The Significance of the Technical Term "Earth Dwellers" to the Formation of a Biblical Eschatological Model

[Steve Conley]

On 3/15/2018 at 6:03 AM, Unfailing Presence said:

"her seed " " seed of the woman " , is a direct reference to the Jews .

This " remnant "  being the " elect "  , yet another OT term for the Jews , that will come to Christ .

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

In my previous post I demonstrated the fact that we who are Christ's are Israel's seed, by virtue of being placed in Christ. It is in Christ that we are heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3:26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We, as wild olive branches, have been graffed into the root which is Christ. We have received and been partakers of Israel's promised redeemer, of their Messiah.

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

There are many ways to see that we have become the children of promise in Christ.

Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

On 3/15/2018 at 4:19 PM, Unfailing Presence said:

That not all Jews are the elect , but all the elect are Jews .

Every elect Jew today is a part of the Body of Christ. As is every Gentile believer. The church is the elect, the church is the chosen.

In the New Testament:

There are elect angels

(1Ti 5:21)  I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Jesus is said to be elect or chosen

(Luk 23:35)  And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

(1Pe 2:4)  To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

(1Pe 2:6)  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

John wrote to the elect lady and spoke of an elect sister

(2Jn 1:1)  The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

(2Jn 1:13)  The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

The apostles

(Joh 15:16)  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The church is the elect in the following passages

(These elect in Matt 24 and Mark 13 must be the church because Jesus implies that it is not possible for the very elect to be deceived (Matt 24:24) and Israel remains blind (deceivable) in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and there are still gentiles (Rev 7:9) being added to Christ in the great tribulation.)

(Mat 24:22)  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

(Mat 24:24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

(Mat 24:31)  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(Mar 13:20)  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

(Mar 13:22)  For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

(Mar 13:27)  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

(Luk 18:7)  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

(Rom 8:33)  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

(Rom 11:5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (These are Jewish believers who are part of the church)

(Rom 11:7)  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

(Col 3:12)  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

(1Th 1:4)  Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

(2Ti 2:10)  Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

(Tit 1:1)  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

(1Pe 1:2)  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(Mat 20:16)  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

(Mat 22:14)  For many are called, but few are chosen.

(Rom 16:13)  Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

(1Pe 2:9)  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

(2Pe 1:10)  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The chosen here would also include restored Israel

(Rev 17:14)  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

On 3/15/2018 at 11:28 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

All of chapter 12 is about Israel and not about believing Gentiles

Those who have relegated the detailed events of the last seven years of this age to the Jew exclusively, are missing, misapplying, or misunderstanding some very important truths revealed to us in The Holy Scriptures.

The idea of Revelation 12 being entirely about the Jew is predicated upon the unfounded belief that the church will be taken in a secret rapture (It is most certainly secret, because, the Bible says nothing of such a rapture. However, Jesus does detail a gathering of the elect by the angels after the great tribulation Matt 24:31) before the seventieth week begins. This false teaching is built upon a lot of circular reasoning and the misunderstanding of the character of the seventieth week. The seventieth week is not "the tribulation period", it is made up of: the beginning of sorrows, the great tribulation, and the beginning of the day of the Lord (which involves the pouring out of God's wrath) respectively. The beginning of sorrows takes the first 3.5 years and involves deception, conquest, war, and famine, but nothing is said to be unparalleled about it. The second is, unparalleled great tribulation, which begins in the middle of the week and continues an undisclosed period of time until it is cut short by the return of Christ, whose return is announced by the cosmic sign Joel prophesied would take place before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31). The last of the week is the period of God's wrath poured out upon the Beast worshipers who had persecuted the church and Israel in the great tribulation (2Thes 1:6-10). This wrath begins on the very day of Christ's return and our catching up to Him in the clouds by the angels (Luke 17:26-30).

Hallelujah

[Daniel 11:36]

"The idea of Revelation 12 being entirely about the Jew is predicated upon the unfounded belief that the church will be taken in a secret rapture (It is most certainly secret, because, the Bible says nothing of such a rapture."

 

There is nothing about the "church" in Revelation 12 .... it is all about the Lord, Israel, and Satan both before and during the coming tribulation period

[Unfailing Presence]

12 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 6:03 AM, Unfailing Presence said:

her seed " " seed of the woman " , is a direct reference to the Jews .

This " remnant "  being the " elect "  , yet another OT term for the Jews , that will come to Christ .

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

In my previous post I demonstrated the fact that we who are Christ's are Israel's seed, by virtue of being placed in Christ. It is in Christ that we are heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3:26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

Two separate things we are talking about  .

I was speaking of the physical  Davidic line spoken of by God , through which we become one in Christ Jesus

None of us could be heirs in Christ without the  physical seed being perpetuated . 

Thus the importance of Abraham & Sarai having a child :

              " And Abraham said , behold to me thou hast given no SEED and lo one born in my house is mine heir "   ( Genesis 15 : 3 )

Thus Satan's frantic brutal , desperate attempts to destroy the physical seed prior to & after  Christ's birth .

                                                      " And I will put enmity between thy seed and her seed , it shall bruise thy head  and thou shalt bruise his heel . "                                                                                                                                   ( Genesis 3 : 15 )    

[Steve Conley]

20 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"The idea of Revelation 12 being entirely about the Jew is predicated upon the unfounded belief that the church will be taken in a secret rapture (It is most certainly secret, because, the Bible says nothing of such a rapture."

 

There is nothing about the "church" in Revelation 12 .... it is all about the Lord, Israel, and Satan both before and during the coming tribulation period

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Daniel 11:36, it is easy to see that the immediate activities of Satan after being cast to the earth do indeed pertain to the Church. The 1260 days that the woman is hid and fed in the wilderness lets us know that Satan was cast out in the middle of the week. Jesus tells us that He will not return for His own until the great tribulation is over (Matt 24:29-31), and He told us that great tribulation begins in the middle of the week (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27). Since the church isn't raptured until right after the first resurrection according to Paul (1Thes 4:15-17), who also identified the resurrection Daniel spoke of following the great tribulation (Dan 12:1-2) as "they that are Christ's at his coming" (1Cor 15:23), it isn't rocket science to understand that those "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ", are indeed the Jew and Gentile believers in the body of Christ. John testifies to this very truth in Rev 20:4-6, where we can see that the tribulation saints are taken in the first resurrection. It is also evident from the numerous passages which let us know that we are not appointed unto wrath, that it is the period of God's wrath that we are kept from and that His wrath isn't poured out until His parousia.

1Th 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
...
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The persecuted Church rests when Jesus appears with His holy angels. It is at that time that He brings tribulation upon the Beast worshipers.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (The church is kept out of the period of God's wrath which follows the great tribulation and His appearing. The wrath on the day of the Lord is focused upon the earth dwellers who had persecuted the church and Israel. The day of the Lord cannot begin until the cosmic sign of Joel 2:31 appears following the great tribulation. Matt 24:29)

Your 55 years only strengthens your deception if you hold to a great escape (pre-trib rapture) that isn't coming. The Holy Scriptures present a very clear and plain to see end times scenario, when you don't filter everything through a faulty eschatological model. If you are not prepared for such persecution or have contributed to others not being prepared how will you and they fair in the great tribulation?

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

36 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Daniel 11:36, it is easy to see that the immediate activities of Satan after being cast to the earth do indeed pertain to the Church. The 1260 days that the woman is hid and fed in the wilderness lets us know that Satan was cast out in the middle of the week. Jesus tells us that He will not return for His own until the great tribulation is over (Matt 24:29-31), and He told us that great tribulation begins in the middle of the week (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27). Since the church isn't raptured until right after the first resurrection according to Paul (1Thes 4:15-17), who also identified the resurrection Daniel spoke of following the great tribulation (Dan 12:1-2) as "they that are Christ's at his coming" (1Cor 15:23), it isn't rocket science to understand that those "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ", are indeed the Jew and Gentile believers in the body of Christ. John testifies to this very truth in Rev 20:4-6, where we can see that the tribulation saints are taken in the first resurrection. It is also evident from the numerous passages which let us know that we are not appointed unto wrath, that it is the period of God's wrath that we are kept from and that His wrath isn't poured out until His parousia.

1Th 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
...
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The persecuted Church rests when Jesus appears with His holy angels. It is at that time that He brings tribulation upon the Beast worshipers.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (The church is kept out of the period of God's wrath which follows the great tribulation and His appearing. The wrath on the day of the Lord is focused upon the earth dwellers who had persecuted the church and Israel. The day of the Lord cannot begin until the cosmic sign of Joel 2:31 appears following the great tribulation. Matt 24:29)

Your 55 years only strengthens your deception if you hold to a great escape (pre-trib rapture) that isn't coming. The Holy Scriptures present a very clear and plain to see end times scenario, when you don't filter everything through a faulty eschatological model. If you are not prepared for such persecution or have contributed to others not being prepared how will you and they fair in the great tribulation?

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Its so simple to see .     By grace alone I just read the bible with love for hours daily every day .    What you are saying is so simple and true .

The thing is most have sat under men who twisted everything away to make their own theologies make sense .   

[Daniel 11:36]

"Your 55 years only strengthens your deception if you hold to a great escape (pre-trib rapture) that isn't coming"

 

Sorry, but the pre-tribulation changing of today's "church" is going to happen just as Paul tells

What you talk about are those who will repent and become believers during the 70th week of Daniel

Other than that most of your writing is true

However, do not teach against the Lord's intent to immortalize His church of today of both the dead and the living just  before His tribulation period begins

You have no scriptures to support this .... and there are many that do

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Last Daze]

14 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Your 55 years only strengthens your deception if you hold to a great escape (pre-trib rapture) that isn't coming. The Holy Scriptures present a very clear and plain to see end times scenario, when you don't filter everything through a faulty eschatological model. If you are not prepared for such persecution or have contributed to others not being prepared how will you and they fair in the great tribulation?

I've reflected on that question quite a bit.  It seems that there is a universal assumption (among non-pretribbers) that those who believe in a pretrib rapture will not be prepared for the time of great distress, should they be incorrect in their eschatology.  The conclusion I've come to is that preparedness is not a function of one's eschatology, but rather, their lifestyle.  Spiritual discernment and endurance come from a lifestyle of obedience to the word of God.

• “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.  And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock."  Matthew 7:24-25

While an accurate eschatology might help to avoid landmines, it's not an imperative.  Our focus should be primarily on the edification of believers, encouraging one another to love and good works.  There is merit in studying the things to come but it takes a back seat to worshiping God in spirit and truth, being doers of the word and not hearers only, regardless of one's "tribbal" association. 

Should they face the time of great tribulation, I expect that plenty of pretribbers will be prepared because of their lifestyle worship of God.

[Steve Conley]

6 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I've reflected on that question quite a bit.  It seems that there is a universal assumption (among non-pretribbers) that those who believe in a pretrib rapture will not be prepared for the time of great distress, should they be incorrect in their eschatology.  The conclusion I've come to is that preparedness is not a function of one's eschatology, but rather, their lifestyle.  Spiritual discernment and endurance come from a lifestyle of obedience to the word of God.

• “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.  And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock."  Matthew 7:24-25

While an accurate eschatology might help to avoid landmines, it's not an imperative.  Our focus should be primarily on the edification of believers, encouraging one another to love and good works.  There is merit in studying the things to come but it takes a back seat to worshiping God in spirit and truth, being doers of the word and not hearers only, regardless of one's "tribbal" association. 

Should they face the time of great tribulation, I expect that plenty of pretribbers will be prepared because of their lifestyle worship of God.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Last Daze, I agree much with what you have just said. However, there is a reason Christ gave us so much warning concerning this great persecution. There is a reason Peter warned the saints in His day of a fiery trial, which for them came in the form of Nero's persecution, and He warned following generations concerning the persecution that they would face. There is a reason Paul warned the Philippians saying, "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake". It is "Praemonitus, praemunitus", forewarned is forearmed. God wants us to be prepared. 

Why would any one be preparing for that which they are certain they will not experience?

Most of the "professing church" will not be prepared to die for Jesus when called upon to do so.

The coming persecution doesn't bring with it a great revival, it brings with it a great falling away. To fall away one must have been standing close to truth. These are "professing" Christians who fall away. These are those that are in the greater so called Christian community that will be offended at Christ when persecution comes for His name sake.

Mat 13:20  But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21  Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Mar 4:16  And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17  And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

We need to warn them!

"Be not deceived," Jesus said.

Luk 9:24  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 9:25  For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
Luk 9:26  For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Luk 12:8  Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luk 12:9  But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

2Ti 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

We will be hated and persecuted

Mat 10:16  Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:17  But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18  And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19  But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20  For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Mat 10:21  And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 10:23  But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Mat 10:24  The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Mat 10:25  It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
Mat 10:26  Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Mat 10:27  What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31  Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Mat 10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37  He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38  And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39  He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

No one who denies Jesus and takes the mark or worships the Beast shall be saved. All who believe the signs and lying wonders done by the False Prophet and worship the Beast are eternally damned.

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Spiritual discernment and endurance come from a lifestyle of obedience to the word of God.

To think that the church will not face great persecution is a clear demonstration of a lack of spiritual discernment and negligence on the part of spiritual leaders to warn and prepare the people of God for the great tribulation.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord

[Montana Marv]

The Church has been under persecution for the past 2000 years.  what's new. Some heavy, some light. All for the sake of the Gospel. Do you think this will change. We are to always be ready.

So what benefits will you receive if you go through this testing made for Unbelievers. More salvation. If one is not worthy now, then maybe you must go through this testing.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Steve Conley]

12 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Your 55 years only strengthens your deception if you hold to a great escape (pre-trib rapture) that isn't coming"

 

Sorry, but the pre-tribulation changing of today's "church" is going to happen just as Paul tells

What you talk about are those will repent and become believers during the 70th week of Daniel

Other than that most of your writing is true

However, do not teach against the Lord's intent to immortalize His church of today of both the dead and the living just  before His tribulation period begins

You have no scriptures to support this .... and there are many that do

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Daniel 11:36, everyone has an opinion. Some opinions are derived from the explicit statements of the objective revelation of God found in the Holy Scriptures. Others are based upon the perceived implications of those same Scriptures. Yet more are based on teaching that comes from outside the Holy Scriptures. The classic pre-trib system was established using a combination of all three of these.

Because the pre-trib model is a classic case of eisegesis, it depends upon the circular reasoning of wrested texts to find any support. This I call hermeneutical gymnastics. Since it is not the teaching of the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles it lacks harmony. This lack of textual harmony must be explained by a wrong understanding of what it means to rightly divide. Today many heretical teachings are justified by the cry "rightly dividing". Rightly dividing is used today much like the penknife of Jehudi. Those Scriptures that speak contrary to one's adopted religious system of belief are removed or relegated to some other group.

One of hundreds of examples of this is the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24 and 25). It has been relegated to the nation of Israel some how. Yet it was Jesus' answer to the apostles question "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" They wanted to know the events which would precede Christ's parousia (His return and continuing presence). They, whose questions He answers, are said to be the foundation of the Church, along with Christ and the prophets (Eph 2:20). They are representative of the Church concerning Christ's promise to come again and receive us unto Himself (John 14:3). They received the great commission which the Church today claims for itself (Matt 28:19-20). It is Matthew that records Jesus' words concerning building His church (Matt 16:18). It is Matthew that also records instruction concerning what may be called "church discipline" (Matt 18:17). Why so much for the church in a book that many say is for the Jew? They are wrong, and you are also if you believe such a thing.

Daniel 11:36, I have written a book's worth of comments answering others on this topic. My comments have included numerous texts which provide unassailable support for the careful statements that I have made concerning the timing of the catching up of the church. It is the great deception of the great escape (pre-trib rapture) that has no support.

Isa 8:20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Hallelujah