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Just How Close is the RAPTURE?


Dennis1209

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9 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

sure they so … mid and post are not imminent but dated... amills  are just no where.

That is the point the Post-Tribs are trying to show.  All the scripture about the resurrection/rapture is dated nullifying the pre-trib position. 

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Understand this .... the Lord is always present and He knows what is going on all of the time

And He will execute His actions as He sees fit .... and when He is ready

This stuff about the Lord coming and going is of no credit

He is here now and everywhere at the same time .... you just cannot see Him

So do not tell that He comes and goes .... He is all consuming

Those who are stuck in various ideas related to His actions are fooling themselves with man made theologies 

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45 minutes ago, Brother Duke said:

That is the point the Post-Tribs are trying to show.  All the scripture about the resurrection/rapture is dated nullifying the pre-trib position. 

This makes absolutely no sense to dating... the events of the tribulation are all dated an timed according to Scripture -7 year period mid is 3.5 and post end of 7... they were expecting early church and 2 thousand years later we expect. All showing imminence without knowing time or date!

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Enoob57

Keep in mind that the post tribulation rant is sham

Those who post this stuff are either deceived, or they are false teachers by design

it is significant to know that the Lord's extraction of the church just before the tribulation period begins is true

 

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9 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

it is significant to know that the Lord's extraction of the church just before the tribulation period begins is true

How in the heck can you  and other rapturist claim this in light of the below verse

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Now you will say,this is written for Israel and not for the Church,can you please show scripture that says such a thing?

There has only been two choices since the Garden,I can go before the Garden but I won't,the two choices

The tree of Life

The tree of knowledge of good and evil..

If those whom are Israel don't believe in Christ they are cut off from their own tree,with no special consideration from God just because they are Israel,as a matter of fact they are no longer Israel.

To be in Christ,you are Israel,ie,belonging to that Seed of Abraham,whom is Christ.There is now no such thing as the Church Israel and Gentiles.You either belong to Christ,or you don't,period!!!!

Gentile simply meant any nation other than Israel from whom the Gospel of Christ would come through.

Who has spread the Gospel throughout the world?Has it not been Christians?In other words,please stop telling me about that nation state whom don't even believe in Christ.

Now let's talk about the 2nd problem

Will just focus on this saying,that goes like,in the rapture Christ comes for His Church,but at the 2nd coming He comes with His Church,here's another case of butchering scripture to make it say what you want.

Let's start with what happens at death be you in Christ or not

 

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

This is the death of the flesh

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

The spirit is who you are,as stated by Paul

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

How many bodies in that verse?is it not two?Your flesh goes back to dust,it's not gonna rise again,ever!!!

Which brings me to how Christ brings them with Him,and it's not because they were raptured but because they got there at death

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These ain't no tribulation saints,rather ALL throughout time that have died for the Word of God!!!

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Again these are not tribulation saints as rapturist would have us believe

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

These will be joined by those who will die during the tribulation

Revelation 7:13 "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir [My Lord], thou knowest. and he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Again these are not tribulation saints,but those in Christ who took a stand against satan during the tribulation...

Now let's see when they come back

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

What's the subject?Where are the dead,corrrect?

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

When does He bring them?At His 2nd coming...

Now let's get to the mystery

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

Those who have died(sleep),have already changed.

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Those alive at the return of Christ will be changed to as those whom Christ brings with Him...

 

No rapture,PERIOD!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, n2thelight said:

How in the heck can you  and other rapturist claim this in light of the below verse

You would be surprised at the level of cognitive dissonance that some people can abide.

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19 hours ago, enoob57 said:

We are to rightly divide the Scriptures by cutting them straight 

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

The one division those opposed to pre-trib understanding is that of the tribulation of the believer:

As of now we are in tribulation by sin, the devil and the curse placed upon the world by God for it... this is what Jesus spoke of here

John 16:33 (KJV)

[33] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

1 Peter 5:8 (KJV)

[8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

John 15:18 (KJV)

[18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

[19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

[20] Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

[21] But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

 

now the right of division comes into fact of here

Luke 3:7 (KJV)

[7] Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

*Note this wrath is not yet here  'to come'

 

Matthew 24:21 (KJV)

[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

*Note this period is like no other time in human history up to this event Jesus spoke of

thus

This wrath to come is The Great Tribulation that is to come and is God pouring His wrath out for the rejecters of His Son

Ephesians 5:6 (KJV)

[6] Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

 

*note the wrath spoken of here, during the church age, is still not come

1 Thessalonians 1:9 (KJV)

[9] For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

The distinction is clearly made

Ephesians 2:3 (KJV)

[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV)

[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

The Great Tribulation is the appointed wrath where God pours out His wrath and the elect that is there could only be for two reasons:

1. They were converted during...

2. They have added to the Scripture...

Revelation 22:18 (KJV)

[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

We have no problem with the fact that the church will not be the recipient of God's wrath, we believe that very thing, because it is clearly stated numerous times in the Holy Scriptures. God doesn't pour out His wrath upon His own faithful servants. So why do you contend that He does? You teach that the "tribulation saints", those who are martyred for the testimony of Jesus Christ, experience the wrath of God. That is very inconsistent with How God has operated. It is also contradictory to His Word to us, who are believers in Christ, that we are not appointed unto wrath.

Pray tell, where does it say that the great tribulation is the eschatological wrath of God? The Scriptures say that no where. The Scriptures present the great tribulation as an intensification of the persecution that the Church and the Jew presently face. This intensification in scope and severity brings our persecution to an unprecedented level, a level so severe that it threatens to extinguish from the earth every last believer (Matt 24:22).

Hallelujah

 

 

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20 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The Doctrine of imminence is Pre-Trib Rapture 
snip:

Imminency in the New Testament

 

The fact that Christ could return, but may not soon, at any moment, yet without the necessity of signs preceding His return, requires the kind of imminence taught by pretribulationism.

 

What New Testament passages teach this truth? Those verses stating that Christ could return at any moment, without warning and those instructing believers to wait and look for the Lord's coming teach the doctrine of imminence. Note the following New Testament passages:

  • 1 Corinthians 1:7 - "awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,"
  • 1 Corinthians 16:22 - "Maranatha."
  • Philippians 3:20 - "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;"
  • Philippians 4:5 - "The Lord is near."
  • 1 Thessalonians 1:10 - "to wait for His Son from heaven,"
  • 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 - "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."
  • 1 Thessalonians 5:6 - "so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober."
  • 1 Timothy 6:14 - "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,"
  • Titus 2:13 - "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;"
  • Hebrews 9:28 - "so Christ . . . shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."
  • James 5:7-9 - "Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. . . . for the coming of the Lord is at hand. . . . behold, the Judge is standing right at the door."
  • 1 Peter 1:13 - "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."
  • Jude 21 - "waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
  • Revelation 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20 - "'I am coming quickly!'"
  • Revelation 22:17, 20 - "And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' And let the one who hears say, 'Come.'" ..."He who testifies to these things says, 'Yes, I am coming quickly.' Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

It is significant that all of the above passages relate to the rapture and speak of the Lord's coming as something that could occur at any-moment, that it is imminent. This is why believers are waiting for a person - Jesus Christ - not just an event or series of events such as those related to the tribulation leading up to Christ's second advent in which He returns to the earth and remains for His millennial reign.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

First of all, not a single one of these verses say that Jesus could come unexpectedly at any moment and rapture us. These verses teach watchful expectancy, not imminence.

Secondly, these verses refer to the one future coming (parousia) of Jesus Christ. It is the "second" (Heb 9:28) coming, and there will not be a third. It involves His "revelation", in such "apokalupsis" all the world shall see our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ and the holy angels coming in the clouds of Heaven.

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Thirdly, the context of 1Thes 5:6 is the day of the Lord (vs 2) which is His second coming. Christ's activity that is recorded in Rev 19 is not His arrival at His parousia, it is the destruction of the Beast and the armies that follow him at the end of the week which happens long after His arrival.

Enough for now.

Hallelujah

Edited by Steve Conley
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Your post should be enough forever Conley .... it is a total sham

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21 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The one division those opposed to pre-trib understanding is that of the tribulation of the believer:

As of now we are in tribulation by sin, the devil and the curse placed upon the world by God for it... this is what Jesus spoke of here

John 16:33 (KJV)

[33] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

1 Peter 5:8 (KJV)

[8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

John 15:18 (KJV)

[18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

[19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

[20] Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

[21] But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

 

now the right of division comes into fact of here

Luke 3:7 (KJV)

[7] Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

*Note this wrath is not yet here  'to come'

 

Matthew 24:21 (KJV)

[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

*Note this period is like no other time in human history up to this event Jesus spoke of

thus

This wrath to come is The Great Tribulation that is to come and is God pouring His wrath out for the rejecters of His Son

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Steven, I understand fully where you are coming from, I taught the pre-trib model for 30 years. I believe I can show you where you are making an assumption which colors the rest of your eschatological understanding.

When you jump from Luke 3:7 to Matt 24:21 you are making an assumption. If you wish to have firm footing for your eschatological understanding you must from the text of Matt 24 derive what great tribulation is. From that text or any other it cannot be shown to be the wrath of God. Jesus makes it rather clear what "great tribulation" is in Matt 24, if one will simply observe the time related words and the connecting adverbs, like "therefore".

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Note that the context of Christ's answer is the end of the age, the time period of His parousia)
Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9   Then (following the beginning of sorrows) shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (thlipsis), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then (during this persecution) shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then (when the gospel has been preached in all the world) shall the end come.
Mat 24:15  When (the timing of the defiling of the temple spoken of by Daniel) ye therefore (refers back to the persecution that follows the beginning of sorrows) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then (at the defiling of the temple, the abomination of desolation, which begins unprecedented persecution) let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21  For then (at the defiling of the temple) shall be great tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23  Then (during this unprecedented persecution) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore (because of false Christs) if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29  Immediately after (at once, following the unprecedented persecution) the tribulation (thlipsis) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then (subsequent to the cosmic sign) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then (at the appearing of Christ) shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I hope this helps you to see that great tribulation is the unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel and not the wrath of God poured out upon the day of the Lord. Nothing is said in this text about the wrath of God.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

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