The Times of the Gentiles...Luke 21: 20-28

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

I really don't go by the term/name Messiah,  I leave that for the Jewish Nation.  I go by the name Christ.  Jesus Christ our Lord, Jesus Christ My Lord.  There is only One Christ (most used name).  If you look at this, Jesus is His birth name (human name).  Christ or Anointed One (Messiah), Son of God.

The point of Dan 9:24, is, where is Daniels people's Messiah.  And when will they accept Him.  For this is what the 70 Sevens are all about.  Their acceptance of their Messiah.

With us, Christ is not our Christ unless we acknowledge and accept Him and follow Him.  With Israel, Christ (Messiah) in not their Messiah until they acknowledge and accept Him and follow Him.  They accept Him at the end of the One Seven.  A One Seven is 2,520 continuous days.  I can find the middle of this number.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Shalom, Montana Marv.

Boy, are YOU confused.

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

So now Jesus was referring everyone to something that occurred 168 years before He even came to earth?  Ridiculous.  And why would He warn people to flee 168 years after the event happened?  The abomination of desolation isn't some recurring event, otherwise people wouldn't recognize it when it happens.    

Wingnut

I seldom agree with Roy, but in this particular case he is correct.  This portion, Dan 11:21-35, is about Antiochus IV Epiphanes the Syrian king..  It is a prototype (A/D) of what will happen later (for me, mid 70th Week) in our future.  Dan 11:1-20 is from Darius to this person.

Jesus was quoting/referring to Dan 9:27; 12:11.  When you see standing.... (Matt 24:15)  Now this A/D is what is being referenced.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Wingnut

I seldom agree with Roy, but in this particular case he is correct.  This portion, Dan 11:21-35, is about Antiochus IV Epiphanes the Syrian king.

 

 

Well brother, I have to disagree with you both on this, and again, let's just examine what follows, including some of the verses you attribute to it.

 

Daniel 11:34 When they stumble, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery, 35 and some of the wise shall stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made white, until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed time.

 

Is this possible 168 years before Jesus?  How exactly can one make themselves pure and white?

God bless

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, wingnut- said:

So now Jesus was referring everyone to something that occurred 168 years before He even came to earth?  Ridiculous.  And why would He warn people to flee 168 years after the event happened?  The abomination of desolation isn't some recurring event, otherwise people wouldn't recognize it when it happens.    

Shabbat shalom, wingnut-.

Ever see the cartoon movie, Fern Gully? "Wrong channel, Batty!" In your case, "Wrong chapter, wingnut!"

Yeshua` wasn't talking about Daniel chapter 11; He was talking about Daniel chapter 9! Be very careful about taking a phrase and making it a LABEL! It's not the "Abomination of Desolation," as though it was the TITLE of a particular event! It's a PHRASE and the words MEAN something!

See, in Daniel 11:31, the phrase is "v-naatnuw hashiqquwts m-showmeem," meaning "and-they-shall-place the-abomination of-desolation." And, BibleHub lists these three Hebrew words as "verb-noun-verb." That abomination that they placed in the Temple during Antiochus IV's reign was the statue of Zeus Olympius. And, between its presence in the Temple and the sacrifices of pigs upon the Altar, this act definitely caused a "desolation" to occur. That is, the Temple was defiled and had to be cleansed before it could be used again to sacrifice to YHWH.

In Daniel 9:27, the phrase is "v`al knaf shiqquwtsiym m-showmeem" meaning "and-upon/against a-spread-out-wing of-abominations he-shall-make-it-desolate." THIS is to what Yeshua` meant in the Olivet Discourse. Furthermore, the end of verse 27 has the following phrase: "v`ad kaalaah v-necheraatsaah tittakh `al shomeem," meaning "and-until completion and-that-decided shall-be-poured upon/against desolate."

It was Yeshua`s condemnation of the P'rushiym and the transcribers/experts of the Law (listed in Matthew 23) that delineated the spread of abominations to which Yeshua` denounced them as "play actors" or "pretenders" ("hupokritai"). For these reasons, He pronounced them "desolate," and all things decided would be poured upon them, the "desolate."

Ironically, the abominations that led to the Jews' desolation, gave the desolation that caused the ULTIMATE abomination to the Jews - the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., and that's why it is worded the way Yeshua` worded it in Matthew 24 and Mark 13:

Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 

Mark 13:14 (KJV)

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

In both cases, the Greek is "Hotan ideete to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos," which means "When ye-shall-see the abomination of-the desolation." This refers to that "ULTIMATE abomination" - the invasion of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. The associated verses from Luke 21 confirm this:

Luke 21:20-21 (KJV)

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

39 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

Well brother, I have to disagree with you both on this, and again, let's just examine what follows, including some of the verses you attribute to it.

 

Daniel 11:34 When they stumble, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery, 35 and some of the wise shall stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made white, until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed time.

 

Is this possible 168 years before Jesus?  How exactly can one make themselves pure and white?

God bless

Shabbat shalom, Wingnut.

Actually, you've misunderstood what you just quoted. Look carefully at Daniel 11:34 again. It doesn't say "they MADE THEMSELVES pure and white." All it says is that "they may BE refined, purified, and made white." As in ALL matters of being "made pure," the One who purifies is GOD! And, He had already prescribed for them how to purify the Temple and themselves in the Torah (the Pentateuch). This is PRECISELY what the Maccabees (the Hammer) and the Hasmonean priests did after this defilement, and GOD purified them!

I know you think we've "grown out of the stage" of needing the Torah, but it would do you wonders to study it from time to time.

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Ever see the cartoon movie, Fern Gully? "Wrong channel, Batty!" In your case, "Wrong chapter, wingnut!"

 

Sorry, there weren't "chapters" when He quoted it, those came later and lead to a lot of confusion.  Like trying to separate what follows, when it is a continuation of the same prophecy.  None of this, is true of Antiochus IV.

 

Daniel 11:36 “And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done. 37 He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.

 

It was a statue of Zeus.  Zeus, the god of his fathers, which he paid attention to by placing his statue in the temple.

 

You also want to separate them from chapter 12, yet what is said specifically in both these chapters.

 

Daniel 11:31 Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate.

 

Daniel 12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished. 8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?” 9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

 

You can talk in circles all you want, it doesn't sell to anyone but preterists.  Is Daniel standing in his allotted place then, before Jesus had even come?  What happened in history 1335 days later that made those who waited and arrived then blessed?

The dilemma should be quite obvious, you cannot separate the two, because Daniel sure didn't.  So either exactly 1335 days later, Daniel stood in his allotted place, which would have been sometime around 165-164 BC.

Or if you want to try and convert those days to years, then Daniel stood in his allotted place sometime around 1167 AD.  Neither of those scenarios is even slightly sensible.

Furthermore, if you want to talk history, here are some facts regarding Antiochus IV.  He wasn't in Jerusalem when the first rebellion started, Menelaus who had bought his way to the high priest position, had to travel to him to explain why he had not fulfilled his payment for the position.  While he was gone, Jason, who was the original appointed high priest, was backed by the Jews who were opposed to Menelaus, a Tobiad, not a descendant of Aaron.

It was because of this successful rebellion that Antiochus IV returned to Jerusalem, slaughtered a bunch of people, and reinstated Menelaus as high priest.  Then he left Jerusalem again, and a second rebellion began.  In response to this second rebellion, Judaism was outlawed, circumcision was forbidden, the Torah was not allowed to be read, and the keeping of kashrut (Jewish dietary laws) was also forbidden.  THEN the statue of Zeus was placed in the temple, none of which Antiochus IV was present for.

 

 

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Actually, you've misunderstood what you just quoted. Look carefully at Daniel 11:34 again. It doesn't say "they MADE THEMSELVES pure and white." All it says is that "they may BE refined, purified, and made white."

 

No, I understood it just fine, that was precisely my point.  People cannot make themselves pure or white, only Jesus can do that.  Only one path to salvation, and you are arguing it happened roughly 198 years prematurely.

 

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

And, He had already prescribed for them how to purify the Temple and themselves in the Torah (the Pentateuch).

 

I am not talking about the temple, nor does the passage, it is referring to the people specifically.  And since when are people purified to the end of time by any act of the law?  And yes, the passage is specific that it is to "the end of time."

 

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

I know you think we've "grown out of the stage" of needing the Torah, but it would do you wonders to study it from time to time.

 

Oh really?  You know what I think and my study habits now?  Disappointed that you would resort to a remark like this, not called for.  

[Montana Marv]

Antiochus IV did sacrifice a pig on the altar during his reign. This was a type of a future A/D to be set up.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Sorry, there weren't "chapters" when He quoted it, those came later and lead to a lot of confusion. 

Shabbat shalom, wingnut-.

You're quite right. On the other hand, there WERE breaks in thought just the same. When chapter divisions were instituted, they gave SOME consideration to these breaks in thought and tried to adhere to them with the chapter divisions, although they were only human and made mistakes along the way.

For instance, look at the beginning of Daniel 9:

Daniel 9:1-6 (KJV)

1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; 2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: 4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; 5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments: 6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

Daniel is showing a definite break in thought from chapter 8 by introducing a different time period and a new subject. Thus, many accept the chapter division without argument. The same is true for the end of chapter 9 and the beginning of chapter 10 - new thought:

Daniel 10:1-2 (KJV)

1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.

Again, a new time period and a new subject.

However, between chapters 11 and 12, no such definite break can be found. Indeed, the only apparent reason for a break is to keep the length of chapter 11 limited. Good job!

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Like trying to separate what follows, when it is a continuation of the same prophecy.  None of this, is true of Antiochus IV.

Daniel 11:36 “And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done. 37 He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.

It was a statue of Zeus.  Zeus, the god of his fathers, which he paid attention to by placing his statue in the temple.

Again, I am in full agreement with you that "none of this [11:36] is true of Antiochus IV." Well said. HOWEVER, chapter 11 is NOT "all about Antiochus IV." Looking at the timing of verses 29 through 35, we are definitely NOT looking at the same person in verse 36 and following! But, why do we have to jump a gap of 2200 years?! No, there's another who came on the scene shortly after the Hasmonean dynasty when Rome took over control of the Land from the Seleucid Empire. It was the Idumean, Herod the Great, the Roman client king who was installed by Caesar Augustus, who succeeded Antigonas II Mattathias the Hasmonean as "king of Judaea." These verses fit Herod the Great very well! He was the one who defied the God of Israel, the One beloved by women who hoped to be the bearer of the Messiah, by killing all the male babies 2 years old and younger!

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

You also want to separate them from chapter 12, yet what is said specifically in both these chapters.

Daniel 11:31 Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate.

No, I don't! The break in thought doesn't occur until between 12:3 and 12:4! Verse 31 IS, however, talking about Antiochus IV.

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Daniel 12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished. 8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?” 9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

In verses 12:9 through 13 he is talking to Daniel regarding the imminent fulfillments coming, closer to His own time period. This gives details regarding Antiochus IV again. He ends with the promise that, after Daniel's death, he shall be resurrected.

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

You can talk in circles all you want, it doesn't sell to anyone but preterists.  Is Daniel standing in his allotted place then, before Jesus had even come?  What happened in history 1335 days later that made those who waited and arrived then blessed?

No, 1335 days after the desecration of the Temple, was the time that the Temple was finally PURIFIED! It was the time when the eight days of Chanukkah were experienced! For eight days, God extended the amount of "oil in the cruise," keeping the lamp burning, until the ritual of purification could be completed! That you don't know this only serves to prove that you were never taught your Jewish heritage.

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The dilemma should be quite obvious, you cannot separate the two, because Daniel sure didn't.  So either exactly 1335 days later, Daniel stood in his allotted place, which would have been sometime around 165-164 BC.

No, you didn't follow the reading correctly. He doesn't equate the "1335 days later" with "Daniel standing in his allotted place!" You're "mixing apples and oranges." What he said was,

12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.

A new thought is introduced in verse 13, and Daniel is told to follow his path to the end of his life. He would "rest," that is "sleep" in death, and "shall stand in his allotted place," that is, be resurrected and restored, "at the end of the days," referring back to 12:2-3.

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Or if you want to try and convert those days to years, then Daniel stood in his allotted place sometime around 1167 AD.  Neither of those scenarios is even slightly sensible.

No, I agree. None of that "days to years" nonsense has any merit. I don't do "magic numbers."

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Furthermore, if you want to talk history, here are some facts regarding Antiochus IV.  He wasn't in Jerusalem when the first rebellion started, Menelaus who had bought his way to the high priest position, had to travel to him to explain why he had not fulfilled his payment for the position.  While he was gone, Jason, who was the original appointed high priest, was backed by the Jews who were opposed to Menelaus, a Tobiad, not a descendant of Aaron.

It was because of this successful rebellion that Antiochus IV returned to Jerusalem, slaughtered a bunch of people, and reinstated Menelaus as high priest.  Then he left Jerusalem again, and a second rebellion began.  In response to this second rebellion, Judaism was outlawed, circumcision was forbidden, the Torah was not allowed to be read, and the keeping of kashrut (Jewish dietary laws) was also forbidden.  THEN the statue of Zeus was placed in the temple, none of which Antiochus IV was present for.

First, Antiochus IV wouldn't have to be physically IN Jerusalem to have things done in Jerusalem. He was, after all, the reigning king of Judaea under his Seleucid Empire.

Second, fit your facts in with these:

Quote

 

DANIEL 11:25 "He shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the South with a great army. And the king of the South shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand, for they shall devise plans against him." (NKJV) 

In 170 BCE, when Antiochus IV felt secure about the state of his own kingdom, he decided to take Egypt by force in what came to be known as the Sixth Syrian War. He regarded Ptolemy VI as a weak ruler and therefore not capable of successfully waging war against him. Antiochus IV was able to move his army to the border of Egypt before he was met by the Egyptians at Pelusium, which is near the Nile Delta. The Egyptians had a large army arrayed against him there. Antiochus, risking death by riding into the midst of the battle of Pelusium, ordered the Egyptians to be taken alive instead of slain. By this policy, he gained Pelusium and later took Memphis.

DANIEL 11:26 "Yes, those who eat of the portion of his delicacies shall destroy him; his army shall be swept away, and many shall fall down slain." (NKJV) 

Ptolemy VI's army, although large, was not able to withstand Antiochus IV. In large part, this was due to the intrigues of Antiochus IV, who corrupted several of the Egyptian ministers and officers. This was one of the main causes of the defeat of Ptolemy VI. Those who were in his confidence and possessed the secrets of the state betrayed him to Antiochus IV. For example, Ptolemy Macron (also called "Ptolemy the son of Dorymenes") had been appointed by Ptolemy VI as governor of Cyprus. However, sensing the young king's weakness, he deserted to Antiochus IV, who made him governor of Coele Syria and Phoenicia.

DANIEL 11:27 "Both these kings' hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time." (NKJV) 

After he took control of Pelusium and Memphis, Antiochus IV set his sights on Alexandria. Due to the intrigues of Antiochus IV mentioned in verse 26, the Alexandrians had renounced their allegiance to Ptolemy VI, and had made his younger brother, Ptolemy VII Euergetes, king in his place. While at Memphis, Antiochus IV and Ptolemy VI had frequent conferences. Antiochus IV professed his great friendship to his nephew and concern for his interests, but his true plan was to weaken Egypt by setting the brothers against one another.

Conversely, Ptolemy VI professed gratitude to his uncle for the interest he took in his affairs. He laid the blame of the war upon his minister Eulaeus, one the guardians appointed to watch over him after his father's death. All the while, Ptolemy VI sought to smooth over things with his brother Ptolemy VII so they could join forces against their deceitful uncle, Antiochus IV.

DANIEL 11:28 "While returning to his land with great riches, his heart shall be moved against the holy covenant; so he shall do damage and return to his own land." (NKJV) 

While Antiochus IV was engaged in Egypt, a false rumor arose in Judea that he had been killed. This prompted deposed high priest Jason to raise an army of 1,000 men and attack Jerusalem. His army captured the city and forced the high priest Menelaus to take refuge in the Akra fortress in Jerusalem. When news of the fighting in Jerusalem reached Antiochus IV, he took it to mean that Judea was in revolt against him.

Antiochus IV left Egypt; on his way home, he and his armies marched against Jerusalem. He commanded his soldiers to kill everyone they encountered (men, women, and children). Within the space of three days, his forces had killed somewhere between 40,000 and 80,000 people. A similar number were captured and sold into slavery.

Not satisfied with the slaughter, Antiochus IV entered the Temple and (guided by Menelaus) took the holy vessels, including the golden altar, the menorah, the table for the showbread, the cups for drink offerings, the bowls, the golden censers, the curtain, the crowns, and the gold decoration on the front of the temple. He took all the silver and gold, as well as the hidden treasures which he found. After appointing the Phrygian Phillip as governor in Jerusalem, Antiochus IV then returned to Antioch.

DANIEL 11:29 "At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter." (NKJV) 

Meanwhile, in Egypt brothers Ptolemy VI and Ptolemy VII reconciled and agreed to share power. This annulled Antiochus IV's alliance with Ptolemy VI and caused his loss of control over the Ptolemaic kingdom. Because of this, in 168 BCE Antiochus IV once again sought to go to war against Egypt. However, this time he would not have the same success as he achieved previously.

DANIEL 11:30 "For ships from Cyprus [Kittim] shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage. So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant." (NKJV) 

Because they knew that they could not defeat Antiochus IV alone, the Ptolemy brothers appealed to Rome for help. In order to check the threat of Greek expansion, the Romans agreed to provide assistance. The "ships from Kittim" here refer to the ships which brought the Roman legions to Egypt in fulfillment of the defense pact.

As Antiochus IV and his army marched toward Alexandria, they were met by three Roman senators led by Gaius Popillius Laenas in Eleusis, a suburb of Alexandria. There, Roman ambassador Popillius delivered to Antiochus IV the Senate's demand that he withdraw from Egypt. When the king requested time for consultation, Popillius drew a circle around Antiochus IV with a stick he was carrying and told him not to leave the circle until he gave his response. The king of the North was astonished at this display of Roman arrogance, but after a brief time, said he would do all that the Romans demanded.

On his return to Syria, Antiochus IV tried to ease the sting of the humiliation he had suffered at the hands of the Romans by taking out his frustration on the Jews in Judea. His armies encircled Jerusalem and then attacked. All those Jews who resisted were executed. However, the pro Hellenistic Jews who allied themselves with Antiochus IV were left unharmed.

DANIEL 11:31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation." (NKJV) 

Antiochus IV's army desecrated the Temple and stopped the daily sacrifices. On the 15th of Kislev, in December 168 BCE, the Syrians built a pagan altar over the altar of burnt offering in the Temple and placed an image of Zeus Olympius upon it. Ten days later, on the 25th of Kislev, swine's flesh was offered on the altar to Zeus.

 

(See more at HereALittleThereALittle.net.) As a matter of fact, you may have to go back in Daniel 11 farther to see how Jason and Menelaus fit into Antiochus' regime.

I TRULY hope this helps you see the bigger picture of history.

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, wingnut- said:

No, I understood it just fine, that was precisely my point.  People cannot make themselves pure or white, only Jesus can do that.  Only one path to salvation, and you are arguing it happened roughly 198 years prematurely.

Shabbat shalom, wingnut-.

Sorry this is late in coming, but I had a good post going and LOST it thanks to "Worthy Ministries / What is a Christian?" popping up when I was trying to click on the "B" for Bold-facing. When that happens, sometimes I can back out of it with my post intact, but often I lose the post entirely and have to start from scratch. It's REALLY annoying. I hope I can remember everything I wrote to you before.

Anyway, let me start by saying I love you, brother. That's why I spend so much time talking to you about these matters. 

Now, let me ask you: Wasn't David a man of God? Wasn't Eliyahuw (Elijah) a man of God? Wasn't Yesha`yahuw (Isaiah) a man of God? Weren't some of the other, lesser names in the Old Testament, like Mikhaah (Micah), Aharown (Aaron), and even Mosheh (Moses) men of God?  Would you really PRESUME to speak for God in saying that "only Jesus can make people pure or white?" (I really don't think you would presume to do any such thing.) It is GOD who justifies! What does God Himself say?

Isaiah 1:10-20 (KJV)

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Do you think that David was just "keeping the Law?"

Psalm 130:1-8 (KJV)

1 {A Song of degrees.}

Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD.
2 Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications.
3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.
5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.
6 My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning.
7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.
8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

What did Mikhaah say?

Micah 6:6-8 (KJV)

6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

What did Paul say in Romans?

Romans 4:1-12 (KJV)

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6). 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin (Psalm 32:1-2).

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

When were these things said?

Genesis 15:1-7 (KJV)

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

and,

Psalm 32:1-2 (KJV)

1{A Psalm of David, Maschil.}

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Do either of these sound like people being justified by the deeds of the Law?

Paul said it best to the Galatians:

Galatians 3:6-22 (KJV)

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it beconfirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

There's no difference between the OT saints and the NT ones. NONE were justified by God through the works of the Law. ALL were justified by God through FAITH!

16 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I am not talking about the temple, nor does the passage, it is referring to the people specifically.  And since when are people purified to the end of time by any act of the law?  And yes, the passage is specific that it is to "the end of time."

No, the "time of the end" is not the same as "the end of time." As said above, "The words 'until the time of the end' refer to the end of this second period of Jewish sovereignty." They do NOT refer to "the end of time!" This is talking about the PURIFICATION OF THE TEMPLE, the articles within the Temple, and the people who do the service of the Temple. These had to undergo the purification rituals and God EXTENDED the oil to keep the lamp lit for eight days beyond what it should have been able to fuel. Thus, the holiday of Chanukkah was started in commemoration of God's miraculous power.

16 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Oh really?  You know what I think and my study habits now?  Disappointed that you would resort to a remark like this, not called for.  

No, you took what I said the wrong way. I'm only suggesting that you understand that our OT brothers and sisters were just that: BROTHERS and SISTERS! Don't condemn them for being born too early!

(sigh.) This post isn't as good as the original, but I hope you can glean something good from it.