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Guest shiloh357
Just now, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Shiloh357 and patrickjane,

 

What you say could be correct if the Trinity was true. But I suggest that the Trinity is not taught in the Bible. 

It is demonstrated in the Bible.  The concept is present and operational in Scripture.

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I was introduced to the concept that there is one God the Father and that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God when I was an infant, and we continue to teach our infants. I was introduced to an exposition of the Yahweh Name and understanding of OT use of Elohim when I was 19 at a YPs study weekend. My understanding of all of this has expanded over the years and I now have a better understanding of God the Father’s revelation of Himself and his character and purpose as it is centred in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

You were taught wrong.

 

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I appreciate your thorough treatment of Philippians 2. I suggest that it is a comparison with Adam. Note the RV mg “Gr. A thing to be grasped”. Jesus was born the Son of God, the greatest prince ever born, but he did not use this status and privilege in a proud way, but humbled himself as a servant, and was obedient unto death.

 

No comparison with Adam is made in the text.    "A thing to be grasped"  means when Jesus came to earth, His prerogatives as God were not something He held on to for the time He was on earth.   Jesus never used His equality with God for his own benefit.   He let go, temporarily, of those prerogatives for the duration of His earthly ministry, but retained them when He ascended back into Heaven.   Yes, Jesus was the Son of God, but that means that He was God.

 

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That glory was in prospect before the creation. Notice the past tense of Psalm 8:5. It speaks as if it was an accomplished fact.

 

Jesus said that He shared the same glory that the Father had before the world began.  I think it is best to trust what Jesus said rather than misusing Scripture to get around the parts of the Bible that don't fit your theology.

 

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Despite your claim to Hebrew, I would like to see your exposition of the plural “us” in Genesis 1:26-27 and the introduction and use of Elohim in Genesis 1-3.

 

Elohim is what we refer to as a plural of majesty in divine terms. It is an intensive plural that is not numerical when applied to God.  So in reference to the God of the Bible, "Elohim" is not "Gods."    It is same kind of thing when you want to say in Hebrew that there is blood on the floor.  "Blood" in Hebrew is "dahm."  If I want to say that there is a lot of blood on the floor, I use the majestic or intensive plural, "dahmim."  

 

It is important to note that Jesus is the Creator God of Genesis 1:1.  This is confirmed by John 1:-3 Col. 1:15-18 and Heb. 1:1-2.   The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all involved in the creation event.  But Jesus is the Creator.  Jesus as the Word of God, spoke the universe into existence.   So the word "us" ( נַעֲשֶׂה) is totally appropriate.

 

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I suggest that this is Trinitarian double talk to reject the Biblical teaching that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

 

No, it just reflects a better, more studied and unassailable fact than you can face up to.   Calling it "doubletalk"  is just a pathetic deflection from what you can't actually refute.   The fact that you have to resort to such weak responses, only shows the accuracy of what I said.

 

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How do you explain the same language “one” used in John 17 for the disciples?

 When Jesus said that He and the Father are one, the word for "one" is the Greek word "en" and refers to oneness in essence and nature.   The word for "one" when applied to the disciples is the word "eis" and it refers to oneness or unity in purpose.  Completely different word. 

 

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I view the Word in John 1:1-3 the same as Wisdom in Proverbs 8. It is speaking of how the character of God, the fullness of grace and truth came to be revealed in God’s begotten Son, the word made flesh.

 That is not what the Bible says.   The Bible John 1:1-3 says, in the Greek,  that the Word was a person that enjoyed face to face, intimate fellowship with the God the Father.  That precludes the Word from being "wisdom."   

 

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Greetings again Shiloh357,

 

You have mainly asserted the Trinity and denied my belief that there is one God the Father and Jesus is the Son of God. I will briefly comment on the following:

 

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Elohim is what we refer to as a plural of majesty in divine terms. It is an intensive plural that is not numerical when applied to God.  So in reference to the God of the Bible, "Elohim" is not "Gods."

I certainly agree that Elohim is not "Gods" in the English sense of the word. I believe that Elohim can be defined as the One God who works through many agents, such as the Angels, the Judges and the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that in Genesis 1:26 God the Father is inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man. Psalm 8:5 supports this view, as this is David’s summary of Genesis 1:26-27. Elohim in Psalm 8:5 is translated Angels.

 

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

When Jesus said that He and the Father are one, the word for "one" is the Greek word "en" and refers to oneness in essence and nature.   The word for "one" when applied to the disciples is the word "eis" and it refers to oneness or unity in purpose.  Completely different word.

Could you please check your Greek references as I found the occurrence in John 10:30 and the two occurrences in John 17:11 to be all the same.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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Guest shiloh357
2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

 

You have mainly asserted the Trinity and denied my belief that there is one God the Father and Jesus is the Son of God. I will briefly comment on the following:

 

No, I have asserted that the Trinity is not "three Gods."  It is three persons, but one God and that Jesus IS the Son of God.   I have not denied the Sonship  of Jesus.   I simply understand it better than you do. 

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I certainly agree that Elohim is not "Gods" in the English sense of the word. I believe that Elohim can be defined as the One God who works through many agents, such as the Angels, the Judges and the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that in Genesis 1:26 God the Father is inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man. Psalm 8:5 supports this view, as this is David’s summary of Genesis 1:26-27. Elohim in Psalm 8:5 is translated Angels.

But you have not defined "Elohim" correctly, whereas I have.

 

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Could you please check your Greek references as I found the occurrence in John 10:30 and the two occurrences in John 17:11 to be all the same.

That' because you didn't look at the Greek.   What I said was true.  It's up to you to actually refute it, or not.

 

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So not only do the scriptures clearly show that the Word is God and the Word is Jesus Christ, but we see that Jesus Christ made the world. We also have Colossians chapter one saying the same thing, that all things are  created by Jesus Christ and by Him all things consist. There are many other scriptures for this as well. as somebody mentioned already, Jesus was worshiped and forgave sin. Who can forgive sin but God?
John 1:1-32 KJV - 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.

25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
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23 hours ago, patrick jane said:

I marvel at those that can't comprehend John 1:1-3 KJV - and John 1:14 KJV - The first time I read that I knew Jesus is God. Jesus Christ created all things. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was WITH God. The Word WAS God. The same was in the beginning with God. The Word (who is God) became flesh and dwelt among us. Pretty simple even for a 6 year old. That's not even mention the numerous other scriptures throughout the entire Bible.

Except you don't understand that verse. The other 385 verses that use that word "word" say so. If it was Jesus being referred to then those other verses wouldn't make sense.

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Greetings again Shiloh357,

 

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

But you have not defined "Elohim" correctly, whereas I have.

Your definition was the following:

15 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Elohim is what we refer to as a plural of majesty in divine terms. It is an intensive plural that is not numerical when applied to God.  So in reference to the God of the Bible, "Elohim" is not "Gods."    It is same kind of thing when you want to say in Hebrew that there is blood on the floor.  "Blood" in Hebrew is "dahm."  If I want to say that there is a lot of blood on the floor, I use the majestic or intensive plural, "dahmim."  

You say: “Elohim is what we refer to as a plural of majesty in divine terms.” This seems obscure to me.

 

If I was to define Elohim, I would firstly note that part of the word has “El” and this is another title for God representing strength or power, indicating that God the Father is the source of power or strength. Then there is some suggestion that Elohim is the plural of Eloah, and this could be translated as the Strong or Powerful one. Thus as far as the derivation of the word and its meaning, then Elohim could be translated “Mighty Ones”. The question then is how is this word Elohim used? We find it is used for God Himself, but often also includes the Angels. Often Elohim is used with a singular verb such as in Genesis 1:1. One explanation of this is the same as your suggestion, but my previous definition also fits. I believe that it is the One God, the Father who works through numerous representatives, such as Angels, Judges and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. I suggest that Elohim in Genesis 17:22 and Exodus 3:6 is not God the Father, nor the second person of the Trinity, but an Angel representing God.

 

You say: “It is an intensive plural that is not numerical when applied to God.  So in reference to the God of the Bible, "Elohim" is not "Gods." You seem to make up the rule to suit your understanding. Yes there are instances of intensive plural in Hebrew, but I believe that there is a plurality in the word Elohim, and that plurality includes God the Father’s representatives, the Angels, Judges and the Lord Jesus Christ, depending on the context. Psalm 8:5 is one example where the best translation of Elohim is Angels. Also Psalm 8:5 is a summary of Genesis 1:26-27 explaining who are the “Us” and “Our” of Genesis 1:26.

 

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

That' because you didn't look at the Greek.   What I said was true.  It's up to you to actually refute it, or not.

I initially checked my interlinear NASB95 on Logos 7 and now after your response I have checked the interlinear on Bible Hub. Both these sources show John 10:30 and John 17:11 are the same. Please check your Greek references again. The NASB95 interlinear had two different Greek texts, and these differed from each other, but John 10:30 and John 17:11 were the same when each text was compared to the same text. Did you use two different texts or a text that differs from my references?

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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15 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, it just reflects a better, more studied and unassailable fact than you can face up to.   Calling it "doubletalk"  is just a pathetic deflection from what you can't actually refute.   The fact that you have to resort to such weak responses, only shows the accuracy of what I said

You talk like you know it all but it's obvious you don't. If you actually studied scripture you would see how much is added to make you believe a trinity. The devil loves you believing a trinity because it's his idea, long before the new testament was written. The bible doesn't prove a trinity, it's just been added in by translators who believed it, not because it's what's being said.

I studied out Isaiah 9:6 today which you love to quote, and you know 17 words are added out of 39 words total in the verse. And you know what I found??

The word God (Jehovah) isn't even in the verse. It's been added by translators. The word is actually 410 which means strength or mighty. 

You say you know Hebrew yet you quote that verse without even looking it up.

Well got news for you trinity believers, I've now found nearly 400 verses that discredit a trinity belief or Jesus being God. 

God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. All apostles say it and believe it. The trinity was introduced and people have just accepted this lie.

The anti christ is the only one who claims to be God.

1 Corinthians 15:28 Says Jesus is subordinate to God the Father. This is contrary to a trinity belief in which they are all equal in position character personality.

John 16:13 Says the holy spirit doesn't speak on his own but only that which he hears, that will he speak. If they are all equal then none of them can speak unless the other speaks. So no one can speak because they can't speak of their own.

Numbers 23:19 Says God is not a man (human flesh and blood) that He should lie nor the son of man (human flesh and blood).......... Yet Jesus was flesh and blood, and still has flesh now.

Genesis 2:7 Man became a living soul, that is flesh and spirit became United in the soul, they became 1. Jesus cannot be God and man because of this verse. The flesh and spirit are united as 1 being.

 

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Guest shiloh357
6 hours ago, DJ7 said:

You talk like you know it all but it's obvious you don't.

No, I don't know it all.  But I know more and I know it better than you do.  I am far more skilled at reading Scripture than you are, or Trevor is.

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If you actually studied scripture you would see how much is added to make you believe a trinity. The devil loves you believing a trinity because it's his idea, long before the new testament was written. The bible doesn't prove a trinity, it's just been added in by translators who believed it, not because it's what's being said.

Sorry, but none of that is true.  The Trinity was not added by translators because the word "Trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible.   I don't know where you get your information from, but you are being lied to.

 

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I studied out Isaiah 9:6 today which you love to quote, and you know 17 words are added out of 39 words total in the verse. And you know what I found??

The word God (Jehovah) isn't even in the verse. It's been added by translators. The word is actually 410 which means strength or mighty. You say you know Hebrew yet you quote that verse without even looking it up.

 

 It is true that the word Jehovah doesn't appear in the verse.  But it is not true that was added by any translators.  That's because it doesn't appear at all and it never has had the word "Jehovah" in it.   It has not been added by translators.  

You don't know what you're talking about.  The reference to God is the Hebrew word "El" and not "Jehovah" and it is paired with the word "gibbor"  and it means "mighty God."   Furthermore, "El" was not added by translators and reason we know that, is that have a copy of the whole book of Isaiah from the Dead Sea Scrolls in Hebrew dating back to nearly 300 BC and it is identical to the Hebrew Masoretic used today.   So no, it wasn't added by anyone.  

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Well got news for you trinity believers, I've now found nearly 400 verses that discredit a trinity belief or Jesus being God. 

No, LOL.   You have no news for us and you have not found 400 verses that discredit either the Trinity or the deity of Jesus.   Time to start telling the truth and being more honest. So far, you have found nothing.

 

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1 Corinthians 15:28 Says Jesus is subordinate to God the Father. This is contrary to a trinity belief in which they are all equal in position character personality.

Jesus is subordinate to God the Father in rank and order, but they are co-equal and co-eternal.  Jesus' subordination is not a reference to His essential being and nature.  In essential nature Jesus is God.

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John 16:13 Says the holy spirit doesn't speak on his own but only that which he hears, that will he speak. If they are all equal then none of them can speak unless the other speaks. So no one can speak because they can't speak of their own.

No, that is not true.  The Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and Son.  The Holy Spirit points people to Jesus and Jesus points us to the Father.   But they are all three equal persons in the Trinity.   Subordination in role or rank does not make one less God than the other.   

A Private in the Army is subordinate in rank to a Sergeant.   That doesn't mean the Private is less human than the Sergeant.   That is why your claim about subordination is so ridiculous.  It doesn't work when applied to other contexts.   

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Numbers 23:19 Says God is not a man (human flesh and blood) that He should lie nor the son of man (human flesh and blood).......... Yet Jesus was flesh and blood, and still has flesh now.

The point that God is making is that He is not share the flawed character of man, in that unlike men, God does not lie.   He is making a reference to His holy, sinless character and that He is always faithful to His word and never lies.   That God is not a man that He should lie doesn't contradict the incarnation of Jesus.   God can take on humanity because He is God and that is not impossible for Him to do. 

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Genesis 2:7 Man became a living soul, that is flesh and spirit became United in the soul, they became 1. Jesus cannot be God and man because of this verse. The flesh and spirit are united as 1 being.

That makes no sense.  That man became a living soul doesn't keep Jesus from being God and man.   

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2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Jesus is subordinate to God the Father in rank and order, but they are co-equal and co-eternal.  Jesus' subordination is not a reference to His essential being and nature.  In essential nature Jesus is God

Can you explain how when Jesus was in Mary's womb as a few tiny cells how was he co-equal with the Father and how it can be that God never changes yet Jesus changed from God in the beginning to being an embryo in Mary's womb. How is this never changing, being the same yesterday today and forever as the bible says?

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2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

That makes no sense.  That man became a living soul doesn't keep Jesus from being God and man.   

Well it does make sense because God cannot take on sin and since Jesus spirit is one with his flesh both spirit and body took on the sins of mankind.

God cannot look upon sin, let alone take upon the sins of mankind. It is against God's perfect nature to take on sin. 

That is who God is. He cannot change, He cannot be something else, He cannot break His word, He cannot lower Himself lower than angels. 

God never changes, never ever. 

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