inchrist Posted May 31, 2018 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2018 15 hours ago, seeking the lost said: Additions to the text are not wise. Absolutely but subtracting from the text is just as unwise. You are still ignoring this group: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. [/quote] And focusing instead on this group And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God There are two mentioned groups here. Let me show you:- John in his narrative, first sees a group sitting on throwns in the verses first scene then moves chronologically to a second scene of those who have been beheaded. This is the flow of the verse If grammar and consistency has any value, you are in error - for example: The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. The first scene of this verse is the earth and heavens fled, then John in his narrative moves to the next scene And I saw the dead, great and small In other words John shows a chronological order of what he sees first and what he sees second. You however in our example here would ignore/subtract from the first scene heavens and earth fled and state John ONLY saw the dead great and small and NOT heaven and earth fled. This is exactly what you are doing with verse 20:4 You are subtracting the sentence or the visual scene of which John sees those who have been given authority sitting on throwns and focusing on the second chronological scene of those who have been beheaded instead, and not seeing the entire verse or entire picture of what John saw regarding the first resurrection. You are grammatically in error. There is not a judgement or a separation of the sheep and the goats, the books are not opened yet You are sequentially incorrect, the books are opened after the separation of sheep's and goats. And it started here Rev 11 The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth. As per Daniel 7:26,27 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’ All kingdoms which are under heaven are handed over at the 7th trumpet Rev 11 The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever. 7 th trumpet is where the court sits, and those judging is the totality of resurrected Christian body I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. Hence Christ comes with His rewards Revelation 22:12 Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done I really Don't think it's logical to sit here and state that these goats .... Revelation 16:9 ► Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him ....are not departed from Christ and on their way to everlasting punishment. Nice test. What part of your test includes anything that indicates that this happens in the millennium? What part of your test excludes it from happening before the millennium Unless you can show me anywhere in history where survivors of all nation's who attacked Jerusalem were forced to go worship on the feast of taburnacle and a documented history of no rain on a nation who refused to go worship on the feast of taburnacle per year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted May 31, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 494 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 208 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2018 3 hours ago, inchrist said: Absolutely but subtracting from the text is just as unwise. You are still ignoring this group: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. [/quote] And focusing instead on this group And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God There are two mentioned groups here. Let me show you:- John in his narrative, first sees a group sitting on throwns in the verses first scene then moves chronologically to a second scene of those who have been beheaded. This is the flow of the verse If grammar and consistency has any value, you are in error - for example: The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. The first scene of this verse is the earth and heavens fled, then John in his narrative moves to the next scene And I saw the dead, great and small In other words John shows a chronological order of what he sees first and what he sees second. You however in our example here would ignore/subtract from the first scene heavens and earth fled and state John ONLY saw the dead great and small and NOT heaven and earth fled. This is exactly what you are doing with verse 20:4 You are subtracting the sentence or the visual scene of which John sees those who have been given authority sitting on throwns and focusing on the second chronological scene of those who have been beheaded instead, and not seeing the entire verse or entire picture of what John saw regarding the first resurrection. You are grammatically in error. Yes there are two groups mentioned here but their time line is quite different. The first group is the martyrs that are raised at the beginning of the thousand years and the end of the tribulation. One thousand years later the rest of the dead are raised. The rest of the dead are raise at the end of the thousand years this is the time that earth and heaven fled from His presence. This is the time that the books are opened and the seep and goats are standing before Him. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. The time line of making the seventh trumpet the last trumpet requires that you place all these things together and they are no together. The seventh trumpet sounds and a pronouncement is made. The seventh trumpet and the first resurrection are separated by seven bowls of the wrath of God. At the end of the tribulation of these days the first resurrection which is clearly stated to be the tribulation martyrs. These are raised to reign with Christ on the earth for a thousand years. At the end of the thousand years the rest of the dead are raised. This is why I place the last trumpet at the end of the thousand years. The end of the thousand years is the time that the dead in Christ are raised not at the time that the martyrs are raised. The lake of fire time is at the end of the thousand years. The seventh trumpet is followed by the rest of the tribulation which includes the seven bowls. This is recorded in Revelation 15 that in sequence is after chapter 11. 15 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angelswith the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. 2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harpsgiven them by God 3 and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the nations.[a] 4 Who will not fear you, Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.” 5 After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the temple—that is, the tabernacle of the covenant law—and it was opened. 6 Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed. The end of the tribulation comes and it is at this time that the martyrs are raised to reign. A thousand years later the rest of the dead are raised. This is the LAST day. The last day of John 6. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted June 1, 2018 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2018 14 hours ago, seeking the lost said: Yes there are two groups mentioned here but their time line is quite different. The first group is the martyrs that are raised at the beginning of the thousand years and the end of the tribulation. No I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge Who are these people sitting on thrones given authority to judge? . This is the time that the books are opened and the seep and goats are standing before Him. No, you can see the goats being separated in Rev 16 “You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were; 6 for they have shed the blood of your holy people and your prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.” Rev 16:9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him. 10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done They are departed from Christ as per Matthew 24 Matthew 25:41 ► Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels There's a big difference in telling someone to depart from me to actually throwing someone into the lake of fire. thrown into the lake of fire. Matthew 25 is not describing events after a 1000 yrs, Matthew 25 is describing events that are occurring in the bowl judgments. The seventh trumpet and the first resurrection are separated by seven bowls of the wrath of God Then you shouldn't have a problem showing me scripture of a literal resurrection at the end of the bowls of wrath that actually shows what you are stating. 1) I want a literal voice of Christ 2) I want a literal trumpet sound 3) I want a literal verse of a literal resurrection The end of the thousand years is the time that the dead in Christ are raised not at the time that the martyrs are raised Can you also please provide evidence in the verse those are the rest of the body of Christ? The seventh trumpet sounds and a pronouncement is made and prophecy is fulfilled Revelation 10:7 New International Version (NIV) 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets Please provide scriptural text on this mystery that was announced to his servants the prophets? The seventh trumpet is followed by the rest of the tribulation which includes the seven bowls. This is recorded in Revelation 15 that in sequence is after chapter 11. you missed so much in Rev 15 look here: Matthew 25:10 (temple open and temple door shut) “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut (No man could enter because the door is shut) Rev 15 temple open 5 After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the temple—that is, the tabernacle of the covenant law—and it was opened And Rev 15 temple door shut no man could enter And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed All of this at the 7th trumpet Further can you please provide evidence of Zechariah 14:17 is not millennium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted June 1, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2018 (edited) "Who are these people sitting on thrones given authority to judge?" This is those who are made immortal just before the coming tribulation period from the beginning of human creation .... a fact of biblical content There are 7 kingdoms of the beast listed in Bible prophecy from Ezekiel 38 to the forth and last terrible kingdom during the 70th week decreed for Israel The first is mentioned in Ezekiel 38 .... Gog of the land of Magog .... this is Satan's ploy Five have fallen from this kingdom thru the end of the 5th .... Antiochus IV was the king of the Seleucid empire The beast was then sent to the abyss and Jesus ascended to the right hand of God The last 2000 years are set for the Gentiles and will end abruptly .... there is no mention of prophecy from this period which is still on going When the Lord is ready He will immortalize all who have and will be living at the moment of His choosing Then His wrath and judgment will come upon a world of unbelief This period is called the tribulation period [the 70th week decreed] where His wrath and judgment will be carried out upon an unbelieving world of humans The first of those given protection are the 144000 believers of Israel Then a few will others will repent and be saved of both Israel and the Gentiles .... most will believe Satan's lie Those killed will be resurrected at the end of the 70th week and the other believers will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom as mortals .... all others will be reserved for His great white throne judgment at the end of His millennial kingdom .... they will all be judged and sent to His lake of fire Then the Lord will bring His eternal kingdom which will last forever Those who argue with this setting on this forum are either false prophets or they have been deceived by the same Edited June 1, 2018 by Daniel 11:36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted June 2, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 494 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 208 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 2, 2018 On 6/1/2018 at 1:51 AM, inchrist said: There's a big difference in telling someone to depart from me to actually throwing someone into the lake of fire. thrown into the lake of fire. Matthew 25 is not describing events after a 1000 yrs, Matthew 25 is describing events that are occurring in the bowl judgments. Hi inchrist; It has been very interesting looking at all that we have gone back and forth about. This issue presented in Matthew 25 is perhaps key to understanding the different positions that we have. That difference is a difference between judgments on people on the earth and the final judgments that determine eternal destinies. The bowls of wrath are poured out upon people that are living upon the surface of the earth. These judgments are temporary. The judgement at the end of the thousand years is of people that have been raised from the dead that determines where they will spend eternity. Rev. 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. The people that now are standing before the throne are people who have died and were buried and their bodies have seen decay but now they are raised from the dead and separated sheep and goats. Sheep on the right and goats on the left. All are judged by the books that are now opened at the end of the thousand years. Those not whose name is not found in the book of life are now permanent residence in the lake of fire. This is the final judgment of all people that have ever lived on the face of the earth. The end of the thousand years is the time that heaven and earth will flee from His presence. Matthew 24 speaks of it in this way: 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. The Day and Hour Unknown 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father. Notice in verse 35, heaven and earth will pass away. 2 Peter 3 affirms this. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a] 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. New Heaven and new earth are where the people who are in the book of life will dwell for eternity. All will have the incorruptible bodies On 6/1/2018 at 1:51 AM, inchrist said: Further can you please provide evidence of Zechariah 14:17 is not millennium? There is no proof either way. There is not a scripture that says that it is in the millennium or one that says that it is not. My perspective begins with the promise of God to Abraham in Genesis 12. 12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. 2 “I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.[a] 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” What I look for is the nations that bless Israel will be blessed and the nations that curse Israel will be cursed. In my own words beginning now the nation that have recognized Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel will be abundantly blessed. This is still on this side of the Millennium. I spoke to a missionary who had ministered in Venezuela. He told me of the time that Venezuela had blessed Israel and how the oil came out of the ground and great mineral wealth was uncovered with great prosperity. Recently the nation of Venezuela cursed the nation of Israel and now they are on the verge of bankruptcy. The temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will be offered. Those who come and pay homage will be blessed. This is the system that the anti-christ will step into and offer the abomination that leads to desolation. When he steps in there will not an option or a choice. Part of the deception of the last days will be related to the resurgence of first covenant observance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted June 3, 2018 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 3, 2018 14 hours ago, seeking the lost said: Hi inchrist; It has been very interesting looking at all that we have gone back and forth about. This issue presented in Matthew 25 is perhaps key to understanding the different positions that we have. That difference is a difference between judgments on people on the earth and the final judgments that determine eternal destinies. The bowls of wrath are poured out upon people that are living upon the surface of the earth. These judgments are temporary. The judgement at the end of the thousand years is of people that have been raised from the dead that determines where they will spend eternity. The judgement in the bowls are permanent. I can point you to Jeremiah concerning this effect that of Babylon. Instead of focusing on the judgment, the real focus is the separation. And this separation occurs at the 7th trumpet because it states so. Rev 11 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” If I accept your statement it's only a "proclamation", then we must determine that the nation's are only angry at the end of the millennium and God's wrath only comes at the end of the millennium. That it is also impossible to determine sheep's and goats in the bowl judgments, because we find no judgment of sheep's and goats during the bowls? Because we can't determine who is cursed to the lake of fire? The judgement at the end of the thousand years is of people that have been raised from the dead that determines where they will spend eternity Yes but nowhere does it state the rest of the body of christ. This is something you have inferred into the text itself. Imagine Christians who survived the tribulation must now spend 1000 yrs outside the kingdom of God, disinherited, simply because they weren't beheaded? Then these words are absolutely meaningless 2 Timothy 2 If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; 13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself Those Christians who survived will not reign with Christ. ( since only the imperishable inherit the kingdom 1 Cor 15:50) Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. How can that be for survivors of the Christian body? How would Christian survivors share wih him in glory? All Christian survivors will have no part, no positioning in the kingdom of God in the millennium, none, therefore no glory. The Day and Hour Unknown 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father This is a Jewish idiom "the day and hour unknown" = points to the feast of trumpets which occurs 10 days before Yom Kippur. Let's look again at Matthew 24 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. The Day and Hour Unknown 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f]but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man So your saying Christ only comes at the end of the Millennium? Let's look at 2 Peter 3 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? So Christ only comes at the end of the millennium? Could you care to explain? There is no proof either way. There is not a scripture that says that it is in the millennium or one that says that it is not. So the following isn't proof? 2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle..... .....Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. Could you care to explain when in history this has occurred? It hasn't, you know it hasn't. See here's the problem, your under this strange believe that Christ is incapable of punishing people during his "peaceful" reign in the millennium. That Christ can not destroy, punish or commit capital punishment in HIS kingdom , what kimd of a King is that? Which by the way he seems to only come for after the millennium with your time line. Because your eschatology is just not added up...it's not fitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 494 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 208 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 On 6/3/2018 at 4:02 AM, inchrist said: Yes but nowhere does it state the rest of the body of christ. This is something you have inferred into the text itself. Imagine Christians who survived the tribulation must now spend 1000 yrs outside the kingdom of God, disinherited, simply because they weren't beheaded? Many, many times I have tried to explain the test of Revelation 20:4,5 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. There are two resurrections listed here. The first and the rest. The first includes only those who have been beheaded because of their testimony. The second is stated as the rest of the dead. This second resurrection includes all those that were not raised in the first resurrection. The second resurrection is in parenthesis in the text. If you have issue with this take it up with John. Those who have survived the tribulation will be in the millennium and with those who have been raised in the first resurrection. Let's look again at Matthew 24 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. You missed the main point of the context. The main point is that heaven and earth will pass away. That is what happens at the end of the thousand years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 494 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 208 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 On 6/3/2018 at 4:02 AM, inchrist said: So your saying Christ only comes at the end of the Millennium? Let's look at 2 Peter 3 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? So Christ only comes at the end of the millennium? Could you care to explain? Many times I have said unto you that Jesus is here and active. He identified Himself to John as Rev.1: 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Is is very present and active not waiting to be active. It seem that you believe that Jesus comes and starts His reign at the seventh trumpet. At the end of the tribulation we see this of the warrior who is coming from heaven. Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns.He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave,great and small.” 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. This is when He comes and wipes out all those who are marked with the mark of the beast. It is immediately after this that the first resurrection takes place and the thousand years begins. Do you see how chapter 20 follows chapter 19? If all Christians are raised and those who are alive and remain are changed then all are immortal at the seventh trumpet, how is it that any one of them can die? Rev 14: 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.” How do they die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 40 minutes ago, seeking the lost said: Many, many times I have tried to explain the test of Revelation 20:4,5 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years Lets just focus on Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. What you have done is repeated over and over the following..... I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God At the expense of ignoring over and over these people..... I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. Inbetween these people (those on thrones and those beheaded) is a conjuction AND Which is the action or an instance of two or more events or things occurring at the same point in time or space. John saw people on thrones given authority AND he saw those who have been beheaded. Because John saw 2 NOT 1 events or things occurring at the same time. He saw people on thrones given authority, and those people beheaded. Grammar plays a very important part in interpretation of scripture. The second is stated as the rest of the dead. This second resurrection includes all those that were not raised in the first resurrection. The second resurrection is in parenthesis in the text. If you have issue with this take it up with John. John is not my issue, it is your interpretations that is the issue, you have no indication of the second Ressurection is that of the body of Christ.....your position is an unsupported statement which again comes at the expense of ignoring the following: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. You missed the main point of the context. The main point is that heaven and earth will pass away. That is what happens at the end of the thousand years. Then we must conclude the Olivert discourse is for the end of the Millennium? After all Matthew 24 States the following: 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. And 2 Peter 3 states the following They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised?Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. Then Christ sign and coming is end of the millennium.... That line of thinking is incorrect because you know Christ comes before the millennium As you state: This is when He comes and wipes out all those who are marked with the mark of the beast. We also know, Let's see 6th seal and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind Theres the fig tree of Matthew 24, heavens passing away here Revelation 6:14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place Sounds like earth passing away here. Everything from 6th seal all the way to the end of the 7th bowl is complete and utter destruction of the earth, the earth is laid bear. Now, could it be heavens and earth is removed multiple times? A recurring prophecy that has it's finality at the second Ressurection at the end of the 1000 yrs....that is the difference between western theology and Hebrew theology....in Hebrew theology prophecy re occurs until it's final fulfilment. It seem that you believe that Jesus comes and starts His reign at the seventh trumpet That's what it states in scripture The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever. That's what Christ taught Luke 19:15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. This is when He comes and wipes out all those who are marked with the mark of the beast And.that's when Christ comes for his second bride.... Yom Kippur (atonement) Here's his second bride Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced I would suggest study Jacob, Leah and Rachel, then I would suggest study the prodigal son. Rev 14: 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” Who says they die in the midst of the bowls of wrath....find me any scriptures showing any Christians being killed in the bowls of wrath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge" This is the pre-tribulation church Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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