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The Measuring of the Temple


Last Daze

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15 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I cannot be dogmatic on such things as this. The primary issue is that there is not one iota of evidence that people do repent of receiving the mark.

If you look at the progression of the plagues, you'll notice that the first mention of "no repentance" happens long after they begin.

  • Why did it take so long to mention that people don't repent?
  • Why is it even mentioned at all that people didn't repent?  Why are we even informed of that development unless it was significant in some regard?
  • If people are incapable of repenting then why would God torture them like that?  Why not just kill them and be done with it?

 

16 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Also, it should once again be mentioned that those who follow after the man of sin/beast are doing so after receiving a delusion from God Himself.

Those who rejected the love of the truth are the ones under the strong delusion from God.  There will also be ill-prepared believers who are deceived by the signs and wonders of the false prophet who follow after him.  The elect will not be deceived.  The elect does not necessarily refer to all believers.  There's a reason that Jesus repeatedly exhorted us to be on the alert and stay awake.

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5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Why did it take so long to mention that people don't repent?

I have no idea, but it isn't delineated specifically so any postulation is conjectural.

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Why is it even mentioned at all that people didn't repent?

The only answer I can give to this is that it's because they didn't repent. I cannot speak to why God chooses to reveal what He chooses to reveal to us.

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Why are we even informed of that development unless it was significant in some regard?

It's certainly significant (if for no other reason than God revealed it), but the scripture does not indicate an explicit reason for its significance.

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

If people are incapable of repenting then why would God torture them like that?  Why not just kill them and be done with it?

This is not a question that I can answer, but I do know that those who take the mark of the beast will not repent and turn to Christ, because the bible explicitly states that they won't. Again, I cannot give God's reasoning for doing anything. His ways are not our ways. 

 

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7 hours ago, Diaste said:

If indeed people who have chosen to accept the mark and worship the beast do desist and repent they will be saved, but they WILL NOT inherit the kingdom nor rule and reign with Christ.

They will only be saved from being destroyed in the wrath of God and have the sentence of eternal punishment stayed till the 2nd resurrection, and final judgment. They will live on earth as the nations that populate the land with the destiny of being deceived once again by Satan at the end of the 1000 years. They will neither be immortal, powerful nor enlightened; just regular folks.

I cannot find scriptural evidence to support this assertion. It may be true, but if it is, the scripture is 100 percent silent on it. In other words, I don't believe repentance is necessary on their part to enter the 1000 years alive if they are to do so.

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

The hour of his judgement is come...By this point, at the moment of judgement, the whole world is sporting the mark except for the elect; now why would an angel call for repentance at this point if salvation, from their destruction by wrath, was off the table?

I would have to disagree with this insofar as I don't think it can be proven that the mark has even been given out yet. 

Firstly, it seems to me that the mark doesn't go out until the beast demands worship and the only point in time in which the scripture shows that he demands worship is from the point of the abomination forward.

Rev 13:14  And he deceives those who dwell on the earth—by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 
Rev 13:15  He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed
Rev 13:16  He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 
Rev 13:17  and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 

This would indicate that the messages of the three angels in Revelation 14 may be a final set of messages for the earth prior to the going out of the mark, from which there is no turning back from the perspective of salvation. I think the context of Revelation 14 indicates this in what could be called a subtle manner (though I don't view it as all that subtle). Starting with the third angel, which we have covered. I'll post the verses for context though.

Rev 14:9  Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 
Rev 14:10  he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 

This is a warning and the warning itself is indicative of the eternal implications, not the temporal implications. Why is this warning about eternity if at this point the mark has went out and eternity is now off limits to those who have received it? On to the indication.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 
Rev 14:13  Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them." 

From now on is an interesting phrase there. All who die in the Lord are blessed, we know this. The fact that "from now on" is added likely indicates a change in the situation. If people were already blessed to die in the Lord, why is this period going forward now mentioned? I think it's likely that at this point forward the consequences of being a Christian are going to become incredibly dire temporally. At what point in (future) history are we told that the consequences for being a Christian will be most dire? After the mark goes out.

To put it as shortly as i can, lol, I think it's likely that this third angel makes his announcement before anyone receives the mark, maybe days, hours, or minutes before, as a reminder that worshiping this false Christ and accepting what basically equates to his mark of ownership will have eternal consequences from which there is no turning back. This is consistent with the character of God as revealed throughout the entire counsel of the scriptures.

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

 I understand. But I didn't get the idea that people will repent FROM 'did not repent', that would be foolish. I'm merely pointing out the truths extant:

Gentile nations will exist after the end.

They will not be Israel.

They will not be the elect.

There is only one unforgivable sin.

Nations are saved.

No word from the Godhead can be ignored, or elevated over another; and no conclusion is accurate unless all evidence is considered. In considering the evidence presented the conclusion is not unwarranted no matter how provocative.

I don't disagree with this general expository outlook, my main problem is with the idea that repentance is even necessary for those who receive the mark to enter the millennium. I have other questions on it as well, perhaps one could call them assumptions, but those would be outside of the scope of this conversation.

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16 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

I cannot find scriptural evidence to support this assertion. It may be true, but if it is, the scripture is 100 percent silent on it. In other words, I don't believe repentance is necessary on their part to enter the 1000 years alive if they are to do so.

Sure, but it does help to explain where the nations in the millennium originate. Not saying this is true, but I must ponder the idea of surviving wrath sans calling on the Lord. He has destroyed the world once before, leaving only 8 survivors, His anger was not stayed. Perhaps it's necessary to renounce prior behavior, just to survive and avoid destruction.

16 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

I would have to disagree with this insofar as I don't think it can be proven that the mark has even been given out yet. 

I think there is a clue.

16 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

Firstly, it seems to me that the mark doesn't go out until the beast demands worship and the only point in time in which the scripture shows that he demands worship is from the point of the abomination forward.

I agree, the mark goes out at the midpoint after the A of D. I will show timing that fits the scenario.

16 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

Rev 13:14  And he deceives those who dwell on the earth—by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 
Rev 13:15  He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed
Rev 13:16  He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 
Rev 13:17  and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 

This would indicate that the messages of the three angels in Revelation 14 may be a final set of messages for the earth prior to the going out of the mark, from which there is no turning back from the perspective of salvation. I think the context of Revelation 14 indicates this in what could be called a subtle manner (though I don't view it as all that subtle). Starting with the third angel, which we have covered. I'll post the verses for context though.

Perhaps. The Revelation is not a strict chronology, however. It does not necessarily follow that just because ch.14 follows ch.13, the events of 14 immediately follow 13. In fact it's likely that the detailed treatment of the two beasts in Rev 13 fits between the 4th and 5th seal, well prior to the three angels, as I will attempt to show.

16 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

Rev 14:9  Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 
Rev 14:10  he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 

This is a warning and the warning itself is indicative of the eternal implications, not the temporal implications. Why is this warning about eternity if at this point the mark has went out and eternity is now off limits to those who have received it?

Agreed, that would be a pickle. Allow me to elaborate.

I cannot separate the flight of the angels. All three are proximal in time and each carry part of a comprehensive message. Without the first angel there is no context for either us nor the people about to be involved. The first angel clears this up, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”.  This 'hour of judgment' can only be the near arrival of the Lord. The beginning of sorrows is not likened to the judgment of the Lord, the GT is not likened to the judgment of the Lord, only the day of the Lord is likened to His judgment, all in the context of the end of the age, obviously. So I cannot place this flight of angels earlier than late great tribulation, just prior to the 6th seal, and after the fifth. 

After the fifth because of this, "Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.  They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. ".  Unless there is a resurrection prior to the first resurrection at the appearance of the Lamb at the day of the Lord, something I have opposed many times in this forum, then these are the first taken from the earth in what many call the 'rapture'. Scripture tells us this gathering only occurs at the coming of our Lord Jesus, so Rev 14:1-5 has only occurred at the day of the Lord, at the 6th seal, well after the rise of the beast and the institution of the mark and forced worship. Not to mention the Lamb is standing on Mount Zion. That's in Israel, unless there is a heavenly Mount Zion of which I am unaware; then the Lamb has come to earth and we are past the 5th seal and into the 6th.

The view of the 144,000 with the Lamb on earth and the flight of angels all follow in chronological order beginning with the Lamb on earth with His honored group of followers.

Rev 14:

1 "Then I looked..."

6 "Then I saw..." 

8 "A second angel followed..."

9 "A third angel followed them..."

This would mean the warning spoken by the 3rd angel is in the time/space moment after the Lamb has arrived, well after the testing of the mark has begun and immediately prior to 'the hour of judgment'.

I can see this two ways. Either the understanding of 'worship' and 'receive' is in the sense of present and active behavior and has nothing to do with past action, and it is therefore still an option to stop the obeisance and the active acceptance or; not everyone has taken the mark and bowed before the beast and his image at this stage, but so far I cannot see any of the above as prior to the coming of the Lord.

In answer to the three following points, "This is a warning and the warning itself is indicative of the eternal implications, not the temporal implications. Why is this warning about eternity if at this point the mark has went out and eternity is now off limits to those who have received it? I give you this:

It would not matter when the consequence of eternal damnation was applied, it's still eternal damnation, and would not hinge on the dichotomy of heaven or hell. In the scenario I have presented throughout our talk I have consistently noted there will be 'ethnos' populating the earth. Just because the 'ethnos' didn't receive eternal life in heaven in no way diminishes the fact they have escaped eternal damnation, for now, until the 2nd resurrection. 

It's not an outlandish scenario since there must be, "...the nations of them which are saved ..." There were saved from destruction and eternal damnation, not to immortality and glory with our Father, but saved to glorify God and learn to worship Him, saved by His great mercy for His purpose.

Rev 21:24 is inescapable in that "...nations...are saved..." If you have a better explanation to the origin of the nations as distinct from Israel, the 144,000 and the saints, I'll certainly listen.

 

16 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

On to the indication.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 
Rev 14:13  Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them." 

From now on is an interesting phrase there. All who die in the Lord are blessed, we know this. The fact that "from now on" is added likely indicates a change in the situation. If people were already blessed to die in the Lord, why is this period going forward now mentioned? I think it's likely that at this point forward the consequences of being a Christian are going to become incredibly dire temporally. At what point in (future) history are we told that the consequences for being a Christian will be most dire? After the mark goes out.

It's a fair point. No answer. I'll have to think about it. I will say Rev 14:12 is referring to 14:1-11. Rev 14:13 introduces something new, which I will have to ponder.

 

16 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

To put it as shortly as i can, lol, I think it's likely that this third angel makes his announcement before anyone receives the mark, maybe days, hours, or minutes before, as a reminder that worshiping this false Christ and accepting what basically equates to his mark of ownership will have eternal consequences from which there is no turning back. This is consistent with the character of God as revealed throughout the entire counsel of the scriptures.

Even given the previous point you made I still don't see that as possible since the first angel proclaims judgment has come.

16 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

I don't disagree with this general expository outlook, my main problem is with the idea that repentance is even necessary for those who receive the mark to enter the millennium. I have other questions on it as well, perhaps one could call them assumptions, but those would be outside of the scope of this conversation.

I think it would be required or they face immediate destruction. Renouncing their ways saves them from immediate death, while still in danger of the 2nd death,allowing entry to the millennium; cause, ya know, they weren't destroyed.

Outside the scope? We are already off topic, might as well go full monty! :)

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47 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Sure, but it does help to explain where the nations in the millennium originate. Not saying this is true, but I must ponder the idea of surviving wrath sans calling on the Lord. He has destroyed the world once before, leaving only 8 survivors, His anger was not stayed. Perhaps it's necessary to renounce prior behavior, just to survive and avoid destruction.

Quote

I don't know. I don't know that the flood can be used as a parallel here because Noah was just.

Gen 6:9  This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

Hebrews 11 gives a more exacting, though very succinct expansion upon what this really meant.

Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Then we have slightly more information from 2 Peter.

2Pe 2:4  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 
2Pe 2:5  and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 

Noah was saved through the flood. Noah was a just man, was faithful, feared God, and was a preacher of righteousness. I'd be hard pressed to make comparisons to those who enter the millennium (if they have taken the mark) to this man.

54 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Perhaps. The Revelation is not a strict chronology, however. It does not necessarily follow that just because ch.14 follows ch.13, the events of 14 immediately follow 13. In fact it's likely that the detailed treatment of the two beasts in Rev 13 fits between the 4th and 5th seal, well prior to the three angels, as I will attempt to show.

I agree that it's probably not a strict chronology, but I do believe that it is generally chronological. I believe that at least parts of chapter 11 (the beginning of the testimony of the two witnesses specifically) starts before the mid point. I believe they are killed after the abomination (this is the *only* way that the timing can work out unless the abomination is not at the strict middle point, but at some point earlier, which may be possible, but i find it to be unlikely given the entire counsel of the eschatological passages surrounding the event). The chapter ends with the second woe and the sounding of the seventh trumpet, probably the third woe.

There is a pause while a description of the dragon, beast, and false prophet are described in fairly great detail during chapters 12 and 13.

It seems likely to me that chapter 14 comes on the heels of this description because their power is about to come to fruition. One final warning is given in chapter 14 for repentance and then we see the commencement of the bowl judgments starting with chapter 15 (though the actual descriptions of what happen with each one occur in chapter 16).

I agree that this is a loose chronology at best, but it certainly seems to fit a reasonable progression of events.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Even given the previous point you made I still don't see that as possible since the first angel proclaims judgment has come.

Judgment has indeed come at that point and is about to come to its full fruition. I don't see a real problem with such a timing. The second woe occurs after the deaths, resurrection, and ascension of the two witnesses. Judgment really starts even before the abomination, though, most likely, just not to the same degree. The judgments that are falling upon the earth are likely a part of the warning themselves as opposed to being entirely separate from it. Nearly every time we see a judgment occur mankind (except the saints) doubles down in their opposition to God. This is persistent throughout virtually the entire tribulation.

 

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12 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I don't know. I don't know that the flood can be used as a parallel here because Noah was just.

Noah was saved through the flood. Noah was a just man, was faithful, feared God, and was a preacher of righteousness. I'd be hard pressed to make comparisons to those who enter the millennium (if they have taken the mark) to this man.

Agreed, and you are right to point this out, if that was the comparison. I was trying to point out the lack of any hint of being saved from wrath during the flood, and the mention of 'did not repent' during wrath at the end, as well as the difference between Noah and his sons replenishing the earth, and the fact of Rev 21:24, "...nations...are saved...." at the end, who replenish the earth.

 

12 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I agree that it's probably not a strict chronology, but I do believe that it is generally chronological. I believe that at least parts of chapter 11 (the beginning of the testimony of the two witnesses specifically) starts before the mid point. I believe they are killed after the abomination (this is the *only* way that the timing can work out unless the abomination is not at the strict middle point, but at some point earlier, which may be possible, but i find it to be unlikely given the entire counsel of the eschatological passages surrounding the event). The chapter ends with the second woe and the sounding of the seventh trumpet, probably the third woe.

I agree with this. The witnesses arrive at the onset of the last week. Rev is chronological in that events move from the beginning to the end, while the events depicted are obviously simultaneous, or concurrent, or successive depending on where in the timeline they occur. Some chapters are successive as well, some concurrent.

12 hours ago, Steve_S said:

It seems likely to me that chapter 14 comes on the heels of this description because their power is about to come to fruition. One final warning is given in chapter 14 for repentance and then we see the commencement of the bowl judgments starting with chapter 15 (though the actual descriptions of what happen with each one occur in chapter 16).

How likely? At the beginning of ch. 14 we see the 144,000 first fruits with Jesus on Mount Zion. This is a clear break in the chronology as in my mind this must be the 6th seal, Jesus is on earth, again, unless I'm missing a metaphor, analogy or allegory. The description of the two beasts in ch. 13 and their actions needs to occur through the first half of the week, continuing through GT. Vials, as you noted, are only poured out after Jesus and the 144,000 are on Mount Zion(a term used broadly for Land of Israel). If you are correct in this then these warnings come after the 1st resurrection.

12 hours ago, Steve_S said:

 

Judgment has indeed come at that point and is about to come to its full fruition. I don't see a real problem with such a timing. The second woe occurs after the deaths, resurrection, and ascension of the two witnesses. Judgment really starts even before the abomination, though, most likely, just not to the same degree. The judgments that are falling upon the earth are likely a part of the warning themselves as opposed to being entirely separate from it. Nearly every time we see a judgment occur mankind (except the saints) doubles down in their opposition to God. This is persistent throughout virtually the entire tribulation.

 

I don't see a problem with such timing either, if our conclusions are mere supposition.

I don't see any direct statements likening what comes before the vials as 'judgment'. I'm good with indirect statements as well; not opposed to implied conditions either if deduced properly.

Judgment is typically linked to appearance before a judge, or the decision of the judge; post judgment actions are sentences. I just don't see judgment occurring during the end of the age until the wrath falls, which is really meting sentence after judgment, which is not totally accurate either; true judgment has not yet occurred.

Even Peter in his statement about judgment in 1 Peter 4 references an 'open case', yet to be decided. I say this because I'm assured the 'us' in 1 Peter 4:17 are not going to receive an adverse verdict until the case is closed.

I think you are more on track here, "likely a part of the warning themselves".  Seems to me everything that occurs before wrath falls is the warning. It's chastisement, and it's harsh. Much less harsh than eternal damnation. 

And if I get the gist, you seem to be saying that as the pressure on unregenerate mankind grows, they exhibit a directly proportional opposition, and in this case move further and further from repentance, so as to remove any hope they might, or could, repent.

Agreed. In a corporate sense, not individually. And aren't we happy for that? Just imagine if we personally had to pay the price for Jim Baker's indiscretions, or Paula White, Joyce Meyer, Matt Murdock, or any of the other wolves out to devour sheep.

Maybe the 'not-christian' sector of global society does not have to repent, I'll give ya that, but the angel doesn't speak to repentance(this thought came to me last night), the 1st angel speaks to, "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

The angel calls for fear, glory and worship. Now maybe that can only occur if one repents, I don't know, but this messenger does not call for repentance, specifically.

Happy Thanksgiving, by the way. 

Any holiday that calls for giving thanks should be celebrated! (And watch some football) 

 

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15 hours ago, Diaste said:

The description of the two beasts in ch. 13 and their actions needs to occur through the first half of the week, continuing through GT.

I disagree with this to at least a limited degree, insofar as we are only told that this person demands worship after the abomination is committed. The mark itself is concurrent with this worship. If he is already demanding worship in the first half of the week, there would be no israeli remnant to flee to the wilderness (chapter 12) because they would all be dead already for refusing the mark. I agree that these two are almost certainly very active in the first half of the week and probably even before, but we also know that a covenant is confirmed with Israel by the beast specifically to begin the first week and that there is a temple in (at least part) the first half of the week where sacrifices are occurring that are *not* for the beast. We know that when the abomination occurs, Christ orders those in Judea to flee, which means that before this point there is no necessity of fleeing. If he were demanding worldwide worship and executing anyone unwilling to do so at this point, the necessity for flight would've seemingly been long before this.

 

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

And if I get the gist, you seem to be saying that as the pressure on unregenerate mankind grows, they exhibit a directly proportional opposition, and in this case move further and further from repentance, so as to remove any hope they might, or could, repent.

Agreed. In a corporate sense, not individually. And aren't we happy for that? Just imagine if we personally had to pay the price for Jim Baker's indiscretions, or Paula White, Joyce Meyer, Matt Murdock, or any of the other wolves out to devour sheep.

 

I tend to believe that once the mark is taken and these people become part of the collective who worships the anti-Christ, there is no hope for repentance from them (I believe this because they are condemned to eternal damnation at this point explicitly, which has already been discussed).

 

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

Maybe the 'not-christian' sector of global society does not have to repent, I'll give ya that, but the angel doesn't speak to repentance(this thought came to me last night), the 1st angel speaks to, "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

The angel calls for fear, glory and worship. Now maybe that can only occur if one repents, I don't know, but this messenger does not call for repentance, specifically.

I would say this point is moot because I believe that it would be impossible to fear, worship, and give glory to God once you have taken the mark and declared for the anti-Christ. The third angel gives an explicit warning on what happens to those who take the mark. I'm not sure what purpose such a warning would serve were it to be given after the mark has already been enacted and taken by all who will take it.

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

Happy Thanksgiving, by the way. 

Happy thanksgiving to you as well!

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6 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I disagree with this to at least a limited degree, insofar as we are only told that this person demands worship after the abomination is committed. The mark itself is concurrent with this worship. If he is already demanding worship in the first half of the week, there would be no israeli remnant to flee to the wilderness (chapter 12) because they would all be dead already for refusing the mark. I agree that these two are almost certainly very active in the first half of the week and probably even before, but we also know that a covenant is confirmed with Israel by the beast specifically to begin the first week and that there is a temple in (at least part) the first half of the week where sacrifices are occurring that are *not* for the beast. We know that when the abomination occurs, Christ orders those in Judea to flee, which means that before this point there is no necessity of fleeing. If he were demanding worldwide worship and executing anyone unwilling to do so at this point, the necessity for flight would've seemingly been long before this.

True. And we don't disagree here at all. I gave a broad statement which stems from the above, which is scriptural.

6 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I tend to believe that once the mark is taken and these people become part of the collective who worships the anti-Christ, there is no hope for repentance from them (I believe this because they are condemned to eternal damnation at this point explicitly, which has already been discussed).

I understand. Seems we will have to wait and see. The questions remains; "And the nations of them which are saved..." Where do these 'ethnos' come from?

6 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I would say this point is moot because I believe that it would be impossible to fear, worship, and give glory to God once you have taken the mark and declared for the anti-Christ. The third angel gives an explicit warning on what happens to those who take the mark. I'm not sure what purpose such a warning would serve were it to be given after the mark has already been enacted and taken by all who will take it.

You may be right. Still leaves the question concerning Rev 21:24. 

In what form do you think the mark of the beast manifests? RFID? Tattoo? Spiritually? Something else?

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6 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I disagree with this to at least a limited degree, insofar as we are only told that this person demands worship after the abomination is committed. The mark itself is concurrent with this worship. If he is already demanding worship in the first half of the week, there would be no israeli remnant to flee to the wilderness (chapter 12) because they would all be dead already for refusing the mark. I agree that these two are almost certainly very active in the first half of the week and probably even before, but we also know that a covenant is confirmed with Israel by the beast specifically to begin the first week and that there is a temple in (at least part) the first half of the week where sacrifices are occurring that are *not* for the beast. We know that when the abomination occurs, Christ orders those in Judea to flee, which means that before this point there is no necessity of fleeing. If he were demanding worldwide worship and executing anyone unwilling to do so at this point, the necessity for flight would've seemingly been long before this.

...

 

Shalom, Steve_S.

One can see from your position above how the various points dovetail together to form a fabric of eschatology, the branch of theology referring to prophecy and end-time events.

You're statement, "We know that when the abomination occurs, Christ orders those in Judea to flee, which means that before this point there is no necessity of fleeing," tells me that you don't believe that the abomination of desolation has already occurred and that the Messiah's orders to flee to the mountains has not already been fulfilled. But, what if these points already HAVE BEEN FULFILLED? Wouldn't that mean that you'd have to pull those pegs out of your pegboard of eschatology?

It's always good to go back to the Scriptures and test one's theories against the backdrop of the concrete prophecies:

The Olivet Discourse (in which both the abomination of desolation is foretold and the Messiah's orders were written) is found in three of the four "Gospels," the "Synoptic Gospels," Matthew 24 (and 25), Mark 13, and Luke 21.

I wish I could show them to you side by side, but the text editor prevents that (at least, from my perspective); however, I can show them beneath each other. Just remember they have EQUAL WEIGHT when it comes to revealing Yeshua`s words: (Colors, this time, will be used to identify synonymous phrases.)

Matthew 24:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Mark 13:

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

 

 

Luke 21:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

My claim is simple: All these were fulfilled during the First Century A.D., particularly in and around 70 A.D. We are currently IN the "times of the Gentiles" when Jerusalem is "trodden down of the Gentiles." The "great tribulation" which is also characterized by "affliction", "vengeance," "great distress" and "wrath upon this people (the children of Israel, particularly the Jews)" started in the PAST and has been going on for CENTURIES!

It's in the NEXT paragraphs that we find hope:

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven (where it meets the earth) to the other (where it dissipates into space).

Mark 13:

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

All these things were foretold by the Master. Different listeners focused on different things, but together, they give us the totality of what the Messiah Yeshua` said. These later paragraphs are about the FUTURE when our Master finally returns.

Hope this helps.

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17 hours ago, Diaste said:

I understand. Seems we will have to wait and see. The questions remains; "And the nations of them which are saved..." Where do these 'ethnos' come from?

Revelation 21 is addressing the new heavens and earth. This is not inhabited by anyone who has taken the mark, or anyone else who is not saved.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

In what form do you think the mark of the beast manifests? RFID? Tattoo? Spiritually? Something else?

Well, it's certainly indicative of a spiritual state, so i believe that box is checked to be sure, but I don't believe it is *only* spiritual. I think it's always helpful to take a look at the scriptures regarding it.

Rev 13:16  He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads
Rev 13:17  and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

In this case, it would appear to be a tattoo of some sort, a physical mark. I don't generally view scripture allegorically unless the scripture itself gives us reason to and in this case, I certainly do not believe it does, insofar as it is pretty explicit - it's going to be a mark, his name, or the number of his name. I tend to view this sort of like a cattle brand.

Having said all that and stating once again that I believe there will be a physical mark, I certainly would not rule a technological component that is involved in taking the mark, be that RFID or some even newer or as yet undeveloped technology. This would certainly make sense in light of the prophecies regarding buying or selling.

So, in short, it is almost certainly two of those options (physical mark which is an outward expression of a spiritual condition) and could be all three (meaning it could possibly include a technological component).

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