Tree of Knowledge, Garden of Eden

[Guest Butero]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

LOL, "placebo effect?"   You really need to look that phrase up.   A placebo is an ineffective treatment of a medical condition and is used to make the patient think they are getting a real drug, when in fact, it might be a sugar pill and that has no effect at all on their condition.   That has nothing to do  with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

And you are confusing the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil with the Tree of Life.  It was from the Tree of Life that a person could eat and live forever.

The tree was not in and of itself sinful or evil.  In fact had Adam and Eve passed the test, they likely would have been allowed to eat from that tree later, on. 

The Bible never blames the tree. The Bible blames Adam's disobedience for the Fall of man.  It was not fruit that caused the fall.  It's not saying that tree did nothing, but the tree was not direct or even proximal cause for the Fall. 

Adam's sin is what the Bible focuses on, not the tree.   The tree was no more good nor evil than anything else.

I knew exactly what I was saying.  It is almost like that movie, "The Secret."  Whatever you believe you will have, you get.  If you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the fruit does nothing, but because you believe you will surely die after you eat from it, you surely die.  You have a negative placebo effect.  Then with regard to the tree of life, there is nothing special about the fruit, but if you believe you will live forever if you eat from it, you live forever.  You have a positive placebo effect.  You are the first person I have ever come across that believes such nonsense about the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  It is ludicrous.  The fruit was poisonous to mankind.  It was not just the fact they disobeyed God, but the fruit was deadly.  

[Guest shiloh357]

27 minutes ago, Butero said:

I knew exactly what I was saying.  It is almost like that movie, "The Secret."  Whatever you believe you will have, you get.  If you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the fruit does nothing, but because you believe you will surely die after you eat from it, you surely die.  You have a negative placebo effect.  Then with regard to the tree of life, there is nothing special about the fruit, but if you believe you will live forever if you eat from it, you live forever.  You have a positive placebo effect.  You are the first person I have ever come across that believes such nonsense about the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  It is ludicrous.  The fruit was poisonous to mankind.  It was not just the fact they disobeyed God, but the fruit was deadly.  

They were not told they would live forever.  They were told that they would be like God knowing both good and evil.   There is nothing resembling a placebo effect.  God even said that they had become like Him knowing good and evil.  

The Bible doesn't say that there was anything wrong with the fruit.  The fruit did exactly what it was said to do.  God didn't say the tree brought their death. It was the sin of disobedience of Adam that brought death, not the tree.  

 

[Guest Butero]

54 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

They were not told they would live forever.  They were told that they would be like God knowing both good and evil.   There is nothing resembling a placebo effect.  God even said that they had become like Him knowing good and evil.  

The Bible doesn't say that there was anything wrong with the fruit.  The fruit did exactly what it was said to do.  God didn't say the tree brought their death. It was the sin of disobedience of Adam that brought death, not the tree.  

 

Genesis 2:9  "And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Genesis 2:16,17  "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:  for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  

When Eve was being tempted of the serpent, she said the following...

Genesis 3:2,3  "And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:  But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Genesis 3:22-24  "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:  and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, AND LIVE FOR EVER:  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."   

I have no idea how you come to some of the conclusions you do.  The scriptures speak for themselves, so I won't bother to add additional comments to try to explain them.  

[ytLiJC]

On 3/9/2018 at 7:12 PM, JohnR7 said:

Genesis 2: 16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." 

There is a lot I do not understand about this tree of knowledge. Why would God plant a tree with fruit that: "was a delight to the eyes".  Then forbid them to eat the fruit from this tree?

Genesis 3 6"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate"

Genesis 1:31  31"God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good."

IF everything God made was good then where did the evil come from?  Why did God plant this tree if it was not good for them? If day means day then why did they not die the day they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?  

Also I wonder about Ezekiel when he talks about the Cedar trees of Lebanon. 

Ezekiel 31 "9'I made it beautiful with the multitude of its branches, And all the trees of Eden, which were in the garden of God, were jealous of it.

If all of the tree of Eden were Jealous of the cedar in Lebanon, does that mean Lebanon was better than Eden back in it's days of purity?  Also how can a tree be "Jealous", do they have feeling?  Could a tree talk like a snake could talk back in the days of Eden? 

 

the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is not a "tree" of the "Garden", it is a "tree" beyond the "garden of Eden"

Genesis 2:16-17 (CSB) "the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.”",

Genesis 3:2-3 (CSB) "The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden. But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, ‘You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.’”"

"in the middle of" is somewhat an imperfect translation - the more correct translation is "beyond"

we will be rash if we say God created something bad - let's say "eating" from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is not problematic/troublesome for God, because He has the capacity of system Administrator and Provider of life, but it is problematic/troublesome for humans if at least some of them "eat" from it, because their capacity is infinitely small compared to God's - according to the universal constant laws there can be only one (true) God (it is not so easy to explain why - nevertheless you can read Matthew 6:24 where the Lord presents one of the explanations for that, namely the fact that it is not possible for a person to serve two or more masters at the same time without disobeying any of them)

as for how or why the forbidden "tree" seemed good to the woman, she fell under the influence of the wicked one and he made her see the forbidden "tree" as something good for humans

in Ezekiel 31 God talks not about the elementary "trees" of the "garden of eden" but about certain types of characters - as living in the "Garden" and as living out of it - for example, one wise man in God can be a truly glorious "singer" in "Heaven", but out of "Heaven" the same person may be a great false prophet capable of misleading many people...

Blessings

[Alex2165]

Hi John.

 

You’re asked: “why did GOD plant this tree if it was no good for them.”

 

I think, because we are made in the Intellectual Image of GOD, and the Intellect of GOD knows Good and Evil, and so the angels He had created, so in order to be full and complete image of GOD the human being have to know these two entities just like the GOD knows them and His angels.

 

GOD of course knew ahead of time that humans will eat of this Tree and will possess full and complete Image of Himself in this matter.

 

Why when GOD does not implant in humans the Good and Evil from the very beginning of creation Adam and Eve? I think because it would look that GOD has given no choice to human beings to be innocent or evil , and if so, why when He punishes them?

 

But when Adam and Eve did it for themselves and destroyed their complete innocence, then they not only disobeyed the Lord without knowing that the thing they deed is sinful, but also at the same time realized their sin against GOD only after eating the fruit, and the possession of Good and Evil gave to their conscience extra qualities that they lack before, and they became full Intellectual Image of their Creator as it was planned.

 

Before, their own innocence would not tell them what is good and bad, and they could do anything without even realizing what they are doing, just like little children. But with the knowledge of Good and Evil they know what they are doing, and for them would be no excuses for their behavior.

 

Possessing the knowledge of GOOD and Evil is not a sin, because GOD Himself possessing it and His angels, but the way this knowledge has been obtained and used, indeed cases sin.

 

Concerning the trees of Lebanon and the trees of the Garden of Eden, I assume that because the House of the Lord was built from the trees of Lebanon, they are considered much greater than the trees of Eden.

 

Trees of Eden provided food for first two human beings and this is very much it, behind this they did not serve any particular purpose worthy to be great trees.

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

On 5/2/2018 at 2:15 PM, Alex2165 said:

Hi John.

 

 

You’re asked: “why did GOD plant this tree if it was no good for them.”

 

 

I think, because we are made in the Intellectual Image of GOD, and the Intellect of GOD knows Good and Evil, and so the angels He had created, so in order to be full and complete image of GOD the human being have to know these two entities just like the GOD knows them and His angels.

 

 

GOD of course knew ahead of time that humans will eat of this Tree and will possess full and complete Image of Himself in this matter.

 

 

Why when GOD does not implant in humans the Good and Evil from the very beginning of creation Adam and Eve? I think because it would look that GOD has given no choice to human beings to be innocent or evil , and if so, why when He punishes them?

 

 

But when Adam and Eve did it for themselves and destroyed their complete innocence, then they not only disobeyed the Lord without knowing that the thing they deed is sinful, but also at the same time realized their sin against GOD only after eating the fruit, and the possession of Good and Evil gave to their conscience extra qualities that they lack before, and they became full Intellectual Image of their Creator as it was planned.

 

 

Before, their own innocence would not tell them what is good and bad, and they could do anything without even realizing what they are doing, just like little children. But with the knowledge of Good and Evil they know what they are doing, and for them would be no excuses for their behavior.

 

 

Possessing the knowledge of GOOD and Evil is not a sin, because GOD Himself possessing it and His angels, but the way this knowledge has been obtained and used, indeed cases sin.

 

I like the way you describe and the reasons you use to support your thoughts. 

From my understanding this tree represented the Serpent and I use this word because thats the one we find in the Scripture. 

As you highlited he was the first one who knew good and evil from experience, he was the first one to have fallen from Heaven, and he had the Fallen Spirit in him, not the life of God, because he also must have had the life of God at the time of his creation, if God created him and the Angels he must have given them of his life, 

What the Creator had that what he gave him as in the same situation with Adam. 

Eve came from Adam, before the fall, and Adam gave Eve what he had the same life he got from God. 

In the case of Cain we know that he sin when he kill his brother. 

We understand that the wages of his sin was alleniation from God alltogether, also we know that Cain was conceived after the fall, and Adam gave him what he had , what he got from the Serpent, spiritual death.

We see what was the result of sin in Cain.

But we do not see the same result in the situation of Adam and Eve, that is telling us the same thing apostle Paul said:

That sin enter the world through Adam's disobedience, not that Adam sin, but that Adam disobey the command of God. Because God continue to fellowship with both Adam and Eve. 

As in the situation of Cain he seperated himself from the sinner, Cain. 

The samething that happened with King Saul, after he sin. 

The first one to sin in the world was Cain.  

Adam and Eve disobey God and got the wage of their disobedience, spiritual death, but they did not polute them selves, and they continued to have the fellowship of God.

Their other Son Seth, also had the fellowship of God and he did not pollute him self with sin.

Till we get to Enoch, and then to Noah who was not polluted with sin and his children. (I do not what to say about his children, they must also be clean), in the Scripture only Noah was referred as a righteous person, perhaps because he was the Patriarch, and by default his children also were righteous, clean. 

After the flood we see as soon as one of Noah sons polluted himself , sining against his father how he was deal from God......

On 5/2/2018 at 2:15 PM, Alex2165 said:

 

Concerning the trees of Lebanon and the trees of the Garden of Eden, I assume that because the House of the Lord was built from the trees of Lebanon, they are considered much greater than the trees of Eden.

Very often the Lord did many things and had a hidden meaning to what he said which was not possible for the people to correctly interpret what the Lord had in his mind and the reason he said it.

The Lord knew of future events, how at the time of Christ he will have children from the Gentiles, and he will put his Spirit in them and will be his Temple, the Chedars of Lebanon. 

As opposed to the children of Eden, the Jews, who were his children first and the only ones, and like Adam and Eve, also they were cast out because they reject JESUS CHRIST, I mean as a nation.  

 

On 5/2/2018 at 2:15 PM, Alex2165 said:

 

Trees of Eden provided food for first two human beings and this is very much it, behind this they did not serve any particular purpose worthy to be great trees.