part, they report each other, not just one sided.  There are also those who read in disgust and report the post themselves while not having anything to do with the thread.

[inchrist]

On 25/02/2018 at 7:01 PM, JoeCanada said:

The 'last trumpet' is not the last trumpet of Revelation's trumpets. I used to believe that it was. When the angel blows the 7th trumpet, then we will be raptured (I thought)....... but that means us Christians are right in the middle of God's wrath. And scripture tell us that we will not face the wrath of God. 

 

7th trumpet of revelation is the only place where it is stated the time has come for the dead to be judged....

Rev 11:18

The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,

 

Right at the time of wrath not during the time of wrath....the wrath of God begins with the bowls...hence the bowls of wrath.

 Pay attention to this line from the article above......."This sighting (by the two witnesses) can take place on either of two possible days and at any hour of the night. Thus the date is known: Tishri 1, but the day and hour of this sighting is unknown".

But where are your two witnesses at the 6th seal?

The 2 witness die at the 7th trumpet.... witnessing the resurrection of the day of Lord being again at the last trumpet the 7th trumpet

The day of the Lord 

The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 2/28/2018 at 3:40 AM, inchrist said:

7th trumpet of revelation is the only place where it is stated the time has come for the dead to be judged....

Rev 11:18

The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,

 

The nations WERE angry,
    and your wrath CAME.
The time CAME for judging the dead,

These are three Greek aorist verbs, generally translated as SIMPLE PAST TENSE. We are clearly told in Rev. 6:16 that the Wrath of God begins at the 6th Seal. By the 7th Trumpet, the coming of God's Wrath was past tense, already begun (but not ended).

A similar translation problem/mistake is found in Rev. 19:8 --

“Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come CAME, and His wife has  MADE herself ready.”

Rev. 19:7-8 is reviewing events that already took place at the Rapture, not events that are about to take place at that time. The King James translators were subtly altering the text to their view, and most subsequent English translations have followed their lead.

 

 

 

[OneLight]

7 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

On 2/28/2018 at 5:40 AM, inchrist said:

7th trumpet of revelation is the only place where it is stated the time has come for the dead to be judged....

Rev 11:18

The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,

 

The nations WERE angry,
    and your wrath CAME.
The time CAME for judging the dead,

These are three Greek aorist verbs, generally translated as SIMPLE PAST TENSE. We are clearly told in Rev. 6:16 that the Wrath of God begins at the 6th Seal. By the 7th Trumpet, the coming of God's Wrath was past tense, already begun (but not ended).

A similar translation problem/mistake is found in Rev. 19:8 --

“Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come CAME, and His wife has  MADE herself ready.”

Rev. 19:7-8 is reviewing events that already took place at the Rapture, not events that are about to take place at that time. The King James translators were subtly altering the text to their view, and most subsequent English translations have followed their lead.

"Is come" or "has come" is the Greek word "ἔρχομαι

", translated into "erchomai " G2064, which means

1. to come
   1. of persons
      1. to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning
      2. to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public
2. metaph.
   1. to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence
   2. be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto
3. to go, to follow one

At the sound of the 7th trumpet, the statement is made in heaven by the 24 Elders that

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

It does not mean "came" as you claim.

[WilliamL]

On 3/4/2018 at 2:56 PM, OneLight said:

"Is come" or "has come" is the Greek word "ἔρχομαι

", translated into "erchomai " G2064, which means

1. to come
   1. of persons
      1. to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning
      2. to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public
2. metaph.
   1. to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence
   2. be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto
3. to go, to follow one

... It does not mean "came" as you claim.

erchomai is simply the root of the verb, not the tense. The tense is 2nd aorist, which can be found by going here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/11/18/t_conc_1178018

click on "Parse" for erchomai, and you will see the tense.