The Significance of the Technical Term "Earth Dwellers" to the Formation of a Biblical Eschatological Model

[Daniel 11:36]

Agreed except for Matthew 24:20-31

This scripture is all about Israel during the tribulation period

[Last Daze]

54 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Last Daze, indeed, if God chose to, he could protect the church through His wrath as he will the 144,000 Jewish virgin men (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes with the exception of Dan) and the woman of Rev 12. However, we are told that we will be gathered by the angels unto Jesus before He pours out His wrath in the trumpet and vial judgements.

John witnessed the great earthquake and cosmic sign which will announce Christ's impending arrival (Ref 6:12-17). Jesus tells us that his appearing follows the cosmic sign and that it is at that time that the elect (the church) are gathered to Him by the angels (Matt 24:29-31). John describes what he saw in heaven following this gathering (Rev 7:9-17). It is an innumerable company of believers in Jesus Christ (the Church) having received their glorified bodies standing before the throne of God. "These are they which came out of great tribulation". These are the resurrected and raptured saints. Paul said that there was an order to the resurrection of both the just and the unjust (1Cor 15:23). He said that the just would be resurrected first, "they that are Christ's at His coming". The rapture is always associated with the first resurrection (1Thes 4:13-17; 1Cor 15:51-52; Dan 12:1-2). Also, the first resurrection is said to involve those who experienced the great tribulation but didn't worship the Beast (Rev 20:4-6). The first resurrection happens at His coming (parousia).

Following the scene of the church in heaven, John says the seventh seal is opened and the first trumpet blown bringing the first stroke of God's wrath upon the earth dwellers (Rev 8).

The reason we must be removed from the earth is because the Word of God says we will. That is how God chose to remove the church from (kept...from) the sphere of His fierce indignation. It might be good for you to reexamine the use of tereo ek in John 17:15, paying close attention to what it is that Jesus prays His disciples be kept from.

Hallelujah

 

Hey Steve,

I'm familiar with the rationale for the pre-wrath position and held that view myself for several years.  

The multitude in Revelation 7 are identified specifically as coming out of the great tribulation.  Nothing suggests that others outside of that specific group are there.  And there is nothing to indicate that the group in Revelation 7 have their immortal bodies.  

It is true that Jesus' appearing comes after the signs He described in Matthew 24:29, and that those signs correlate to the sixth seal, but his appearing does not take place immediately after as you presume.  That's the fatal flaw of the pre-wrath view.  What does Jesus say appears after those signs?  The Son of Man?  No.  He says that the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky.  When reading the description of the sixth seal there's no mention that anyone sees the Son of Man. 

The sixth seal describes people who are hiding for fear of what's coming.  When Jesus describes His appearing, He says all the tribes of the earth will mourn which is quite a different reaction that hiding out of fear.

This is how I see Matthew 24:30:

And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky (this is the sixth seal),

(then the first six plagues take place)

and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  (this is the seventh plague)

Also, we know that the resurrection of the righteous unto immortality takes place on the last day.  The sixth seal is not really the last day of anything.  The seventh plague, however, is the last day of Satan's reign, and that's what this is all about . . . regime change.

That's how I see it anyway.   The main thing is that we are prepared to endure to the end, however it comes about.  And my prayer for the body of Christ is for spiritual discernment and perseverance for the months and years ahead.

[Unfailing Presence]

A believer cannot place him or her self in the midst of the tribulation short of giving themselves the preeminence  .

It is all about me, myself , & I 

There is literally no reason for them to be there short of self -glorification .

God simply not able  finalize the scripture with out them they would have you believe .

This is not the first time that pride and lifting up of the heart has caused a believer to boast about their preeminence in the future plans of God , ultimately to their own dismay .

                                               " Although all will be offended yet will not I "      ( Mark  14 : 29 )

[Keras]

17 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

A believer cannot place him or her self in the midst of the tribulation short of giving themselves the preeminence  .

It is all about me, myself , & I 

There is literally no reason for them to be there short of self -glorification .

God simply not able  finalize the scripture with out them they would have you believe .

This is not the first time that pride and lifting up of the heart has caused a believer to boast about their preeminence in the future plans of God , ultimately to their own dismay .

                                               " Although all will be offended yet will not I "      ( Mark  14 : 29 )

A believer cannot place him or her self in heaven without presuming themselves good enough to be there. It's all about themselves and the desire to avoid any hard times.

There is literally no reason for anyone to go to heaven, God has angels to serve Him there and Jesus said it was impossible. 

As we go through the last days, we will fulfil our destiny and become the people that God always wanted in His holy Land.

It is the arrogance and self-judgement of rapture to heaven believers, that will be their downfall, as what they wanted God to do for them; doesn't happen. 

Mark 14:29 Peter answered: Everyone else may lose their faith, but I will not.   Will you stand firm in your faith, as people die around you?  Psalms 91:7

Edited March 11, 2018 by Keras

[Unfailing Presence]

1 minute ago, Keras said:

19 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

A believer cannot place him or her self in the midst of the tribulation short of giving themselves the preeminence  .

It is all about me, myself , & I 

There is literally no reason for them to be there short of self -glorification .

God simply not able  finalize the scripture with out them they would have you believe .

This is not the first time that pride and lifting up of the heart has caused a believer to boast about their preeminence in the future plans of God , ultimately to their own dismay .

                                               " Although all will be offended yet will not I "      ( Mark  14 : 29 )

A believer cannot place him or her self in heaven without making themselves good enough to be there.

They certainly can . 

By the blood of this Jesus who is the Christ they can place themselves in heaven .

Interestingly  enough the same cannot be said about the believer placing themselves in the midst of the tribulation .

Only by self -glorification and lifting up of the heart in pride can they place themselves there .

[Keras]

2 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

They certainly can . 

By the blood of this Jesus who is the Christ they can place themselves in heaven .

Interestingly  enough the same cannot be said about the believer placing themselves in the midst of the tribulation .

Only by self -glorification and lifting up of the heart in pride can they place themselves there .

Sorry, we humans never go to heaven, we are earth people and we have tasks to do here. 

Our salvation thru Jesus, is from earthly sin and our names are kept in the Book of Life, kept in heaven.

Believers ARE on earth during the Great Trib; Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 prove it. They are ALL the faithful believers as Rev 12:6-17

The worst self-glorification I have ever seen, is those who expect to be whisked up to heaven at the first sign of troubles. 

[Unfailing Presence]

19 minutes ago, Keras said:

Believers ARE on earth during the Great Trib; Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 prove it. They are ALL the faithful believers as Rev 12:6-17

The worst self-glorification I have ever seen, is those who expect to be whisked up to heaven at the first sign of troubles.

I know of two people who were " whisked up to heaven "  so far this month .

And  the " first sign of troubles "  in their lives began decades ago .

It is interesting to me that you say believers " ARE on the earth during the great Trib"   yet you seem to be unable to provide any detail of purpose in them being there , or you are afraid to say ? 

[Keras]

4 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

I know of two people who were " whisked up to heaven "  so far this month .

And  the " first sign of troubles "  in their lives began decades ago .

Proof of this, please. 

4 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

It is interesting to me that you say believers " ARE on the earth during the great Trib"   yet you seem to be unable to provide any detail of purpose in them being there , or you are afraid to say ? 

I gave the scriptures that confirm Gods holy people are in earth during the GT. Daniel 7:25 and Rev 13:7  And do not say they are Jews, because there is only one holy people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6   Messianic Jews belong to God's people now. 

Me afraid to say? That's rich! It's you that seems afraid to provide scriptural proofs of your beliefs.  Other than your homily from Mark, [a mis translation by your KJV] your posts are barren of Biblical proofs. 

[Unfailing Presence]

5 hours ago, Keras said:

I gave the scriptures that confirm Gods holy people are in earth during the GT. Daniel 7:25 and Rev 13:7  And do not say they are Jews, because there is only one holy people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6   Messianic Jews belong to God's people now. 

Me afraid to say? That's rich! It's you that seems afraid to provide scriptural proofs of your beliefs.  Other than your homily from Mark, [a mis translation by your KJV] your posts are barren of Biblical proofs. 

Until you can say what believers in Jesus Christ are doing worshiping a " holy place "  :

                              " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet ,stand in the holy place ."  ( Matthew 24 : 15 )

Then you cannot make these people being given all of Jesus's attention in Matthew Christians . 

So for me to say these are not Christians worshiping at a " holy place " as the pre-trib position states is in complete accordance with this Jesus who is the Christ being the focus of all our praise and worship , and with His Word .

All believing Christians present  having been removed from the earth .

Whereas the post- trib   position of placing themselves in the midst of a Jewless  tribulation , must concoct  a scenario where believers in Christ are for some reason practicing 

the blatant unholy  Idolatry of worshiping a  " holy place " , rather than worshiping Christ .

Scriptural proof that the population Jesus is speaking to in Matthew concerning the " holy place " can only be a bunch self-important , don't know how to decrease , chest beating 

Christians by the most extreme violation of idolatry , combined with extreme spiritual gymnastics . 

 

[Daniel 11:36]

Those who try to attempt a universality of Matthew 24 related to the "church" are 100% wrong

This passage of scripture is all about Israel duringthe 70th week by location and by description

The Lord is not speaking about anything else in His discourse