Money

[Pillar]

Let's talk about finances and evangelism. I think that Pastors should not take money from the collection plate to live. I think that for those who love God a collection plate is not even necessary as nothing we have belongs to us in the first place therefore must be shared generously.

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

Paul did not handle this dilemma properly.His intentions were good, but it is not the way God wanted it.

[ayin jade]

10 hours ago, Pillar said:

Let's talk about finances and evangelism. I think that Pastors should not take money from the collection plate to live. I think that for those who love God a collection plate is not even necessary as nothing we have belongs to us in the first place therefore must be shared generously.

It would be nice if a pastor didnt have to be paid, but that really isnt realistic. The family of a pastor has to eat and pay for the roof over their heads. If the pastor doesnt take a salary, how will they eat? The wife ends up working? In most cases, being a pastor is a full time job. Its not just putting sermons together for the service. Its ministering to the body of Christ during the week. 

[Neighbor]

Do not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing, be a cheerful giver for giving is worship, praise God for the good pastor / teacher for he is worth a double portion. Amen.

As to evangelism, that is  for everyone. Everyone that is born again is to take individual responsibility for giving testimony as  a witness, and beneficiary of the gospel of christ Jesus; and not pass it's duty and privilege off onto a pastor/teacher,  nor elder, deacon, nor deaconess.

Shame on the saint that does not share of Jesus themselves, and instead thinks they should run to the pastor or an elder and command them to go  instead. Every saint is to participate in more than just giving of money for another to go share of the gospel. Each is to do all things to the glory of God.

Just as it will be a terrible miserly thing to think a waiter or waitress is paid sufficiently (USA) with their half portion of a minimum wage per hour for tending tables of consumers of food and beverage, and that a mere 10% (a tithe) of the total bill is  a good "tip" for their service; so too is a tithe a terrible miserly giving to church when in the face of history God, when applying The Law, calculated a minimum of 23% on average per year plus giving in addition.

While giving is between God and the giver, the historical guidelines under The Law do provide a sense of what one's conscience should be able to consider. Some may give nothing for that is their plight, others may give all for that is their privilege. 

No one should concern themselves that the presentation of the offerings are used to highly compensate workers, for the workers when they go to the grocery must have funds to pay for that which they take. What an awful testimony about the church  body  it will be if the pastor has to go begging, for that would share with the world the low value the church body places upon the learning and the teaching of the word of God, plus the value of the caring of the individuals of the local church body  by the pastor / elders.

Lamenting over the compensation of another, especially  a worker for the local body of Christ Jesus is a tactic  of the ministers of distraction. It should be challenged when it is presented as being not from  the heart that loves God, but is instead the words of the mouth of the heart that still is  stuck on holding onto the things cherished by the flesh. Don't be deceived and then get caught up in their ministry. If tightfisted work to open up that clenched fist holding one's wallet, become generous instead and be a worker too! It is a deep joy. Give and give again till it becomes the norm of one's life as a bond-servant of Christ Jesus

 I suggest each, that feels  need and desire to be tight fisted  in their sharing, work  with prayer and reading of the word, then give  of their time first to a task for their own local church body. Learn to love the church body, and its physical representations, in the chores of the church; then seek out God's will as to just how much they may part with without having to calculate each and every coin given. Pray for the pastor the elder the deacon the deaconess. For they toil hard for the local body.

 

 

 

[Hidden In Him]

16 hours ago, Pillar said:

Let's talk about finances and evangelism. I think that Pastors should not take money from the collection plate to live. I think that for those who love God a collection plate is not even necessary as nothing we have belongs to us in the first place therefore must be shared generously.

You may mean well, Pillar, but I think you go too far. I also wish more ministers emulated Paul's example where finances were concerned, in that I think his example was more self-sacrificing. I think his humility and selflessness are reasons why he was entrusted with greater authority in Christ (1 Thessalonians 2:4-6). He provided for not only himself but Silas and Timothy, and because his teaching was that it is better to give than to receive (Acts 20:34-35), he abstained from giving and receiving (in most cases. See Philippians 4:15). And yes, if an apostle could support himself and others with him then surely some pastors could, especially younger ones. 

But as others have stated, to say NO man should be supported in ministry is to go beyond even the clear teachings of Paul himself. This was clearly not what he was teaching, as Yowm's post makes abundantly clear. 

Suppose a man has great spiritual gifts, such that he can heal the sick, cast out devils, prophecy, and confirm the word with great signs and wonders, yet he has become too old to support himself financially while still engaging in ministry. Should he stop ministry altogether, or receive financial support so he can continue?

[vlad]

23 hours ago, Pillar said:

Let's talk about finances and evangelism. I think that Pastors should not take money from the collection plate to live. I think that for those who love God a collection plate is not even necessary as nothing we have belongs to us in the first place therefore must be shared generously.

I am not a pastor. The church is separate from state, isn't it?. So there is no governmental salary. Of course if there is some other source than that money is not needed. Imagine that you are a pastor. How would you live? When you put your money to the collection plate you are already sharing generously. What is your idea of pastor's or any other church leader's life?

[john1]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 3:23 PM, Pillar said:

I think that Pastors should not take money from the collection plate to live

1 Corinthians chapter 9 verse 9

For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

 

Philippians chapter 1 verse 18

But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,
 

 

I would like pastors to preach for free that would take all the greed out of it, like Billy Graham, who died with 25 million dollars.

[Neighbor]

I would not want my pastor's attention to be divided between serving God and serving another master.

I want my pastor's  mind on the things of God always, so that he may teach me well! 

And so, I do not want my pastors to have to work outside of the church where they already put in many, many, hours per week week after week after week.

I do not want my pastor out having to sell trips to the holy land, boat cruises, annuities, life insurance, stocks, or anything that Satan may use as  an instrument to accuse him before the brethren.

I want all my pastor's to be highly compensated so that their family's are well cared for, and they can focus their greatest attention upon the local body, all the saints in Christ they have been assigned to shepherd.

I want my pastors to have raises every year to compensate for loss due to inflation, and I want my very best pastors to be given double portions of increase as  the body's leadership deem they merit it.

It is a high personal privilege to have a senior pastor that has served the local body of Christ here for over 35 years. It is high duty that he has served well at over the many decades now. Praise God for him and may we all be aware of the benefit  he is in our own lives and to our eternal well being. We do not ever compensate too well for such a fine benefit as we recieve.

[Blood Bought 1953]

16 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Paul did not handle this dilemma properly.His intentions were good, but it is not the way God wanted it.

 

Believers are told that they owe a debt to the one that brings them the Gospel.They must share “ in all good things”. Those that are born- again should have an overwhelming desire to give to the one who preached a message that saved them.If the Holy Spirit indwells a person, He is going to make a giver out of you.I can’t help but want to give to those that feed me spiritually.It frees up the pastor to potentially save more souls and gives me the chance to build up treasure in Heaven.Despite this perfect set up, Paul apparently thought his way was better—— to refuse to let  Believers do as commanded because Paul didn’t want to offend those who may confuse his motives. Gee—— I guess that never occurred to  God when he gave Paul His marching orders, and apparently God was not overly concerned about the losers who may have thought that Paul was only in it for the money.Perhaps they were not “ good soil” that God was seeking.God’s way is always best and had Paul done as instructed he could have potentially seen more souls saved and given Believers a chance to accrue more Heavenly rewards.I admire Paul-both his life and teachings- but in my opinion , this time he got it wrong.As great as he was, he was still human.

 

[Alex2165]

Good post Pillar! GOD  bless you.

And people where sharply divided on this issue, one side of the people supported notion that pastor should be paid, and presented the verses of Paul there he said that those who work for the benefit of the Gospel deserve their wages.

 

But they misinterpreted the word “wages” thinking that Paul meant by word “wages” a monetary value. But actually Paul does not meant that, under word “wages” he meant support for the missionaries by all means but not putting them on the payroll.

 

Paul himself number of times proudly declared that he always avoided to be burden to anyone concerning support for him, and he always work with his own hands supporting not only himself but even his companions in his missionary travels, and Paul urged everyone to follow his example.

Matthew 10.10

10.no bag for your journey, or two tunics, or sandals, or a staff, laborers deserve their food. (Matthew 10.10) (Luke 10.7) (1Corinthinas 9.14) (1Timothy 5.18)

 

Luke 10.7

7.Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, the laborer deserves to be paid ("paid"-NRSV, "wages" - KSB, in other Bible translated as "reward" and as "support"). Do not move about from house to house.

 

 

Matthew 10.10                    Luke 10.7                1Corinthians 9.14                   1Timothy 5.18

KJV       "meat"                     "hire"                             "live"                                 "reward"

ESV       "food"                      "wages"                         "living"                              "wages"

NRSV     "food"                      "paid"                            "living"                              "paid"

Gideons "food"                      "wages"                         "live"                                  "wages"

KSB       "support"                  "wages"                        "living"                               "wages"

GNB      "needs"                     "pay"                             "living"                               "pay"

Russian  "provisions"              "reward"                       "live"                                  "reward"

 

KSB - Mathew 10.10. "support"

1.Or, knapsack or beggar's bag.

2.Or, inner garments.

3.A literal translation - nourishment.

KSB, Mid-reference. P-1274.

 

To Romans 2.13

13.It is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous in GOD’S sight, but the doers of the Law who will be justified.

 

*("GOD loves a cheerful giver" (2Corinthains 9.6-7), according to the theme of entire chapter, it definitely relates to the contributions of food and other material things needed for the saints, for Apostles of Christ in Jerusalem, who were persecuted for the name of Christ and become in need, mostly of food, which the verses 9-12 in 2Corinthians giving some clues about it, but definitely not the money.

On the other hand, money can be accepted too, but it was not the major driving force of the donations, but mostly food, clothes, and shelter for those who persecuted and in need.

If money ever was donated, money never been donated as a payment for anything, or as a payroll and wages for saints, priests, missionaries, people of GOD, or to any other men who preached and served the Lord, but exclusively in emergency to prevent starvation and poverty, mostly of the missionary like Paul and others, but never as a payment for service or a salary.

So the saying, "GOD loves a cheerful giver", has been taken out of its context by hierarchy of the church, it clergy, by pastors, and by all sorts of preachers, in order to justify their parasitic life style and greed for money, paid to them as their salary from the church business and donations of the parishioners.)

 

Such practice to collect money for doing the work of GOD already has been condemned in the Old Testament: (Micah 3.11).

Jesus Christ also condemned such practice: (John 10.11-13).

And Apostle Peter specified that money has no part in the work and in the service of the Gospel as a payroll: (1Peter 5.1-4).

Apostle Paul also clarified this subject and presented himself as an example of unconditional and honest worker of Christ in his missionary ministry, who would not accept money for his services for GOD, but the opposite, work with his own hands to support not only himself but even those who were companions with him on his missionary journeys: (Acts 20.33-36).

A.G.

 

 

Luke 8.1-3

1.And it came about soon afterwards, that He began going about from one city and village to another, proclaiming and preaching the Kingdom of GOD, and the twelve were with Him.

2.And also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and sicknesses: Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, (Mark 16.9)

3.and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others who were contributing to their support out of their private means.

"In the same way, the Lord gave instructions to those who proclaim the gospel that they should get their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14

 

1Corinthians 9.13-14.18

13.Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the Temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share with the altar?

 

14.So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the Gospel to get their living from Gospel. (Matthew 10.9-10) (Luke 10.7) (1Timothy 5.17-18)

 

18.What then is my reward? That when I preach the Gospel I may offer the Gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the Gospel.

1Timothy 6.3-5

3.Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound Words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness.

4.Is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid carving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions,

5.and wrangling among those who are deprived in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

 

Pastor and missionaries shall not be paid! It is a serious violation and Hypocrisy of a church to profit from the Word of GOD. Jesus never profit from the Word of GOD, nor all His disciples, neither prophets and true men of GOD.

And if pastor and missionaries have to survive and make their living, let them get the job like everybody else does, and make honest living, just like Paul did and many other honest people like him.

 

Preaching and teaching GOSPEL SHOULD NEVER be a profession, but a calling of GOD only.