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Man's distinctives from the animals.

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2 hours ago, one.opinion said:

Hey Kevin, do you know of evidence outside of other religious texts that corroborates the narrative within them? The writings of Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny, and Lucian all support the existence of Jesus. Of course, the resurrection is more difficult to support from non-Christian writings, but there are other aspects of Christianity that should be investigated. For example, the oppression of the early Christians by the Jewish religious establishment suggests that there could be something to Biblical claims.

I do indeed.. the extent I've researched. Last 2 non biblical historical researchers I've read say pliny the younger documents are the 1st to document and talk about Christianity.. I'm wary of Christian bias research.. most pushed by AIG . These documents were 100 plus years AD. Pliny himself dies 113 AD I believe but check that. 

In any case the dying and rising saviour son of God stories pre date the Jesus stuff. How much of other God stories in this regard have you read?  How far have you gone with cultural synchronicity /have you read or watched? In  terms of history of a possible Jesus ...e.g. Richard carrier and David Fitzgerald lecturers and books? 

The dying and rising saviour God stuff that pre dates Christianity....Doesn't mean there was no Jesus... for eg the Osiris model of this was demonstrably known to not be real person as we have good Egyptian records. So the Jesus model seems to be predated...a real Jesus that's a weird thing for a God to announce himself and based on a model that's of false gods?

Even if there was a real Jesus. How do we corroberate he was the son of God then the magical things?

How does the oppression you mention prove biblical claims to a God? 

Edited by Kevinb

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3 hours ago, Kevinb said:

a real Jesus that's a weird thing for a God to announce himself and based on a model that's of false gods?

This is only an issue if you make the assumption that the resurrection of Jesus is fiction and only copied from other religions.

There is evidence supporting the resurrection of Jesus, but there is no definitive proof. If there was definitive proof, there would be no need for faith. The Bible consistently teaches the importance of faith. Now that I think on it, if there was definitive proof, there would pretty much be no other religions, at all.

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  • ....And now... What ever happened to the disciples of Jesus.... Two thousand years later, people still believe and I'm sure many would also die for their belief in Him.

  •  

  • Judas

     

    • We all know what happened to him...

     

  • Andrew

     

    • According to Hippolytus:

       

      • Andrew preached to the Scythians [modern day Georgia] and Thracians [modern day Bulgaria], and was crucified, suspended on an olive tree, at Patrae, a town of Achaia [Greece]; and there too he was buried.

     

  • Bartholomew

     

    • According to Hippolytus, Bartholomew preached in India:

       

      • Bartholomew, again, preached to the Indians, to whom he also gave the Gospel according to Matthew, and was crucified with his head downward, and was buried in Allanum, a town of the great Armenia [modern day southern Georgia].

       

    • Eusebius, in his Church History, confirms the ministry of Bartholomew in India, and adds an eye witness account:

       

      • About that time, Pantaenus, a man highly distinguished for his learning, had charge of the school of the faithful in Alexandria... Pantaenus...is said to have gone to India. It is reported that among persons there who knew of Christ, he found the Gospel according to Matthew, which had anticipated his own arrival. For Bartholomew, one of the apostles, had preached to them, and left with them the writing of Matthew in the Hebrew language, which they had preserved till that time. ---- (Book 5, Chapter 10)

     

  • James, Son of Alphaeus

     

    • Hippolytus identifies that James was stoned to death in Jerusalem:

       

      • And James the son of Alphaeus, when preaching in Jerusalem, was stoned to death by the Jews, and was buried there beside the temple.

     

  • James, Son of Zebedee

    James was the brother of John, the disciple "that Jesus loved".

    • According to Hippolytus:

       

      • James, his brother, when preaching in Judea, was cut off with the sword by Herod the tetrarch, and was buried there.

       

    • Eusebius descibed more precisely what was cut off of James:

       

      • First Stephen was stoned to death by them, and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded... (Book 3, Chapter 5)

      Yep... James' head was cut...

     

  • John, brother of James and son of Zebedee

    John was one of the few disciples that did not die a cruel death, but of "old age".

     

    • Eusebius discusses the reason that John wrote his Gospel:

       

      • "Matthew and John have left us written memorials, and they, tradition says, were led to write only under the pressure of necessity...And when Mark and Luke had already published their Gospels, they say that John, who had employed all his time in proclaiming the Gospel orally, finally proceeded to write for the following reason. The three Gospels already mentioned having come into the hands of all and into his own too, they say that he accepted them and bore witness to their truthfulness; but that there was lacking in them an account of the deeds done by Christ at the beginning of his ministry." (Book 3, Chapter 24)

       

    • According to Hippolytus, John was banished by Domitian to the Isle of Patmos, and later died in Ephesus:

       

      • John, again, in Asia, was banished by Domitian the king to the isle of Patmos, in which also he wrote his Gospel and saw the apocalyptic vision; and in Trajan's time he fell asleep at Ephesus, where his remains were sought for, but could not be found.

     

  • Matthew/Levi

     

    • Eusebius referenced to Bishop Papias of Hierapolis, as early as c. 110 A.D., bearing witness to Matthew's authorship of his gospel:

       

      • ....Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could." (Eusebius, Book 3, Chapter 39)

       

    • According to Hippolytus:

       

      • Matthew wrote the Gospel in the Hebrew tongue, and published it at Jerusalem, and fell asleep at Hierees, a town of Parthia.\224 [Parthia is near modern day Tehran]

     

  • Simon/Peter

     

    • Eusebius, quoting Papias of Hierapolis (c. 110 A.D.), records a tradition that the Gospel of Mark preserved the Gospel as preached by Peter:

       

      • "Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered.... he accompanied Peter..." ---- (Book 3, Chapter 39)

       

    • Irenaeus (c. 180 A.D.) records a similar tradition, and mentions that Peter and Paul founded the Church in Rome:

       

      • "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter..." ---- (Irenaeus, "Against Heresies", Book 3, Chapter 1)

       

    • Eusebius records that Peter was put to death under Nero in Rome:

       

      • It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero. This account of Peter and Paul is substantiated by the fact that their names are preserved in the cemeteries of that place even to the present day. ---- (Book 2, Chapter 25)

      (Paul was a Roman citizen can cannot be crucified but got an "easier" death sentence)

       

    • Hippolytus confirmed the fact that Peter was crucified by Nero in Rome:

       

      • Peter preached the Gospel in Pontus, and Galatia, and Cappadocia, and Betania, and Italy, and Asia, and was afterwards crucified by Nero in Rome with his head downward, as he had himself desired to suffer in that manner.

     

  • Philip

     

    • According to Hippolytus, Philip preached and was executed in what today is eastern Turkey:

       

      • Philip preached in Phrygia, and was crucified in Hierapolis with his head downward in the time of Domitian, and was buried there.

     

  • Simon the Zealot

     

    • According to Hippolytus, Simon the Zealot was the second Bishop of Jerusalem:

       

      • Simon the Zealot, the son of Clopas, who is also called Jude, became bishop of Jerusalem after James the Just, and fell asleep and was buried there at the age of 120 years.

     

  • Thaddaeus/Judas son of James

    According to Mat 10:3 (KJV): Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus.... Thaddaeus is also known as Lebbaeus.

    • Hippolytus records:

       

      • Jude, who is also called Lebbaeus, preached to the people of Edessa, and to all Mesopotamia, and fell asleep at Berytus, and was buried there.

     

  • Thomas

     

    • Hippolytus records that Thomas was an active missionary, and that he met his fate in India:

       

      • And Thomas preached to the Parthians, Medes, Persians, Hyrcanians, Bactrians, and Margians, and was thrust through in the four members of his body with a pine spear at Calamene, the city of India, and was buried there.

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4 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

This is only an issue if you make the assumption that the resurrection of Jesus is fiction and only copied from other religions.

There is evidence supporting the resurrection of Jesus, but there is no definitive proof. If there was definitive proof, there would be no need for faith. The Bible consistently teaches the importance of faith. Now that I think on it, if there was definitive proof, there would pretty much be no other religions, at all.

John 20:29, Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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1 minute ago, one.opinion said:

This is only an issue if you make the assumption that the resurrection of Jesus is fiction and only copied from other religions.

 Yes the assumption and default on any claim is what? Buy into a claim when it's proposed or accept no claims until there's evidential warrant? 

In terms of other dying and saviour gods.. well they do exist culturally and pre Christian. As I said this doesn't mean the Jesus one is false. 

6 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

There is evidence supporting the resurrection of Jesus, but there is no definitive proo

 outside the bible what evidence of this bible claim? I worry to what you've read if you think there's external corroboration that Jesus rose. 

 

8 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

there would be no need for faith. The Bible consistently teaches the importance of faith

 Well yes. Faith in the religious sense is a good path to truth? Faith: strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof. Or Hebrews 11.1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

I know you believe in evolution... and science. How do we get to what's likely and our best model for what is true? Faith? Don't drop your standards for evidence when it comes to this... I'll wager you don't do it elsewhere. 

16 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

Now that I think on it, if there was definitive proof, there would pretty much be no other religions, at all.

 All religions need faith. They all think they're right.. correct? They aren't consistent so can't all be true so how do we assertain which are or which one is. Must one be true? Let's test... how do we do that? Scientific sounds good... would that lead us to buying into a claim any claim on faith?  No . Would that lead us to accepting a  religion over another .. no.. not without faith. 

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Hazard. Site not letting me quote your copy and paste.

It seems like an alleged some of the biblical people may have been real. Could you add source material? It may be you're saying they're real coz the bible says.. not sure. 

I don't really have issue if the people were real or not. I've debated Muslims who do this and relate it to the Quran with those mentioned in it. I debated a Jehovahs witness a week or 2 back claiming there were recently found artifacts with gods name on as proof of god. My reply being that's proof people worshipped God not proof of god. Let's not stray into an arguement from ad populum fallacy too...ie all over the world way back people thought the earth was flat. 

There's testimony of alien abduction too. Ergo that's good enough to believe? We should corroberate claims to believe them... especially when they envoke supernatural and magic stuff... when's that ever been substantiated? Famously... magnificent claims require magnificent evidence.

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1 hour ago, Kevinb said:

Hazard. Site not letting me quote your copy and paste.

It seems like an alleged some of the biblical people may have been real. Could you add source material? It may be you're saying they're real coz the bible says.. not sure. 

I don't really have issue if the people were real or not. I've debated Muslims who do this and relate it to the Quran with those mentioned in it. I debated a Jehovahs witness a week or 2 back claiming there were recently found artifacts with gods name on as proof of god. My reply being that's proof people worshipped God not proof of god. Let's not stray into an arguement from ad populum fallacy too...ie all over the world way back people thought the earth was flat. 

There's testimony of alien abduction too. Ergo that's good enough to believe? We should corroberate claims to believe them... especially when they envoke supernatural and magic stuff... when's that ever been substantiated? Famously... magnificent claims require magnificent evidence.

Sorry mate, try this link;

 

http://www.ichthus.info/Disciples/intro.html

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"

all over the world way back people thought the earth was flat."

.

Many still do today :laugh:

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On 4/5/2018 at 5:18 PM, Kevinb said:

Yes the assumption and default on any claim is what? Buy into a claim when it's proposed or accept no claims until there's evidential warrant? 

Do you know of other religions with resurrection claims about historical figures? I honestly haven’t studied world religions probably as well as I should. Also, I believe that Christianity is unique in the intensity of persecution it suffered at its beginning. The disciples had no motive to continue to preach what they believed other than the sincerity of that belief. It would be stretching incredulity to state that they all had the same hallucinations or concocted a story of all the brought to themselves was the pain of persecution and death.

 

On 4/5/2018 at 5:18 PM, Kevinb said:

I know you believe in evolution... and science.

Well, I accept what the scientific evidence suggests. But I also believe that philosophical materialism is a mistake. I think it is an error to assume that nothing could possibly exist that is beyond our ability to sense or measure. I believe there is a living, loving God and what we can sense or measure is the product of His creative work.

I understand this is an extraordinary claim without evidential proof to back it up. But I believe we are limited in what our senses and tools can tell us.

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On 4/3/2018 at 10:54 AM, Kevinb said:

Sadly we aren't learning fast enough. I imagine an alien species.. not that I believe one has visited...hypothetically... looking at humans still fighting and threatening each other. Wrecking the planet.  Don't we look pitiful. I went to the beach today to help pick up plastic... our oceans are littered... that's now affecting the food chain. I see launch of a British made satellite to collect our orbital space debris.

We can see by the behaviour of chimpanzees and apes, why mankind needs a Saviour to save him from himself and atone for his horrible sins.  Thankfully there is one, though it is as the bible says, few will find Him.

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