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Last Trump vs The Seventh


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16 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Yom Teruah is known as the Feast of the Blowing of Trumpets, including the Last Trumpet (TEKIAH GADOLAH [1 Cor. 15:52]). In Jewish thought, there were three trumpet blasts on MO’EDIM. The First Trumpet was blown on Pentecost or Shavuot and the Last Trumpet was blown on Yom Teruah. The Final or Great Trumpet was blown on Yom Kippur of Jubilee years to announce the Jubilee.  So when Paul referred to the Last Trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52, this was a specific reference to Yom Teruah.

Thank you.  This is a very detailed account but a question comes to mind.  Paul reference to the last trumpet is followed by the dead in Christ rising first and then we who are alive and remain being caught up together with them in the air.  Are you suggesting that this happens every year at the sounding?

I would suggest that while your last trumpet of Yom Teruah is accurate that there remains one last trumpet after which there will be no other trumpet.  At the sound of this last trumpet dead rise,etc.

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On 5/4/2018 at 4:58 AM, Diaste said:

Good Morning, 

This is intriguing. I have heard many times there is a difference between the last trump and the 7th trump. That could be true, but I have never been sure how this is derived from scripture. So I have some questions about how we get there:

"The events of the seventh trumpet do not match the events of the last trumpet."

This is always my go to part of the process. If described events match it's the same event, if not then it's something else. Could you show some scripture?

"The timing of the seventh trumpet is before the seven bowls have been poured out and prior to the resurrection of the martyrs."

Great. How did we get here? Are there scriptures that show timing in this case? You know, with words like, "after this" or "then"?

"The last trumpet is connected with the last day resurrection."

Okay. But I have not seen scripture that says there is a trumpet connected to this day. You seem to be saying the last trump signals the 2nd resurrection. Yes? No?

In citing 1 Cor 15:51-53 to prove the last trump is at the end of the 1000 years, the timing is still missing, innit? I mean, I see the last trump, the resurrection of the dead, but no timing is given here. A point: We are all dead aren't we? We are all perishable, mortal, corrupt, alive or physically dead we are all the same. I think what Paul is saying here applies to any living person, no mortal, corrupt, perishable person can inherit the Kingdom. I don't think Paul is speaking of just the physically dead.

In Rev 20 I see many stunning and profound images, but no last trumpet. I'm not saying there are not trumpets, but I don't read about a last trump in this chapter. Can you cite any scripture connecting the last trump with the 2nd resurrection at the end of the 1000 years?

Thank you and God Bless!

You are asking great questions.  I shall attempt to answer from what I see in the scripture.

My approach to the book of Revelation and the study of end times is tempered by the warnings of Revelation 22:  

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Adding to or taking away from the text are very dangerous.

The question about the last trumpet and the second resurrection is an excellent question.  The text does not state that there is a sounding of a trumpet at that time.  The focus that I keep is on the resurrection.  John only mentions two that he qualifies as resurrections.  The first resurrection is at the beginning of the thousand years.  This resurrection is a closed set and only those mentioned are raised at that time.  This leaves a great number of believers yet in the grave.  As Paul says that we will not precede those who are asleep, I believe that he meant all who are asleep (dead) at that time.  Adding a resurrection and a rapture at the seventh trumpet is adding to the text.  The timing of the resurrections are very clear.  Revelation 20:  4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.  If these were not specified as to the time and who is included then we could speculate and develop theories maybe add 16 raptures and seventeen resurrections.

The nature of the resurrection is bodies coming up out of the grave, the sea giving up its dead.  This resurrection and the hope of it is why we place people in the grave with their feet pointing east and face up.  A time when the body and soul are united again.  Jesus spoke of this in John 6: 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Seven Angels With Seven Plagues.  Revelation 15

15 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. 2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God 3 and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:

“Great and marvelous are your deeds,
    Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
    King of the nations.[a]
4 Who will not fear you, Lord,
    and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
    and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”

5 After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the temple—that is, the tabernacle of the covenant law—and it was opened. 6 Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

The seventh trumpet is sounded in chapter 11 of Revelation chapter 15 is the time of the last plagues.  The bowls of the last plagues follow the trumpets.   

The last trumpet is connected with the resurrection and this last day resurrection is a good time for it.  I do acknowledge that it is not specifically mentioned but I would not want to add it any other place in the text.

Thank you for your question I will be glad to clarify any point. 

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This states "after the tribulation period is over" [Matthew 24:29-31]

It is the 8th trumpet and for the mortals of Israel who have survived the tribulation period

The Lord will gather them and all of them will enter and populate His millennial kingdom as mortals

Matthew 24 is specifically given to Israel 

Edited by Daniel 11:36
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Hebrews 9:28 
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The second coming, notice when He appears the second time, for those who look for Him, it is unto SALVATION .. that is, they are accepted and taken into eternal life which is of course, their SALVATION from death for ever more, and this only occurs at the RESURRECTION.

1 John 3:2 
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

It is a mystery UNTIL they are changed, seeing that they do NOT know what they shall be, just one of the mysteries of course, but one pertaining specifically to the RESURRECTION.

Revelation 10:7 
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The mystery (all mysteries) of God finish (for His disciples/saints) at the beginning of the sounding of the 7th trumpet (when they are changed and meet Christ in the clouds at His second appearing)

Again, WHEN does the mystery of God finish?

When the 7th angel sounds the 7th trump .. specifically as he BEGINS to sound his trump.

This is the true timing of the "rapture" whose biblical title is called the resurrection.

Edited by Serving
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7 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Thank you.  This is a very detailed account but a question comes to mind.  Paul reference to the last trumpet is followed by the dead in Christ rising first and then we who are alive and remain being caught up together with them in the air.  Are you suggesting that this happens every year at the sounding?

I would suggest that while your last trumpet of Yom Teruah is accurate that there remains one last trumpet after which there will be no other trumpet.  At the sound of this last trumpet dead rise,etc.

Hi seeking the lost,

"Are you suggesting that this happens every year at the sounding?"

No, of course not. Throughout history, it was the High Priest who blew the long trumpet blast when the 2 witnesses announced the sighting of the new moon, on Yom Teruah, or Feast of Trumpets. On this last Feast of Trumpets, it will be God who blows the trumpet, signalling the resurrection, the rapture and the start of the year long Day of the Lord. If we look at Num 10:9, the trumpet blast was an alarm:

And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the Lord your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.

You said......"I would suggest that while your last trumpet of Yom Teruah is accurate that there remains one last trumpet after which there will be no other trumpet.  At the sound of this last trumpet dead rise,etc."

If you are referring to the last of the seven trumpets blown by an angel in Rev 10:7........ this series of trumpets are part of God's wrath, beginning at the first trumpet in Rev 8:7. And scripture tells us that we are not subject to Gods wrath.....

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,......1Thes 5:9

The "Great Tribulation" is Satan's Wrath.....its his response to God opening up the seven sealed scroll. The scroll contains.....the title deed to the earth, the names of the righteous who will be resurrected and raptured, ( Book of Life).......and the Wrath of God. Its no wonder Satan doesn't want the scroll opened.

The "Wrath of God"....... IS the 'Day of the Lord'.....which  IS the  "Wrath of God"......

Isa 34:8, 61:2......Day of the Lord.....year of Recompense

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5 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

 

Matthew 24 is specifically given to Israel 

Hi Daniel 11:36....

I have heard this over and over again. It is utter nonsense.......

What are you going to do with Mark 13 and Luke 21 where the Olivet Discourse is also recorded?

These were Gospels written to the gentiles.

Mathew  is the only one of four Gospels which specifically mentions the Church....Math 16:18, and 18:17.

What about Mathew 28 19-20, where we see the 'Great Commission" which is considered to be the 'marching orders' for the Church?

Or the Old Testament that was written for the Jews and by the Jews?....Is it also not relevant for the Church?

The fact of the matter is that ALL of God's word is relevant to the Church either directly or indirectly.

 

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19 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Thank you. It's always reassuring when a brother takes conversation about the Lord and His plan seriously. A very brotherly thing to have the patience to answer a post and the questions of a brother, or sister in Christ Jesus. So thanks again!

Adding a resurrection and a rapture at the seventh trumpet is adding to the text.  

This is something I'm not sure about. I'm being serious. I thought I knew but maybe I do not. 

1 Corinthians 15:52

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

At the last trump. Right here we have a resurrection at the last trump. The only trumps in scripture where I see a last trump is in Rev Ch 8 through Ch 11. The trumpets are numbered 1-7, and they are sounded in order. There is a first trump sounding and a last trump sounding. So if Paul says, "...at the last trump..." and there is a last trump seen in Revelation, why isn't this the last trump Paul spoke of where we are all raised in a 'rapture'?

The seventh trumpet is sounded in chapter 11 of Revelation chapter 15 is the time of the last plagues.  The bowls of the last plagues follow the trumpets.   

The last trumpet is connected with the resurrection and this last day resurrection is a good time for it.  I do acknowledge that it is not specifically mentioned but I would not want to add it any other place in the text.

So do you see the 7th trump and the last trump as the same? I mean the last trump from 1 Cor 15 and the 7th trump from Rev 11? I see them as the same trump. It's neat, simple and unforced. I like that.

Diaste 

 

 

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"I have heard this over and over again. It is utter nonsense"

 

Is it?

The Lord's discourse is written specifically to Israel .... believe this

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1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Is it?

The Lord's discourse is written specifically to Israel .... believe this

What are you going to do with Mark 13 and Luke 21 where the Olivet Discourse is also recorded?

These were Gospels written to the gentiles.

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No they are not .... Israel is still the focus  

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