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KiwiChristian

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Greetings again shiloh357,

7 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Yes, but Jesus pre-existed His physical birth.   God is the Father, but not paternally.   The incarnation is not the beginning of Jesus' existence.

I do not accept the preexistence of Jesus. I do not accept the concept of the incarnation as taught in the Churches. I believe that Jesus’ life commenced at his conception and birth. As well as Luke 1:30-35 the other two records concerning the birth of Jesus and his origin must be considered.

Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Matthew 1:20-21 speaks of conception being of the Holy Spirit, and John 1:14 speaks of the only begotten. Both of these agree with Luke 1:35 which teaches that God the Father is the paternal father of Jesus while Mary is his mother. I find no hint in any of these that God the Son shrunk from being a Deity  and thus abandoning most aspects of His Deity to dwell in the womb of Mary for 9 months and then to be born a babe. At what age did he resume His Deity?

7 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 I am not ignoring anything.   Jesus developed as an ordinary man.   Jesus was the Son of God before the resurrection.  Sorry, but Jesus was the Word and is still the Living Word of God.   He was the Word made flesh.  You really need more study on the interplay between the humanity and deity of Jesus.   We call that the hypostatic union.

I do not find the term hypostatic union in the Bible, neither can I find where it is taught. Take one concept. Jesus was limited in knowledge, but God knows all things. Did Jesus have two minds, and were these not able to communicate with each other and share information?

Kind regards Trevor

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15 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

In the case of Jesus, the relationship of Son to Father is not paternal. 

The book of John is very careful to note the uniqueness of Jesus' sonship.   It is a matter of rank, not paternal relationship.    Furthermore, in Hebrew thought, which permeates the New Testament, "Son of"  was a comparative phrase that denotes the identical character of two things.   For example, when Jesus called James and John "sons of thunder,"  he was comparing their tempers with that of brashness of thunder.   Jesus referred to the Pharisees of as "sons of hell."  Those are similar in nature to the way "Son of God" is used in reference to Jesus.  Not the exact same, but similar.

So, the term in reference to Jesus in the book of John denotes that Jesus shares the same unique divine nature as the Father.  And that is why Jesus was accused of blasphemy.  If "Son of God" didn't refer to Jesus as God, they would not have reason to accuse Him and attempt to stone Him for blasphemy.

The Trinitarian concept is line with the Bible.

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.  Whereas we receive the Spirit of adoption when we are born of the Spirit.  "Sons of hell" and being "of their father the devil" denoted what spirit they were of in quite a literal way.  Likewise when a person is born of the HOLY Spirit, it denotes what spirit we are of in a literal way.  It denotes who/what spirit is ruling in our vessel/temple. 

But flesh/carnal nature is contrary to the Spirit.....and even though Christ is ruling in us, and all things put under His feet, we do not yet SEE everything put under His feet....so we have the good fight of faith to battle out and being perfected through sufferings like the captain of our faith.  Death and fear of it is the last enemy to be defeated when love is perfected.

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8 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again shiloh357,

I do not accept the preexistence of Jesus. I do not accept the concept of the incarnation as taught in the Churches. I believe that Jesus’ life commenced at his conception and birth. As well as Luke 1:30-35 the other two records concerning the birth of Jesus and his origin must be considered.

Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Matthew 1:20-21 speaks of conception being of the Holy Spirit, and John 1:14 speaks of the only begotten. Both of these agree with Luke 1:35 which teaches that God the Father is the paternal father of Jesus while Mary is his mother. I find no hint in any of these that God the Son shrunk from being a Deity  and thus abandoning most aspects of His Deity to dwell in the womb of Mary for 9 months and then to be born a babe. At what age did he resume His Deity?

I do not find the term hypostatic union in the Bible, neither can I find where it is taught. Take one concept. Jesus was limited in knowledge, but God knows all things. Did Jesus have two minds, and were these not able to communicate with each other and share information?

Kind regards Trevor

TrevorL

A question for you..

Who raised Jesus from the dead? 

 

PS: Oh cool this is my 2000th post :D

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18 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.  Whereas we receive the Spirit of adoption when we are born of the Spirit.  "Sons of hell" and being "of their father the devil" denoted what spirit they were of in quite a literal way.  Likewise when a person is born of the HOLY Spirit, it denotes what spirit we are of in a literal way.  It denotes who/what spirit is ruling in our vessel/temple. 

But flesh/carnal nature is contrary to the Spirit.....and even though Christ is ruling in us, and all things put under His feet, we do not yet SEE everything put under His feet....so we have the good fight of faith to battle out and being perfected through sufferings like the captain of our faith.  Death and fear of it is the last enemy to be defeated when love is perfected.

Are you saying that Jesus is not God?  I really don't see how what you said directly addresses my post.

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On 3/11/2018 at 6:51 PM, KiwiChristian said:

Than you for your reply, trevor. And for being polite.

 

With all due respect, you are wrong.

 

John 10:30-36 shows that the jews knew full well what Jesus was claiming.

Timothy cried out "My Lord and my God"

 

Yes, other people ARE referred to as "god" meaning judges, but never "God" as in deity.

Amen!  Christ is the ONLY begotten of the Father, and we rest are adopted sons.  In the bible, sons of God and gods are referring to angels/ministering spirits........and how it is applied to us is as Jesus said, we shall be like the angels.....so in that sense we will be gods/sons of God.....and yes, judging and ruling and reigning with Christ in the world to come.  But in case any are of the mistaken impression that believers will be Christs or Gods, I pray they will just let this wash over them:

Isaiah 43:10-11

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

Isaiah 40:25

To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isa 46:5

To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

 

 

 

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On 3/12/2018 at 6:08 AM, Justin Adams said:

This is correct and why we have the law and the prophets. Not so we can work our way to heaven and salvation, but to remind us of our sinful natures and the need for continual repentance. If you look at Leviticus, you will get a refresher course on what is important to the Lord (Yahweh). Then off to the confessional we go. Do not confuse Salvation with perfection as so many Christians do.

Remember the old bumper sticker: I'M NOT PERFECT, JUST SAVED!

Micah says we should do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with our God.

Amen.......He is God, we are not......and even though all things have been put under Christ's feet, we mostly do not yet see it, though potentially it could be for some.  Getting a bit philosophical with this, but see whether it agrees with the word.......each one seems to have different battles to fight, some more difficult, some less so, etc, and the offering is accepted not based on what a person doesn't have, but on what they do have.....the Lord judging righteous judgment, not by what appears outwardly.  I have a hunch that we will be surprised on judgment day how the Lord judges...not the way that 'we' tend to think, but based on what only He knows about a person's life and walk....the last will be first and the first will be last, the least honourable receiving more honour, etc.....He just seems to be the opposite of how we would think. 

The important thing I believe, is to be in the battle that happens to be appointed to us; to be growing; to be on the narrow path of not my will, but Thine be done, and following Jesus obediently as He leads/directs our walk.  It's humbling in itself to realize that we don't even have any control over the measure we first receive, just so long as what measure of faith we were given, little or great, 1 talent or 10, we are 'investing' it for His glory.  It's amazing to me, about the Philadelphia church, the Lord says of it "you have little strength...yet you have not denied my name"....that is one of only two of the churches that the Lord seemed to have found no major fault with....what seemed to have pleased the Lord about that church was simply that they had kept the word of His patience, to endure.  Who can really fathom Him....so amen walk humbly with our God, humble ourselves under His mighty hand, and what else can we do really.  He is the Husbandman, the Vinedresser, and we are just vessels for His fruit to grow as He cultivates it and prunes away as He pleases.  Our part seems to be a matter of just not shying  away from those pruning shears, just stay still and know that He is God, and determine as Job did, that though He slay me yet will I trust Him.

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10 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again shiloh357,

I do not accept the preexistence of Jesus. I do not accept the concept of the incarnation as taught in the Churches. I believe that Jesus’ life commenced at his conception and birth. As well as Luke 1:30-35 the other two records concerning the birth of Jesus and his origin must be considered.

Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Matthew 1:20-21 speaks of conception being of the Holy Spirit, and John 1:14 speaks of the only begotten. Both of these agree with Luke 1:35 which teaches that God the Father is the paternal father of Jesus while Mary is his mother. I find no hint in any of these that God the Son shrunk from being a Deity  and thus abandoning most aspects of His Deity to dwell in the womb of Mary for 9 months and then to be born a babe. At what age did he resume His Deity?

I do not find the term hypostatic union in the Bible, neither can I find where it is taught. Take one concept. Jesus was limited in knowledge, but God knows all things. Did Jesus have two minds, and were these not able to communicate with each other and share information?

Kind regards Trevor

Who can really understand these things........Jesus is the Word made flesh...and the apostles beheld His glory.  He is the only begotten of the Father, but still somehow the Lord is one.  We just need to believe it and not try to slice it and dice it too finely; don't go beyond what is written or we will miss the mark.

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1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

Are you saying that Jesus is not God?  I really don't see how what you said directly addresses my post.

Not at all......Jesus IS God.....I was just trying to discuss more about His sonship, and ours.......one thought led to another, as sometimes happens.

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The 'Messenger' or 'MAN' as mentioned many times in the OT is Yeshua. Israeli theology is very careful to keep God as ONE, yet can accept the 'Angel' as being co-equal with Him (Yahweh). The executive of The Most High is Yeshua - He is recounted in physical form many times.

The Son has been the Son forever. He is seen on the Throne in Ezekiel, in the Furnace with Daniel, in the Pillar of Fire and the Cloud that escorted the Israelites out of Egypt. There are many interesting accounts of Yeshua as, 'One like unto the Son of Man' in the OT. On Sinai whose finger wrote on tablets of stone?

Yeshua means Yahweh saves or 'is Salvation'. It is our Lord as the demons in the Gadarenes account refer to Him as 'Son of The Most High God'. There is no greater title and He is Yeshua. From everlasting to everlasting.

 

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1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

The 'Messenger' or 'MAN' as mentioned many times in the OT is Yeshua. Israeli theology is very careful to keep God as ONE, yet can accept the 'Angel' as being co-equal with Him (Yahweh). The executive of The Most High is Yeshua - He is recounted in physical form many times.

The Son has been the Son forever. He is seen on the Throne in Ezekiel, in the Furnace with Daniel, in the Pillar of Fire and the Cloud that escorted the Israelites out of Egypt. There are many interesting accounts of Yeshua as, 'One like unto the Son of Man' in the OT. On Sinai whose finger wrote on tablets of stone?

Yeshua means Yahweh saves or 'is Salvation'. It is our Lord as the demons in the Gadarenes account refer to Him as 'Son of The Most High God'. There is no greater title and He is Yeshua. From everlasting to everlasting.

 

Amen.......He exists in eternity, not bound by time.....and so He was able to appear many times in His body in the past...."His goings forth have been from of old".....even though His body was prepared, begotten, for Him at a point in time from earth's perspective. 

 He is one and the same....Father, Son and Holy Spirit.......as we see from this verse:

 Isa 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

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