Melissa7 Posted March 20, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 186 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 268 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/24/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2018 Quote HEBREWS 6:4-6: It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. I have always been concerned about the meaning of the above scriptures. My understanding of it is that if a person was once saved, but then later loses their faith or falls away from God, they will be unable (not allowed) to repent and come back to God. If a person keeps falling down often, and then prays again for salvation several times over a time period, is this what is meant by "crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace?" I recently re-dedicated my life to the Lord (again) after 15 years away. It's verses like the ones above that cause me distress; thinking that God won't accept me back. But then, I've never felt truly "enlightened", or some of the other descriptions used. Perhaps I was never truly saved to begin with? But that doesn't make sense since I've had spiritual experiences in the past, that only could've come from the Holy Spirit. I'm confused by these few verses. I would be grateful to anyone who could explain them in an easy-to-understand way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalfTheWise Posted March 20, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 24 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 2,377 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/23/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2018 36 minutes ago, Melissa7 said: I recently re-dedicated my life to the Lord (again) after 15 years away. It's verses like the ones above that cause me distress; thinking that God won't accept me back. Christians have been debating (and at times vehemently arguing) the meaning and application of various verses like this for centuries. To get to the heart of your real question and issue, you are loved by God, His mercy and forgiveness is far greater than we often feel and believe. Our sense of trust, confidence, and security in God is something that grows over time. As we consistently walk with Him over weeks, months, years, and decades, as we seen His working in our life and other people's lives, as we become more conscious of His presence in our lives, then our feelings and sense and conviction of trust, confidence, and security grow stronger. A strong faith, trust, and confidence in God is the fruit, result, and consequence of the quantity and quality of the days we spend walking with God. It is something that grows over time. If I want an apple tree in my yard, I am going to have to plant it, tend it, and patiently watch it grow. If I want to have strong trust and confidence in God, I'm going to need to spend time walking with Him and getting to know Him. Real trust and confidence comes from an unshakeable sense of knowing God well and seeing what He does in our life and others' lives. I think a great biblical example is in John 9 where Jesus had healed a blind man. The blind man is under scrutiny from the religious leaders who were seeking to attack Jesus. In the midst of the all the questioning, the blind man simply states, “Whether he [Jesus] is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!” Many Christians try to bypass this process of the growth of faith by trying to convince themselves of things and trying to eliminate doubts on their own. My observation is that all new Christians and those who get serious about following Christ after a time all have times of doubts and a sense of insecurity at times. This is simply due to not having gotten to know God well enough. No amount of someone telling you what particular verses "really" mean (and arguing why someone who disagrees is wrong) will address the core issue of lack of trust and confidence in God from not have walked closely with Him over a long period of time. For every verse that talks about God's forgiveness, mercy, and acceptance of us, there is another verse that talks about God's wrath. When our faith rests in our opinions (and other people's opinions) about what various verses mean and who they apply to, we will experience doubts and questions. When our faith rests in God Himself and what He is doing in our life, we will not easily be shaken. Hang in there. Pretty much all of us (whether we admit it or not), have gone through periods of time where we have doubts and questions about God's forgiveness, mercy, and goodness towards us. The most important thing is getting in the habit of walking with God more closely on a consistent basis. That walk looks different for each of us. We are each unique individuals that God created to reflect His glory in a way different from others. The way God wants prayer, bible reading, being with other Christians, and other such things to look in your life will be different from others. You need to figure out such things as do you pray best in the morning, evening, at night, throughout the day, sitting quietly alone, during a walk, while driving to work? Each of us is different and our situations in life change. We need to learn to walk closely with God in the unique way He intends us to. Remember the apple tree analogy earlier. Our faith is like that tree, as we tend it over time, it grows and starts to produce fruit. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 20, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,013 Content Per Day: 7.97 Reputation: 21,364 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, Melissa7 said: I have always been concerned about the meaning of the above scriptures. My understanding of it is that if a person was once saved, but then later loses their faith or falls away from God, they will be unable (not allowed) to repent and come back to God. If a person keeps falling down often, and then prays again for salvation several times over a time period, is this what is meant by "crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace?" I recently re-dedicated my life to the Lord (again) after 15 years away. It's verses like the ones above that cause me distress; thinking that God won't accept me back. But then, I've never felt truly "enlightened", or some of the other descriptions used. Perhaps I was never truly saved to begin with? But that doesn't make sense since I've had spiritual experiences in the past, that only could've come from the Holy Spirit. I'm confused by these few verses. I would be grateful to anyone who could explain them in an easy-to-understand way. It was the very point the writer of Hebrews was making... if by law you expect grace then have it! But know this first if ever one violation of law= you are done for eternity as rejected from holiness... most people cannot carry or maintain the weight of all Scripture to reason with only one conclusion as to way, truth and life Eph 2:8-10 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. KJV This is the law that passes not away -we are to be of the essence we are (you either have God within you or you do not)... but if the Hebrew passage applied here-> then anyone who ever once does a work for self that is not good then we become committed to eternal flame of God's wrath without hope! But this is not of Grace but of Law and none can be saved by law for it is an eternal standard that only Jesus alone in His Own body did perfectly fulfill; all others have and will fail or the truth is not in them 1 John 1:8-9 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. KJV These verses could not even be written if by law or works we are justified for salvation... the passage of Hebrews clearly gives only one conclusion Titus 3:5-7 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. KJV We who are born of God through His Grace alone, by Christ alone, through faith alone shall enter into the eternal joy of His Presence forever... Love, Steven Edited March 21, 2018 by enoob57 To clarify my written statement 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 21, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,821 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,751 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2018 This a strange statement, and confuses believers, and it is not clear and does not discrived specific situations. Some people may because of life adverse situations become bitter against the Lord, and go their way following their fellings, and even say to them selfs, challenging Jesus Christ, That I am going to do what I want, what can you do to me, you cannot send me to Hell, I keep my faith in you. And they are right, Jesus turns the other chick, he cannot denied the fact that he has die, for everyone who believes in him, he cannot choose, he accepts every one as they are, in repentance and unrepentans. As a believer I have live both in repentance and unrepentance. And I encourage believers if they ask me that Jesus wants us to live the good life. The writer cannot speak for others, and the Holy Spirit, who can do miracles and heal a broken and disapointed heart, and help us to love Jesus more that the world and our own weaknesses, and that was my weakness, I love my weakness and I was devoted to them. And I love the world, nothing wrong with that, but I went too far. I tried to heal my self, by indulging in the things of the world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Posted March 21, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,058 Content Per Day: 0.42 Reputation: 1,031 Days Won: 5 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, Melissa7 said: I have always been concerned about the meaning of the above scriptures. My understanding of it is that if a person was once saved, but then later loses their faith or falls away from God, they will be unable (not allowed) to repent and come back to God. If a person keeps falling down often, and then prays again for salvation several times over a time period, is this what is meant by "crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace?" I recently re-dedicated my life to the Lord (again) after 15 years away. It's verses like the ones above that cause me distress; thinking that God won't accept me back. But then, I've never felt truly "enlightened", or some of the other descriptions used. Perhaps I was never truly saved to begin with? But that doesn't make sense since I've had spiritual experiences in the past, that only could've come from the Holy Spirit. I'm confused by these few verses. I would be grateful to anyone who could explain them in an easy-to-understand way. Hello @Melissa This verse causes consternation to many. However it is important that we remember to whom this letter was initially addressed, and consider the context carefully. The Hebrew believers were wavering and not progressing on from babyhood to maturity, and the writer was encouraging them to do so, for they were in danger of falling back into Judaism. Yet, with the exhortation to go on unto perfection, comes the words, 'if God permit' (6:3). They were God's workmanship, but with growth in knowledge comes responsibility and accountability (hence the warning of Heb.6:4-6) so their progress must be measured by His Divine hand. Rest in God, Melissa, for you are in His hands, and He will take you on further into the knowledge of Himself, in His time: as you wait on Him and allow His Word to dwell in you richly. With love in Christ Jesus, our risen and glorified, Saviour, Lord, and Head. Chris * See Hebrews 6:9, 'But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak' Praise God! Edited March 21, 2018 by Christine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne222 Posted March 21, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 32 Topic Count: 475 Topics Per Day: 0.17 Content Count: 6,552 Content Per Day: 2.29 Reputation: 7,626 Days Won: 9 Joined: 06/12/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2018 My take is that there are people who heard the gospel and received it with joy. They believe it's true. They repented for a time. But they were never born again. Because they never fully trusted christ. And after believing the gospel they wanted the world again. They knew the truth but rejected it in there hearts. They will never want God again because there hearts are hard. Now there are other interpretations of this. But I think this is most likely. But God forgives anyone who comes to him. Jesus said to Peter seven times seventy. So they don't want forgiveness so it's impossible to bring them back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted March 21, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2018 20 hours ago, Melissa7 said: Quote HEBREWS 6:4-6: It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. I have always been concerned about the meaning of the above scriptures. My understanding of it is that if a person was once saved, but then later loses their faith or falls away from God, they will be unable (not allowed) to repent and come back to God. If a person keeps falling down often, and then prays again for salvation several times over a time period, is this what is meant by "crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace?" I recently re-dedicated my life to the Lord (again) after 15 years away. It's verses like the ones above that cause me distress; thinking that God won't accept me back. But then, I've never felt truly "enlightened", or some of the other descriptions used. Perhaps I was never truly saved to begin with? But that doesn't make sense since I've had spiritual experiences in the past, that only could've come from the Holy Spirit. I'm confused by these few verses. I would be grateful to anyone who could explain them in an easy-to-understand way. Matthew 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.” The important thing to note from the underlined passage, is that we are not talking about everyday troubles. It is when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, and one falls away. Mark 8:38 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels. Also from Luke. Luke 9:26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in His glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. Also remember Paul's exhortation. II Timothy 1:6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands, 7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control. 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,12 which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that day what has been entrusted to me. 13 Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 14 By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you. There is an overall theme throughout the New Testament, in regards to what the definition of the apostasy is. It should not be confused with backsliding or stumbling, it is a conscious, deliberate choice to betray your Redeemer. Do not love your lives so as to shrink from death, or do not fear the one who can kill your body, but not your soul. There is a recurring lesson in regards to what the apostasy is. Here in the west, most of us will live and die without ever facing severe persecution. We may be mocked, laughed at, excluded, or hear whispers about being a goody goody or a prude, and that is about as bad as it will get. Consider what Jesus, the apostles, disciples, and others from that time until the present who stand firm in the face of certain death. The same is expected of each of us, whether we face death or not, so how could we stand before Him one day if we turn away because we didn't want to be laughed at or teased. In the last days, people will be making the choice of whether to remain true to Jesus, or to sell out for food on the table, and keeping their heads. You are still here, stepping out in faith, so now you just need to consider what your faith is founded on. Jesus said He will never leave you, nor forsake you. He says that your sins are removed, as far as the east is from the west. Scripture describes love in I Corinthians 13, and one of the characteristics of this love, is that it keeps no record of wrongdoings. This love spoken of, is not man's love, it is God's love, perfect love, agape love. Have faith in that sister, and hope in the eternal future and all of His promises to you. I Corinthians 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted March 21, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 265 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,169 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,476 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted March 21, 2018 21 hours ago, Melissa7 said: I have always been concerned about the meaning of the above scriptures. My understanding of it is that if a person was once saved, but then later loses their faith or falls away from God, they will be unable (not allowed) to repent and come back to God. If a person keeps falling down often, and then prays again for salvation several times over a time period, is this what is meant by "crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace?" I recently re-dedicated my life to the Lord (again) after 15 years away. It's verses like the ones above that cause me distress; thinking that God won't accept me back. But then, I've never felt truly "enlightened", or some of the other descriptions used. Perhaps I was never truly saved to begin with? But that doesn't make sense since I've had spiritual experiences in the past, that only could've come from the Holy Spirit. I'm confused by these few verses. I would be grateful to anyone who could explain them in an easy-to-understand way. Hi Melissa, Often people come to know the Lord as their saviour but then go right on living their lives according to their plans. They have an immature understanding and experience of the Lord. Then over time they realise that they cannot run their own lives and seemingly `come back` to the Lord. In reality, there is an awakening to the need to make the Lord the Lord of their lives. (This happened to me). These people have not said I don`t believe in the Lord anymore. They have not rejected the Holy Spirit`s drawing them further on, for eventually they `turn again` to the Lord with a greater desire to know & serve Him. On the other hand there are people who actually turn away, reject the Lord and do not listen to the Holy Spirit. Thus who but the Holy Spirit can draw us to the Lord. It is the person`s own rejection of the one who would draw them. One of my all time favourite verses - `Now unto Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy....`(Jude 24) Trust in His care for He is well able. Marilyn. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick jane Posted March 21, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 596 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 320 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/16/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1969 Share Posted March 21, 2018 I believe in OSAS, because that's what scripture tells us. If you ever believed and trusted in Christ, that He died for your sins, was buried and rose the third day according to OT scripture, you are saved and sealed with that holy spirit of promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promises. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: Ephesians 1:3-14 KJV - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 On 3/20/2018 at 7:57 AM, Melissa7 said: I have always been concerned about the meaning of the above scriptures. My understanding of it is that if a person was once saved, but then later loses their faith or falls away from God, they will be unable (not allowed) to repent and come back to God. If a person keeps falling down often, and then prays again for salvation several times over a time period, is this what is meant by "crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace?" I recently re-dedicated my life to the Lord (again) after 15 years away. It's verses like the ones above that cause me distress; thinking that God won't accept me back. But then, I've never felt truly "enlightened", or some of the other descriptions used. Perhaps I was never truly saved to begin with? But that doesn't make sense since I've had spiritual experiences in the past, that only could've come from the Holy Spirit. I'm confused by these few verses. I would be grateful to anyone who could explain them in an easy-to-understand way. If you go back up where the context starts in Heb. 5:11, the issue that is raised has to do with spiritual maturity. That's the complaint being made by the writer of Hebrews. He is not saying that they are in danger of losing salvation. The complaint is that the audience is stuck in the elementary doctrines and are not growing spiritually. So that is the subject matter of Heb. 6:4-6. Look at it starting in v. 1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. (Heb 6:1-3) Do you see what I mean about the issue being spiritually maturity? The word "principles" is a word in Greek that refers to the "first things" and speaks to the elementary principles they first learned when they got saved. They need to move on from that unto "perfection" or as it is rendered in Greek, "maturity." So, vv. 4-6 are not talking about losing salvation. The phrase "fall away" in v. 6 is not the word for "apostasy" but is the word used for someone who isn't growing in their faith. They are not living in sin, not living in rebellion per se. They have not forsaken the Lord, but at the same time, are not growing in the Lord either. The word in Greek, peripiptos, means to "fall aside." It is like an athlete who wears out because he is not conditioned to keep running in the competition. The idea isn't that they have lost salvation, but that they have lost their passion and are not actively living for the Lord. The phrase you asked about referring to "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame," is making the point that we can't keep going back to the beginning. His point is that we cannot go back and start over and get renewed unto repentance because in order to do that, Jesus would have to be re-crucified. And he is saying that their insistence on going back and starting over and wanting to just stay in the elementary principles is akin to a re-crucifying of Jesus and subjecting Him open shame. We don't have to keep going back and getting re-saved. In fact the very notion that we lose salvation and then have to get re-saved and start over, is the very thing that would contradict Heb. 6:4-6 because it is the very thing the writer of Hebrews says puts Jesus to open shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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