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n2thelight

Last Trump vs The Seventh

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15 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The thousand year reign of Christ is characterized as a thousand years of peace. 

No, there will eventually be peace but not in the beginning. It will take time for His kingdom to spread and His influence to affect every city in every nation.


Isaiah 9:7  There will be no end to the increase of His government
or of peace

In other words Christ government and peace will increase until it penetrates every institution.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people

Ps 2:9; 72:9-11

2:9 You will break them with an iron scepter; you will smash them like a potter’s jar!’” 72:9 Before him the coastlands will bow down,and his enemies will lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tarshish and the coastlands will offer gifts;the kings of Sheba and Seba will bring tribute.11 All kings will bow down to him;all nations will serve him.

Isaiah 11:4

11:4 He will treat the poor fairly, and make right decisions for the downtrodden of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and order the wicked to be executed.


Zechariah 14:17

And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain

Rev 2:27

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father

All this ties up with Christ very words in Luke 19:11-27 of the returning king, rewarding his servants and shattering his enemies in order to usher peace, it is a process to yield humanity to its knees to worship Christ.
 

If the tribulation ended at the seventh trumpet and there were a resurrection there then it could be that the seventh trumpet is the last in a series of seven trumpets

I don't see any other series of 7 trumpets in Revelation, that John and Paul would of refered to?

The first resurrection is at the beginning of the thousand years not somewhere in the last third of the tribulation. 


In order to bring the resurrection to the seventh trumpet as you suggest it will be necessary to move the time of this resurrection from the end of the tribulation to the midst of the tribulation

Rev 11 makes no mention of a midst/ middle of the tribulation

  You do understand that a proclamation is different than the actual event.  Revelation 11:18 is a proclamation of what is to take place.

Rev 11:18 is a fulfilment of proclamations.

Rev 10:7

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

Citing John 1:29 won't really strengthen your position:  who takes away the sin of the world.

"Takes away" is a Present Participle; Christ from that time of John's utterance all the way through to Christ crucifixion, Christ being in action of taking away the sins of the world.

In other words taking away the sins of the world was a process that eventually climaxed at the crucifixion

 

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On 5/16/2018 at 7:45 AM, inchrist said:

No, there will eventually be peace but not in the beginning. It will take time for His kingdom to spread and His influence to affect every city in every nation.


Isaiah 9:7  There will be no end to the increase of His government
or of peace

In other words Christ government and peace will increase until it penetrates every institution.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people

Ps 2:9; 72:9-11

2:9 You will break them with an iron scepter; you will smash them like a potter’s jar!’” 72:9 Before him the coastlands will bow down,and his enemies will lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tarshish and the coastlands will offer gifts;the kings of Sheba and Seba will bring tribute.11 All kings will bow down to him;all nations will serve him.

Isaiah 11:4

11:4 He will treat the poor fairly, and make right decisions for the downtrodden of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and order the wicked to be executed.


Zechariah 14:17

And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain

Rev 2:27

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father

All this ties up with Christ very words in Luke 19:11-27 of the returning king, rewarding his servants and shattering his enemies in order to usher peace, it is a process to yield humanity to its knees to worship Christ.
 

 

 

I don't see any other series of 7 trumpets in Revelation, that John and Paul would of refered to?

 

 

Rev 11 makes no mention of a midst/ middle of the tribulation

 

 

Rev 11:18 is a fulfilment of proclamations.

Rev 10:7

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

Citing John 1:29 won't really strengthen your position:  who takes away the sin of the world.

"Takes away" is a Present Participle; Christ from that time of John's utterance all the way through to Christ crucifixion, Christ being in action of taking away the sins of the world.

In other words taking away the sins of the world was a process that eventually climaxed at the crucifixion

 

Greetings inchrist;

As I read the account of the first resurrection I see some words that you might consider.

The Thousand Years

20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Notice that before the first resurrection Satan is bound.  The order is Satan is bound then those who have been beheaded will be raised.

The last trumpet is not just that it is the last in a series such as the seventh of a series of seven but the very last trumpet of all human existence as we know it.   I acknowledge that there is not a trumpet listed for the first resurrection or the one to follow at the end of the thousand years.  The time and the inclusion of the resurrections are fixed and non movable.  Last is that there will be no more trumpets after not that there were six before.

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On 3/15/2018 at 3:15 AM, n2thelight said:

Paul says we gather to Christ at the last trump,how can the 7th of Rev,not be the last?

In the temple days, there is a "last trump" and it's blown on 1 Tishri. 4 different tones and the last one is called Takia HaGadol (the great trumpet). That is the last trump Paul is talking about. Here's the link to one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jR20-0sy1Y

youtube.com/watch?v=0jR20-0sy1Y

 

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Posted (edited)

Again, the last trumpet is the 8th trumpet blown for Israel after the end of the tribulation period .... all of the 7 judgment trumpets will be blown before the 8th trumpet is blown

This trumpet will be for Israel .... 1/3 of all Israelite believers who will inhabit the Lord's millennial kingdom as mortals [Zechariah 13:8-9; Matthew 24:29-31]

All who disagree with this setting are wrong .... most of these are the post tribulation proponents on this website

Post tribulation thinking is in error and held by many .... most of them are also false teachers who are purposely projecting falsehood 

Edited by Daniel 11:36

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5 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Again, the last trumpet is the 8th trumpet blown for Israel after the end of the tribulation period .... all of the 7 judgment trumpets will be blown before the 8th trumpet is blown

This trumpet will be for Israel .... 1/3 of all Israelite believers who will inhabit the Lord's millennial kingdom as mortals [Zechariah 13:8-9; Matthew 24:29-31]

All who disagree with this setting are wrong .... most of these are the post tribulation proponents on this website

Post tribulation thinking is in error and held by many .... most of them are also false teachers who are purposely projecting falsehood 

Hi Daniel 11:36.....

"Again, the last trumpet is the 8th trumpet blown for Israel after the end of the tribulation period .... all of the 7 judgment trumpets will be blown before the 8th trumpet is blown......."

Where in scripture is this 8th trumpet you refer to?.....

I would like to read that scripture.

And no......No, I'm not a "post tribulationist"................ I agree with you that post-trib thinking is in error

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Posted (edited)
On 18/05/2018 at 3:38 PM, seeking the lost said:

Greetings inchrist;

As I read the account of the first resurrection I see some words that you might consider.

The Thousand Years

20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Notice that before the first resurrection Satan is bound.  The order is Satan is bound then those who have been beheaded will be raised.

 

Whixh all fits at the 7th trumpet and than Daniel 7 also goes on to state:

Daniel 7:25 "And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

Daniel 7:26 "But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end."

The judgment is taken away from the Antichrist  by Christ, and by His saints - Rev 20:4  He I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge . Which is what the entire point of the 7 bowls of wrath are all about

The antichrist has been judged, and found guilty. God will remove the Antichrist’s rule and destroy him and his empire in hell.

Quote

 The last trumpet is not just that it is the last in a series such as the seventh of a series of seven but the very last trumpet of all human existence as we know it. 

Where does it state that in the bible?

 

Are we to honestly believe that Paul's last trumpet 1 Corinthians 15:52 who by the way was schooled in the Jewish Torah, it was his profession, who was an export, in fact on the same level as Daniel had no concept of the Gods ordained symbolism of Jewish feasts association with trumpets being 7 series trumpets and not anointed by God as  a prophet associated to the 7 trumpets of Revelation?

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

you have got to come up with some water tight evidence that Paul was not a prophet that God associated with in Rev 10 and we have two completely different last trumpets, one of those last trumpets being in your case completely missing from the picture all together....

Edited by inchrist

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"Where in scripture is this 8th trumpet you refer to?"

 

Matthew 24:29-31

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On 19/05/2018 at 5:22 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Again, the last trumpet is the 8th trumpet blown for Israel  

How is the last trumpet for Israel, when the last trumpet was referred to the church?

in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed

After all since pretrib logic wishes to categories things like the Olivet discourse is for Israel and not the Church 

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22 hours ago, inchrist said:

Whixh all fits at the 7th trumpet and than Daniel 7 also goes on to state:

Daniel 7:25 "And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

Daniel 7:26 "But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end."

The judgment is taken away from the Antichrist  by Christ, and by His saints - Rev 20:4  He I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge . Which is what the entire point of the 7 bowls of wrath are all about

The antichrist has been judged, and found guilty. God will remove the Antichrist’s rule and destroy him and his empire in hell.

Where does it state that in the bible?

 

Are we to honestly believe that Paul's last trumpet 1 Corinthians 15:52 who by the way was schooled in the Jewish Torah, it was his profession, who was an export, in fact on the same level as Daniel had no concept of the Gods ordained symbolism of Jewish feasts association with trumpets being 7 series trumpets and not anointed by God as  a prophet associated to the 7 trumpets of Revelation?

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

you have got to come up with some water tight evidence that Paul was not a prophet that God associated with in Rev 10 and we have two completely different last trumpets, one of those last trumpets being in your case completely missing from the picture all together....

The subject that we are addressing is the question of whether the seventh is the last trumpet.  1 Corinthians 15 is the record of the last trumpet.  

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

The subject of 1 Corinthians 15 is the nature of the resurrection and the time of the resurrection at the last trumpet.  The passage of 1 Thess. 4 also links a trumpet with the resurrection.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so will God bring with Him those also who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord: that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

17 then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

John 6 Jesus tells us of the last day as the time that those who believe in Him will be raised.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It does seem that you are trying to bring the last day into the tribulation.  That does not match the account of Rev. 21 that gives account of the last day resurrection.  

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

At the seventh trumpet there are seven bowls of wrath to be poured out,  and some of the worst part of the tribulation is yet to come.  Rev 13: 6-8 

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If the saints have been raise and those who are alive and remain have been caught up together with them, how then does this war take place?

I really can not follow your time line.   

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