Money

[bryan]

Excellent analysis, Alex.  Thank you!

[Neighbor]

On 3/24/2018 at 3:23 PM, Pillar said:

Let's talk about finances and evangelism. I think that Pastors should not take money from the collection plate to live. I think that for those who love God a collection plate is not even necessary as nothing we have belongs to us in the first place therefore must be shared generously.

Pastors do not take from the collection plate, any more than a store clerk takes from the cash register.

[Pillar]

Thank you especially to Hidden in Him, Alex 2165, and john1.

In response to Vlad's question, I think a pastor's life mainly consists of writing and delivering a sermon on Sunday. I'm sure that I'm ignorant on other duties.

In response to Hidden in Him's question, That old man would require help, yes probably. However, it sounds like the exception to the rule and I don't think we should write the rules based on the exceptions.

Examining Jesus's life, I see that Jesus worked to feed Himself and I infer His family as well. I don't see that Jesus required wages from His ministry targets. These same type of targets exist today and I see that they expect the same from us.

Aye, I am young (well kind of at 34). I accept that I have yet more to learn.

This Xtian chat/ forums is the best thing that's happened to my life in years!

Edited March 28, 2018 by Pillar

[Okoh]

On 3/26/2018 at 4:51 PM, Alex2165 said:

Good post Pillar! GOD  bless you.

And people where sharply divided on this issue, one side of the people supported notion that pastor should be paid, and presented the verses of Paul there he said that those who work for the benefit of the Gospel deserve their wages.

 

But they misinterpreted the word “wages” thinking that Paul meant by word “wages” a monetary value. But actually Paul does not meant that, under word “wages” he meant support for the missionaries by all means but not putting them on the payroll.

 

Paul himself number of times proudly declared that he always avoided to be burden to anyone concerning support for him, and he always work with his own hands supporting not only himself but even his companions in his missionary travels, and Paul urged everyone to follow his example.

Matthew 10.10

10.no bag for your journey, or two tunics, or sandals, or a staff, laborers deserve their food. (Matthew 10.10) (Luke 10.7) (1Corinthinas 9.14) (1Timothy 5.18)

 

Luke 10.7

7.Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, the laborer deserves to be paid ("paid"-NRSV, "wages" - KSB, in other Bible translated as "reward" and as "support"). Do not move about from house to house.

 

 

Matthew 10.10                    Luke 10.7                1Corinthians 9.14                   1Timothy 5.18

KJV       "meat"                     "hire"                             "live"                                 "reward"

ESV       "food"                      "wages"                         "living"                              "wages"

NRSV     "food"                      "paid"                            "living"                              "paid"

Gideons "food"                      "wages"                         "live"                                  "wages"

KSB       "support"                  "wages"                        "living"                               "wages"

GNB      "needs"                     "pay"                             "living"                               "pay"

Russian  "provisions"              "reward"                       "live"                                  "reward"

 

KSB - Mathew 10.10. "support"

1.Or, knapsack or beggar's bag.

2.Or, inner garments.

3.A literal translation - nourishment.

KSB, Mid-reference. P-1274.

 

To Romans 2.13

13.It is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous in GOD’S sight, but the doers of the Law who will be justified.

 

*("GOD loves a cheerful giver" (2Corinthains 9.6-7), according to the theme of entire chapter, it definitely relates to the contributions of food and other material things needed for the saints, for Apostles of Christ in Jerusalem, who were persecuted for the name of Christ and become in need, mostly of food, which the verses 9-12 in 2Corinthians giving some clues about it, but definitely not the money.

On the other hand, money can be accepted too, but it was not the major driving force of the donations, but mostly food, clothes, and shelter for those who persecuted and in need.

If money ever was donated, money never been donated as a payment for anything, or as a payroll and wages for saints, priests, missionaries, people of GOD, or to any other men who preached and served the Lord, but exclusively in emergency to prevent starvation and poverty, mostly of the missionary like Paul and others, but never as a payment for service or a salary.

So the saying, "GOD loves a cheerful giver", has been taken out of its context by hierarchy of the church, it clergy, by pastors, and by all sorts of preachers, in order to justify their parasitic life style and greed for money, paid to them as their salary from the church business and donations of the parishioners.)

 

Such practice to collect money for doing the work of GOD already has been condemned in the Old Testament: (Micah 3.11).

Jesus Christ also condemned such practice: (John 10.11-13).

And Apostle Peter specified that money has no part in the work and in the service of the Gospel as a payroll: (1Peter 5.1-4).

Apostle Paul also clarified this subject and presented himself as an example of unconditional and honest worker of Christ in his missionary ministry, who would not accept money for his services for GOD, but the opposite, work with his own hands to support not only himself but even those who were companions with him on his missionary journeys: (Acts 20.33-36).

A.G.

 

 

Luke 8.1-3

1.And it came about soon afterwards, that He began going about from one city and village to another, proclaiming and preaching the Kingdom of GOD, and the twelve were with Him.

2.And also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and sicknesses: Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, (Mark 16.9)

3.and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others who were contributing to their support out of their private means.

"In the same way, the Lord gave instructions to those who proclaim the gospel that they should get their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14

 

1Corinthians 9.13-14.18

13.Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the Temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share with the altar?

 

14.So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the Gospel to get their living from Gospel. (Matthew 10.9-10) (Luke 10.7) (1Timothy 5.17-18)

 

18.What then is my reward? That when I preach the Gospel I may offer the Gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the Gospel.

1Timothy 6.3-5

3.Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound Words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness.

4.Is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid carving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions,

5.and wrangling among those who are deprived in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

 

Pastor and missionaries shall not be paid! It is a serious violation and Hypocrisy of a church to profit from the Word of GOD. Jesus never profit from the Word of GOD, nor all His disciples, neither prophets and true men of GOD.

And if pastor and missionaries have to survive and make their living, let them get the job like everybody else does, and make honest living, just like Paul did and many other honest people like him.

 

Preaching and teaching GOSPEL SHOULD NEVER be a profession, but a calling of GOD only.

So what you are trying to say is that men called by God to serve him should never be rich?? 

The simple truth is that if you are called by God to carry out his works and your intentions are for your own selfish motives, then that is wrong and God detests such character. 

But if you were called by him and and you love carrying out his work with passion then that is exactly what Christ wants and he will bless you. He will cause people to favor you. So what do you do when God causes people to favor with huge amounts of money?? Will you reject it?? 

Jesus was not rich on earth because he wanted to use himself as an example to teach humility. 

Can a servant of God who is extremely wealthy not also be humble?? 

[Okoh]

On 3/24/2018 at 8:23 PM, Pillar said:

Let's talk about finances and evangelism. I think that Pastors should not take money from the collection plate to live. I think that for those who love God a collection plate is not even necessary as nothing we have belongs to us in the first place therefore must be shared generously.

So what you are trying to say is that men called by God to serve him should never be rich?? 

The simple truth is that if you are called by God to carry out his works and your intentions are for your own selfish motives, then that is wrong and God detests such character. 

But if you were called by him and and you love carrying out his work with passion then that is exactly what Christ wants and he will bless you. He will cause people to favor you. So what do you do when God causes people to favor with huge amounts of money?? Will you reject it?? 

Jesus was not rich on earth because he wanted to use himself as an example to teach humility. 

Can a servant of God who is extremely wealthy not also be humble?? 

[frienduff thaylorde]

27 minutes ago, Okoh said:

So what you are trying to say is that men called by God to serve him should never be rich?? 

The simple truth is that if you are called by God to carry out his works and your intentions are for your own selfish motives, then that is wrong and God detests such character. 

But if you were called by him and and you love carrying out his work with passion then that is exactly what Christ wants and he will bless you. He will cause people to favor you. So what do you do when God causes people to favor with huge amounts of money?? Will you reject it?? 

Jesus was not rich on earth because he wanted to use himself as an example to teach humility. 

Can a servant of God who is extremely wealthy not also be humble?? 

I have seen some of your other posts and was encouraged .    I know you young and praise the LORD that your desire is to serve him.

But please take this advice.  those pastors that preach the prosperity gospel and heap and steap up that money are false brother .

So long as you know that its all well.    just realize that .    Any seasoned man should long well know JESUS is the one true example .

And my brother ,   JESUS did not have MORE than any of those who were with him.  they lived as equals .   paul did not heap and steap

either ,  his mansions were the cross bar motel   .    His abundance was a cloak to keep warm .   Lets keep it simple and real.

ANY man of GOD who leads the flock should live no BETTER than his flock.    and that is honest truth .   His heart should be ON HIS FLOCK

Just remember that .    You be blessed .    Yes a pastor can eat of the flock .   But no heaping or a steaping .   live AS the flock.   

[Guest Butero]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 3:23 PM, Pillar said:

Let's talk about finances and evangelism. I think that Pastors should not take money from the collection plate to live. I think that for those who love God a collection plate is not even necessary as nothing we have belongs to us in the first place therefore must be shared generously.

"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?  Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel."  1 Corinthians 9:13,14

The Bible's position is that preachers of the gospel should live of the gospel, so that is my position.  

[Hidden In Him]

1 hour ago, Pillar said:

In response to Hidden in Him's question, That old man would require help, yes probably. However, it sounds like the exception to the rule and I don't think we should write the rules based on the exceptions.

If this is a double post, forgive me. Still slowly figuring out the quirks at this site, LoL.

Thanks for your response, Pillar. My response to this would be that I think we simply need to return to a proper understanding of what the rules originally were. While I don't wish to get into strife with anyone over this, I do actually agree to much of what Alex posted. I think where the church went wrong is by reintroducing the Old Testament practice of tithing under the guise that it was the same thing as "giving and receiving," which is clearly not the case at all. Giving and receiving was voluntary, and mostly involved simple exchanges, like with food and clothing. There were larger exchanges, such as the sale of lands to provide all things common to believers (Acts 2:44). But again, this was all voluntary. Tithing on the other hand is compulsory, and in the modern era the application of this doctrine is what has opened the door for massive abuses in the name of Christ, even by conservative preachers, which seem to completely contradict the example Paul was trying to set that it is better to give than to receive (Acts 20:35).

I do not stand in judgment over others, including those who disagree with my position on this. God is their Judge, and will judge justly. I simply think the church would be reaching the lost more if the example we are setting returned to the original New Testament doctrines laid down by the apostles. I see no problem in giving and receiving when there is true need, but obligating believers to give massive amounts of money that tempts ministers to live exorbitantly at the expense of the church needs to be corrected, and it will only start when we finally correct our understanding of what true "giving and receiving" was meant to accomplish among the brethren. 

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by Hidden In Him

[Okoh]

4 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

I have seen some of your other posts and was encouraged .    I know you young and praise the LORD that your desire is to serve him.

But please take this advice.  those pastors that preach the prosperity gospel and heap and steap up that money are false brother .

So long as you know that its all well.    just realize that .    Any seasoned man should long well know JESUS is the one true example .

And my brother ,   JESUS did not have MORE than any of those who were with him.  they lived as equals .   paul did not heap and steap

either ,  his mansions were the cross bar motel   .    His abundance was a cloak to keep warm .   Lets keep it simple and real.

ANY man of GOD who leads the flock should live no BETTER than his flock.    and that is honest truth .   His heart should be ON HIS FLOCK

Just remember that .    You be blessed .    Yes a pastor can eat of the flock .   But no heaping or a steaping .   live AS the flock.   

Thanks for the compliment first. But we are still saying the same when u said pastors that always preach prosperity and I said pastors in the ministry for their own selfish motives. I hope you are getting me?? 

And there are genuine pastors who are really willing to do the will of God and please God. 

But my question is if God causes people to favor him with huge amounts of money, should he reject it?? 

[warrior12]

9 hours ago, Pillar said:

In response to Vlad's question, I think a pastor's life mainly consists of writing and delivering a sermon on Sunday. I'm sure that I'm ignorant on other duties.

Really.....  I think you should do a little research on the life of a pastor and come back to this post.  Imagine a pastor having to minister to people with differing opinions , i am not sure he would last that long and the money therefore would be of little value.  

The pastor has to go visit the sick, take calls in the middle of the night, hear of complaints that people blow out of proportion and mediate between spouses ect.  This is the life of a real modern day pastor and much more.   Should he not be compensated for his time and not worry about if he can send his three children to university.   If you want to hear well prepared sermons when you go to church, pay the man, but through a committee or something of that sort that can see the reality of the church income to expense ratio.    This is the modern world and he is a part of it too. 

The pastor on his volition has to come to terms of the gospel and his stance of money and power.  He can decline or accept amounts .  At the end of the day, he will have to give an account for his duties to the flock and his maker on that day.  

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by warrior12