Worthy has changed a lot in ten years ...

[Neighbor]

4 hours ago, Butero said:

How in the world does any thinking person believe in a flat earth?  That is beyond me, but I don't get mad at someone for not accepting the fact the earth is round.  It is hardly worth making a federal case out of, but I know what you mean about their position.  They think that you must believe in a flat earth to be Biblical.  

 I believe it! Came to that conclusion the first time I went to see my  now bride, at Texas. I had to drive at least three hours past the edge to get there.

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Butero said:

Nobody has stated that anyone can be saved by their works.  Everyone was born into this world with the stain of Adam's sins, which requires the blood of Jesus to wash them clean.  Where we differ is that you claim that a Christian can go out and commit willful sins and remain saved without confessing said sins.  The issue isn't how we got saved, but what is required to remain saved.  Another way to look at it is whether or not the person was really saved to begin with.  Based on your doctrine, James, the brother of Jesus went to hell for suggesting that faith without works is dead.  In your belief system, a person could get saved and completely go back into sin and live worse than Hugh Hefner and remain saved.  You either must say that is true or claim that if they did that, they were never really saved, which defeats the idea of unconditional eternal security because you are then saying their lifestyle disqualified them.  

I will say this again.  If you are claiming that anyone that doesn't agree with your view of unconditional eternal security is not saved, I am saying you are no different than the churches that say you must believe as they do to be saved and anyone outside their belief system is lost.  You are really preaching a works based salvation of a specific kind of belief and action. 

What I really find amusing about this is how it makes no sense for the following reason.  Take me for instance.  I got saved listening to what I believe was a Baptist preacher speaking on the subject of the rapture.  I believed him and prayed the sinner's prayer.  As such, according to you, nothing I can do should ever disqualify me from being saved.  That would have to include joining a church that doesn't believe in unconditional eternal security and rejecting OSAS.  To suggest otherwise is to reject people are eternally secure.  Your unpardonable sin is rejecting OSAS after getting saved.  This in green is so convoluted I don't wish to reply to any of it....

Quote

Nobody has stated that anyone can be saved by their works.  Everyone was born into this world with the stain of Adam's sins, which requires the blood of Jesus to wash them clean.  Where we differ is that you claim that a Christian can go out and commit willful sins and remain saved without confessing said sins.  The issue isn't how we got saved, but what is required to remain saved. 

In the garden where The Perfect Being, Jesus, prayed to His Father's Perfect Being for another way and by what preceded, that was, He being sent to the cross... Now let me put it in the light that it is:

For perfection to begat perfection no problem that is what that accomplished! However here your making works necessary for the perfection to remain- a vomit from satan himself.... for it is resting upon the place of sinners in a fallen world belonging to satan as a necessary component to the perfection... it is not only foolish but vile and it is why those proclaiming right to the perfection based on these works are found to be unknown to The Lord

Matt 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV

What the book of James faith without works is dead is indicating Christ's behavior in His Own Body >even< now so the behavior in the bodies He possesses yet not with the same perfection for we are also placed in union with decision making that will fail at times by the influence of flesh...  However we are kept by the sealing presence of The Holy Spirit within and we find Rom 7 into 8 a life of war mixed with victory and defeats.... but because we are redeemed in this fashion

1 Peter 1:18-21

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
KJV
and as clearly as it could be said perfection is from before creation in God Himself and has remained in God even in the form of The Perfect Man Jesus... so at the cross our sin was placed upon Him by His request

Luke 23:34

34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
KJV
this request was for all men and all sin

1 John 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJV
so that we who believe might have His righteousness placed within us (being born again) wherein lies all faith and hope in God Himself without works...
 

Jesus said we would be known by our fruit not redeemed by it! Satan can fake out the lost and sometimes the redeemed by works but God knows the heart!  
 

Mark 13:22-23

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
KJV

is identifying the ability of satan and his minions to imitate righteous works but the motive of the heart is based on the self righteousness of the created that has rebelled against God and is doing it for self centered reasons outside of the perfection of God's Love...

You have already revealed your heart to us by the claim God created sin... in essence you claim sin is of God and that is of the devil!

You will not answer this question but I will put it to you anyway:

2 Peter 3:10-11

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
KJV
all the first creation 'ALL' it and the works done in it will burn up >they will be gone<... how then will you proceed past this seeing how you find your justification in the works that are done in it?

[Neighbor]

28 minutes ago, Abby-Joy said:

Agreed! We aren't even supposed to eat with someone who names the name of Christ and yet participates in sinful behaviors. 

Ah don't know about that one. ???  Seems to me there is specific guideline for the church within much  of Matthew 18  that contains a more generous spirit than that seems to be expressing.  The passages there also seem to me to include the presupposition that saints will find themselves in sin, least from time to time, as it encourages serious effort at self remedy.

It takes much before one is to be shunned, a thoughtful deliberative process, done in an orderly manner by many together, many with the Holy Spirit given gifts suitable for entering and going through that slow deliberate process. Even then, if one repents they are to be welcomed back and the sins never brought to up to them or the body of Christ again. They are to be fully restored, is the way I understand  the guidance of God for his saints in Christ Jesus to practice, and not a spirit of shunning from a standpoint of personal superior-ness.  

Course that process also presupposes the thought that all Jesus' saints will faithfully participate in a local body of Christ too, not neglecting to meet together. To not do so it seems to me may in of itself be a sinful behavior. ( Hebrews 10 )

 I do conclude that God though perfect and in His perfection cannot abide sin at all, is far more generous in  atoning for our sin  than we seem willing to allow recognition of, especially in the behavior of others if despite his atonement  the saints hold one another up  as sin and shun one another. It is a self destructive and serious fault to pray  with a heart and mindset much like that of the Pharisee,  of the parable, that prayed in error, "I am glad that I am not like".... ( Luke 18 ) Better to pray in closer fashion to that of  the tax collector in that parable.

Least that is the way I see it. And so I will risk associating and even dining with sinners saved and as of yet unsaved, and hope they might pick up the table's check on occasion, but if not I will hopefully always consider it a privilege to do so with the funds God  has provisioned for me for the occasions.

 

Luke 18:9-14 English Standard Version (ESV)

The Pharisee and the Tax Collector

 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt:  “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, hmbld said:

Once saved always saved. If you want to go back to living in sin, you definitely need to be saved yet. By faith. 

This would be a complete answer if it were not for  1Cor 5! That is why judgment must remain with God Who know all hearts  

[Guest Butero]

8 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

In the garden where The Perfect Being, Jesus, prayed to His Father's Perfect Being for another way and by what preceded, that was, He being sent to the cross... Now let me put it in the light that it is:

For perfection to begat perfection no problem that is what that accomplished! However here your making works necessary for the perfection to remain- a vomit from satan himself.... for it is resting upon the place of sinners in a fallen world belonging to satan as a necessary component to the perfection... it is not only foolish but vile and it is why those proclaiming right to the perfection based on these works are found to be unknown to The Lord

Matt 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV

What the book of James faith without works is dead is indicating Christ's behavior in His Own Body >even< now so the behavior in the bodies He possesses yet not with the same perfection for we are also placed in union with decision making that will fail at times by the influence of flesh...  However we are kept by the sealing presence of The Holy Spirit within and we find Rom 7 into 8 a life of war mixed with victory and defeats.... but because we are redeemed in this fashion

1 Peter 1:18-21

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
KJV
and as clearly as it could be said perfection is from before creation in God Himself and has remained in God even in the form of The Perfect Man Jesus... so at the cross our sin was placed upon Him by His request

Luke 23:34

34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
KJV
this request was for all men and all sin

1 John 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJV
so that we might have His righteousness placed within us (being born again) wherein lies all faith and hope in God Himself without works...
 

Jesus said we would be known by our fruit not redeemed by it! Satan can fake out the lost and sometimes the redeemed by works but God knows the heart!  
 

Mark 13:22-23

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
KJV

is identifying the ability of satan and his minions to imitate righteous works but the motive of the heart is based on the self righteousness of the created that has rebelled against God and is doing it for self centered reasons outside of the perfection of God's Love...

You have already revealed your heart to us by the claim God created sin... in essence you claim sin is of God and that is of the devil!

You will not answer this question but I will put it to you anyway:

2 Peter 3:10-11

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
KJV
all the first creation 'ALL' it and the works done in it will burn up will be gone... how then will you proceed past this seeing how you find your justification in the works that done in it?

The reason you didn't address that large part of my response to you is because your doctrine is convoluted, and that part of my response to you exposed it.  I am going to put some questions to you.

1.  If a person gets saved in a Baptist Church at the invitation of the minister and they say a sinner's prayer and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and later join a church that doesn't teach OSAS so they reject it, will that person lose the salvation they received in that Baptist Church?  Why or why not?

2.  If a person gets saved in a Baptist Church at the invitation of the minister and they say a sinner's prayer and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and later go back into worse sin than they were in before getting saved and die in that condition, will they remain saved?  Why or why not?  

3.  If a person is gloriously saved at the preaching of a Baptist minister, and later becomes a rapist and murderer, if that person dies without repenting, will they go to heaven?  Why or why not?  

As to your question, I reject the notion that anyone is saved by their works.  They are saved through faith in Christ.  I also believe the Bible when it says that if a person commits certain sins, whether they are saved or not saved at the time, they shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  I also believe the Bible when it says that if we sin willfully after getting saved, there is no more atonement for those sins.  

I don't believe you can answer my questions.  That is why you gave the response you did.  You can't explain how anyone can lose salvation over not believing in unconditional eternal security.  That is a way to lose it.  It would be to fall from grace, would it not?  If a person is saved and doesn't form their views on anything about works until later, how can you claim they are not saved considering your OSAS position?  Good luck explaining that.  

[enoob57]

2 minutes ago, Butero said:

The reason you didn't address that large part of my response to you is because your doctrine is convoluted, and that part of my response to you exposed it.  I am going to put some questions to you.

1.  If a person gets saved in a Baptist Church at the invitation of the minister and they say a sinner's prayer and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and later join a church that doesn't teach OSAS so they reject it, will that person lose the salvation they received in that Baptist Church?  Why or why not?

2.  If a person gets saved in a Baptist Church at the invitation of the minister and they say a sinner's prayer and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and later go back into worse sin than they were in before getting saved and die in that condition, will they remain saved?  Why or why not?  

3.  If a person is gloriously saved at the preaching of a Baptist minister, and later becomes a rapist and murderer, if that person dies without repenting, will they go to heaven?  Why or why not?  

As to your question, I reject the notion that anyone is saved by their works.  They are saved through faith in Christ.  I also believe the Bible when it says that if a person commits certain sins, whether they are saved or not saved at the time, they shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  I also believe the Bible when it says that if we sin willfully after getting saved, there is no more atonement for those sins.  

I don't believe you can answer my questions.  That is why you gave the response you did.  You can't explain how anyone can lose salvation over not believing in unconditional eternal security.  That is a way to lose it.  It would be to fall from grace, would it not?  If a person is saved and doesn't form their views on anything about works until later, how can you claim they are not saved considering your OSAS position?  Good luck explaining that.  

you do not converse but only convert... I reject your writing and your inability to directly address the issues but fly here and there without reason from the Scriptures... and we will just agree to disagree in the entire structure of Scripture!!!

[Guest Butero]

5 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

This would be a complete answer if it were not for  1Cor 5! That is why judgment must remain with God Who know all hearts  

In your crazy doctrine, a person could get saved and go out and do literally anything and die and go to heaven.  They could die in the act of raping a child and go to heaven.  They could die robbing a bank and go to heaven.  They couldn't even renounce their faith in Christ and worship Satan and lose their salvation.  God wouldn't allow it.  He would force them to enter the joys of the Lord kicking and screaming if they just prayed a sinner's prayer at some point in their life.  That is how dumb OSAS is.  The other side of the coin are those who try to claim they believe in unconditional eternal security while judging that the person that would do such things couldn't have really been saved, which means they are judging them according to their works.  

The problem with your doctrine is your doctrine doesn't work, and what I said about God creating Lucifer with sin on the inside is nothing compared to what you are saying.  That is why I said in another thread that anything you can try to do in making light of my beliefs, I can turn around and do it to you.  I can come up with example after example of what your doctrine really means and put a laugh track with it and turn it into comedy.  Still, I have no desire to do that.  This is all serious stuff, but I am not going to sit back and have people like you attack my beliefs, when yours are as nutty as they are, without a response.  

[Guest Butero]

3 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

you do not converse but only convert... I reject your writing and your inability to directly address the issues but fly here and there without reason from the Scriptures... and we will just agree to disagree in the entire structure of Scripture!!!

It is like I said, you have no answers for my questions.  That is why you simply avoid them.  You know that any way you go, I have you.  You either come out looking like a kook or you wind up rejecting the unconditional part of eternal security.  Your doctrine doesn't work, and the longer this continues, the more damage I can do to it.  I gave you real world examples, but you can't deal with that.  You must come from the standpoint of intellectual mumbo jumbo, like some kind of academic, which doesn't work in the real world.  I gave you 3 simple questions and you couldn't answer them.  Behold your champion that is supposed to be defending OSAS.  

[Steve_S]

I think this one needs to rest a while, as it's nowhere near the vicinity of the OP at this point.