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naominash

Should We Extend Grace to Abusers?

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Isaiah 1:17 New International Version (NIV)

17 Learn to do right; seek justice.
    Defend the oppressed.[a]
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
    plead the case of the widow.

 

Hey Worthy, I wanted a chance to explain my position on grace and abusers in the church.

No, we should not extend grace to unrepentant abusers, child molesters, and narcissistic power-seekers in the church.

Here's why.

First I think there are two common beliefs that I don't agree with. One is that grace is for everyone. The second is that we are called to extend grace to everyone at all times because none of us deserve grace and all sin is equal before God. Let's start with the first one.

Yes, grace is for sinners. That is clear. But what about those who claim to be Christians but habitually live in sin?

Here is what 1 Corinthians 5: 11-13 has to say

11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

But avoiding and expelling wicked people isn't extending grace! God never gives up on anybody! We must love them until they turn to God! Right?

Wrong.

Isaiah 26:10 New International Version (NIV)

10 But when grace is shown to the wicked,
    they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
    and do not regard the majesty of the Lord.

 

But didn't Jesus say love your enemies? What about that?

Matthew 5:43-48 New International Version (NIV)

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This Scripture is often laid heavily on victims of abuse. Love your enemies, so therefore, stay and continue to suffer abuse. That's what Jesus would have done...

Except it's not.

Enduring suffering is only righteousness if there is no Godly way out of it. Even Christ asked to "let this cup pass from Him" meaning not having to suffer the cross and the loss of God's presence. And loving your enemies? That means we're to be like God in helping and doing good to both the righteous and the wicked. To be clear, if a know enemy is on the side of the road needing medical attention, we are to help them the best we can.

If we are 'nice' to people who abuse and manipulate others continually as they claim to be Christian, we only enable even more evil. We are to avoid them and purge them from our midst. How can we do this if we refuse to see that grace is not for everyone?

Grace is for the unbelieving sinners for sure. Grace is for believers for sure. But for those that have tasted the gospel and continue to reek havoc on other's lives?

Hebrews 6:4-6 New International Version (NIV)

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

If impossible, means impossible, than that means that there can be no grace people for those who fall under this category.

 

Now, on to the second one.

Some insist that all sin is equal to God so we have no right to judge whether another person is saved or not. I don't think the Bible supports this.

So Pilate said to Him, “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” (John 19:10-11)

People in the church leap to defend some church leader who has been ousted for the heinous crimes in the name of grace. They say, "We are all sinners. We cannot judge." But suppose we actually went through the steps of church discipline and obeyed the Bible's warnings about evil people in our midst?

What if we actually showed real love and mercy to the victims of abuse and narcissistic power seekers? What if they saw real justice being measured out in the church? Wouldn't they have a reason to be glad about the heart of God? Wouldn't that be a wonderful witness?

What if we stopped rushing to defend hypocritical people and saw evil for what it really is rather than trying so hard to be blind to it with some syrupy cheap knock-off of grace?

Paul was just as full of the Spirit when he called people sons of devils. The Holy Spirit is not always 'nice'. Let's stop showing grace to people who only use it as a license to do more evil and look at us as fools. Let's show real love to people who suffer at the hands of abusers and support them if they want to find a way out.

Reconciliation and forgiveness are not these things we should use to forced abuse victims back into oppression. Forgiveness is simply renouncing personal vengeance and leaving it to the Lord, it is not welcoming back your abuser with open arms.

 

Sorry for the post length.

 

 

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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 3:44 PM, naominash said:

I wanted a chance to explain my position on grace and abusers in the church.

You can love everyone, and not love or like what they do.

1 John chapter 3 verse 15

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

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Posted (edited)

this is what i do. 

I am a human.  i mess up.  i am not perfect.  if the roles where reversed instead of me and this other person... what if it was me in their shoes and it was me and God... would i want/like it if God responded like this....  or this.... 

however lets not confuse beeing meek with being weak.  I will not tolerate abuse to me or someone around me.  if they dont want to act right, then they got to go.... and isnt God much the same?  if we fall into sin and continue on for a while....  you pray but you dont hear God.  and eventually you wont even feel His presence. 

God dont put up with it and we are to be Like Him.  Jesus did flip over some tables and crack a whip a few times.  run some folks out. and lets not for get about lucifer falling from heaven like a bolt of lightning.

Edited by Cletus
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4 hours ago, john1 said:

You can love everyone, and not love or like what they do.

1 John chapter 3 verse 15

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

unrepentant ones ,  get the pattern taught by those who really KNEW LOVE taught .    separate from , correct and if they repent they are restored back in .

If not ,  no not even to eat with such a one .   But that was pauls words , not todays sensual love preachers .  

Love corrects those in error .   it don't hug and smile and just say all is well.  

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Sister I just came by to say You LOVED .    praise the Lord dear sister .    Just praise the Lord .

and let us pay attention to our dreams as well.      God has been showing dreams and visions to prepare us for what is nigh to arrive .

 

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1 hour ago, preciouspearl said:

just found this thread. i have been wondering how to handle abusers. 

You're in a difficult situation, as you still live in the same home with your abuser/s.  I've been in that situation at times in my life.  Love them ... pray for them ... but create boundaries for yourself.  If you're not comfortable talking about certain things, leave the room and pray for them (such as when you are accused of hurting them because you told the truth).   Allow yourself ample time each day to be in the presence of the Lord and be nourished spiritually in the Word.  He is your safe place... your peace... your refuge .... your strong tower!  You can love them and pray for them while not losing yourself in their guilt trips.  And I mean that with all the respect possible - as they are your parents.     

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10 hours ago, Abby-Joy said:

You're in a difficult situation, as you still live in the same home with your abuser/s.  I've been in that situation at times in my life.  Love them ... pray for them ... but create boundaries for yourself.  If you're not comfortable talking about certain things, leave the room and pray for them (such as when you are accused of hurting them because you told the truth).   Allow yourself ample time each day to be in the presence of the Lord and be nourished spiritually in the Word.  He is your safe place... your peace... your refuge .... your strong tower!  You can love them and pray for them while not losing yourself in their guilt trips.  And I mean that with all the respect possible - as they are your parents.     

 

What I mean by "not losing yourself" ... I am referring to your identity in Christ.  We all are born lost, not knowing our true identity, until we come to be found in Christ through accepting Him as our Savior and Lord.  All our lives, we're told who were are by other people, and by the false interpretations offered by satan... things like, "You're bad, tainted, evil... God doesn't love you... you're a failure... you deserve _________" ...or any number of other false identities.  

But when we come to Christ, we are a new creation ... we enter into our true identity.... HE defines us!! We are washed clean, given a new mind in Christ and a new heart that desires to please Him.  Let your mind be renewed daily and be refreshed in Him... so that you are reminded of who you are in Christ.  Those things that were done to you, or that people say to you are not your identity!

 

Acts 17:28

“For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.” 

So look at the verse above.... and when the lies of the enemy (through people or otherwise) bombard your mind about who or what you are... remind yourself that it is in Christ that you live and move and have your being!  Your identity is in Christ! :)  Don't stay in the guilt trips... stay in Christ.... your life is hidden with Christ in God! (Colossians 3:3)  You are sheltered in the Secret Place of the Most High, under the shadow of His wings (Psalm 91).  You are safe... when you are found in Him! 

Edited by Abby-Joy
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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 2:44 PM, naominash said:

Isaiah 1:17 New International Version (NIV)

17 Learn to do right; seek justice.
    Defend the oppressed.[a]
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
    plead the case of the widow.

 

Hey Worthy, I wanted a chance to explain my position on grace and abusers in the church.

No, we should not extend grace to unrepentant abusers, child molesters, and narcissistic power-seekers in the church.

Here's why.

First I think there are two common beliefs that I don't agree with. One is that grace is for everyone. The second is that we are called to extend grace to everyone at all times because none of us deserve grace and all sin is equal before God. Let's start with the first one.

Yes, grace is for sinners. That is clear. But what about those who claim to be Christians but habitually live in sin?

Here is what 1 Corinthians 5: 11-13 has to say

11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

But avoiding and expelling wicked people isn't extending grace! God never gives up on anybody! We must love them until they turn to God! Right?

Wrong.

Isaiah 26:10 New International Version (NIV)

10 But when grace is shown to the wicked,
    they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
    and do not regard the majesty of the Lord.

 

But didn't Jesus say love your enemies? What about that?

Matthew 5:43-48 New International Version (NIV)

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This Scripture is often laid heavily on victims of abuse. Love your enemies, so therefore, stay and continue to suffer abuse. That's what Jesus would have done...

Except it's not.

Enduring suffering is only righteousness if there is no Godly way out of it. Even Christ asked to "let this cup pass from Him" meaning not having to suffer the cross and the loss of God's presence. And loving your enemies? That means we're to be like God in helping and doing good to both the righteous and the wicked. To be clear, if a know enemy is on the side of the road needing medical attention, we are to help them the best we can.

If we are 'nice' to people who abuse and manipulate others continually as they claim to be Christian, we only enable even more evil. We are to avoid them and purge them from our midst. How can we do this if we refuse to see that grace is not for everyone?

Grace is for the unbelieving sinners for sure. Grace is for believers for sure. But for those that have tasted the gospel and continue to reek havoc on other's lives?

Hebrews 6:4-6 New International Version (NIV)

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

If impossible, means impossible, than that means that there can be no grace people for those who fall under this category.

 

Now, on to the second one.

Some insist that all sin is equal to God so we have no right to judge whether another person is saved or not. I don't think the Bible supports this.

So Pilate said to Him, “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” (John 19:10-11)

People in the church leap to defend some church leader who has been ousted for the heinous crimes in the name of grace. They say, "We are all sinners. We cannot judge." But suppose we actually went through the steps of church discipline and obeyed the Bible's warnings about evil people in our midst?

What if we actually showed real love and mercy to the victims of abuse and narcissistic power seekers? What if they saw real justice being measured out in the church? Wouldn't they have a reason to be glad about the heart of God? Wouldn't that be a wonderful witness?

What if we stopped rushing to defend hypocritical people and saw evil for what it really is rather than trying so hard to be blind to it with some syrupy cheap knock-off of grace?

Paul was just as full of the Spirit when he called people sons of devils. The Holy Spirit is not always 'nice'. Let's stop showing grace to people who only use it as a license to do more evil and look at us as fools. Let's show real love to people who suffer at the hands of abusers and support them if they want to find a way out.

Reconciliation and forgiveness are not these things we should use to forced abuse victims back into oppression. Forgiveness is simply renouncing personal vengeance and leaving it to the Lord, it is not welcoming back your abuser with open arms.

 

Sorry for the post length.

 

 

all sin least to greatest (in ones own minds eye) led to eternal separation from God - what could be worse?

The greatness of sin when spoken of in the Bible such as you have  referenced pertains to this

Matt 6:23-24

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
KJV


God indicates there is a place when one is filled with sin that He gives them over to it....

Rom 1:28-32

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
KJV

We all have met these where only vile emissions continually come out of them -like in the days of Noah!

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