Wall or moat; or is it all moot?

[Neighbor]

 I think it has been proposed before, but what of making the bad lands flourish with water captured and ducted along  the country's southern land  borders? Allow and encourage it's use  making the harsh lands flourish, providing food, places to enjoy living, and employment for many, that will work th eland for their family's benefit and for the country's gain? Seems to me better than an ugly wall that will be tunneled under, broken through,  scaled, and flown over, that will one day be faced by a man seeking freedom for people, shouting out, "tear down this wall!"

Will God not better bless an effort of that type over an effort to  just hold back those that have desire to be free in the USA even to the point they will break it's laws to do so?

[Guest]

You feel the same way about the fence in Israel? After all, it is just "Palestinians" yearning to be free and live in the Promised Land even to the point that they will break it's laws to do so?

[Guest shiloh357]

40 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

 I think it has been proposed before, but what of making the bad lands flourish with water captured and ducted along  the country's southern land  borders? Allow and encourage it's use  making the harsh lands flourish, providing food, places to enjoy living, and employment for many, that will work th eland for their family's benefit and for the country's gain? Seems to me better than an ugly wall that will be tunneled under, broken through,  scaled, and flown over, that will one day be faced by a man seeking freedom for people, shouting out, "tear down this wall!"

 

Nonsense.  

First of all, the wall that is being built cannot be tunneled under or scaled or flown over or otherwise damaged by the illegals coming over here.   Unfortunately, it is a necessity.  We have, for too long, allowed people to flood into our nation, illegally and break our laws, and exploit our humanity and it is time that it come to an end.   

The security fence in Israel works off the same principles as our wall and has worked very well in Israel along their western border with the west bank.   It has reduced terrorist attacks from Jordan by 70% and is still saving lives. 

The wall will protect Americans along the border that have been terrorized by drug cartels.  It will save American lives and keep illegal aliens from bringing crime and drugs and human trafficking into our nation.   

And to compare our wall to the Berlin wall is both ignorant and irresponsible.  Keeping illegals out of our nation is not hampering their freedom.   We are not obligated to take in everyone in the world who wants to come here.   You cannot realistically, with any intelligent credibility compare the wall along our southern border with the Berlin wall.  That is just absurd. 

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Will God not better bless an effort of that type over an effort to  just hold back those that have desire to be free in the USA even to the point they will break it's laws to do so?

It is not up to us to look out for the welfare of the Mexicans.  They have a government tasked with that. If their government will not look out for their own people, that is not our fault and not our problem.   We are not obligated to accept anyone into this nation that wants to come here.  The US is not a charity, we are not social experiment; we are a sovereign nation and it is time we acted like one.   

I can tell you that other nations are far, far, far more cruel than we are to those who enter their nations illegally.   We don't torture illegals like they do.  We are pretty good to illegals by comparison. 

So the wall is a non-lethal protection for us against those who come to our nation wanting to break our laws and there is no reason it should not be built. 

[Guest Butero]

1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

 I think it has been proposed before, but what of making the bad lands flourish with water captured and ducted along  the country's southern land  borders? Allow and encourage it's use  making the harsh lands flourish, providing food, places to enjoy living, and employment for many, that will work th eland for their family's benefit and for the country's gain? Seems to me better than an ugly wall that will be tunneled under, broken through,  scaled, and flown over, that will one day be faced by a man seeking freedom for people, shouting out, "tear down this wall!"

Will God not better bless an effort of that type over an effort to  just hold back those that have desire to be free in the USA even to the point they will break it's laws to do so?

We could create a moat and fill it full of piranhas.  We could put up warning signs so people would know better than to try to go in.  That might work.  

Obviously, we need the wall for national security reasons, and I do not support open borders.  Try suggesting to Mexico they allow open borders and see where that gets you.  They attack this country for wanting to build a wall, but look how they treat those who enter Mexico illegally, especially from their southern borders.  

[Neighbor]

 

One does not have to be for open borders in order to wonder about the value of walls, ugly scars across the lands that produce nothing, will be breached, and eventually will be an embarrassment, or simply crumble like all walls. Least a viaduct will transport water ( If it can be found) and may lift an area's economy to the benefit of many people.  The USA doe not have the very short expanse between it's borders like Israel. It can afford vast areas dedicated to the flow of water for the making of orchards, vineyards, and farmland. It can feed many many people that today  are not fed well. Then trees may be planted and the landscape freshened. Seems to me that might be a higher call to honor  and bring Glory to God, than just  building a wall, th emaking of an ugly scar.

..."

And on a day we meet to walk the line

And set the wall between us once again.

We keep the wall between us as we go.

To each the boulders that have fallen to each.

And some are loaves and some so nearly balls

We have to use a spell to make them balance:

"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"

We wear our fingers rough with handling them.

Oh, just another kind of out-door game,

One on a side. It comes to little more:

There where it is we do not need the wall:

He is all pine and I am apple orchard.

My apple trees will never get across

And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.

He only says, "Good fences make good neighbours."

Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder

If I could put a notion in his head:

"Why do they make good neighbours? Isn't it

Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.

Before I built a wall I'd ask to know

What I was walling in or walling out,

And to whom I was like to give offence."....

 

Seems to me that walls like the walling up in rules of the Law teach the futility of walls, by pointing only to death, and not to life eternal to be found in embracing the grace and the mercy extended in Christ Jesus to all that hear and heed the call of the Holy Spirit. And that there is to be found the brother and the sister, not in the geography of physical walls and barriers. The argument is made we must stop drugs, yeah sure a wall will stop the demand for them for sure. Only the end consumer can stop drugs from being sold. Only the end consumer. It is a consumer driven  marketplace. This battle is spiritual in nature ,yet it is being fought almost solely as a physical battle, one  where great forts are being established that only serve to corral  the end users into easy to serve and supply end user colonies.

 

 

[Neighbor]

36 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

Mexico has had resources; it isn't all desert! But to the issue: at what point is a nation and its' people responsible for doing the work needed to make their land livable instead of co-opting th hard work of another nation? And what happens when the land they co-opt is ruined, because they brought their problems there instead of solving them?

Running from a problem ultimately results in the problem following you.

Israel did the hard work to make their deserts bloom and invested time and effort into it; if Mexico wants to learn a lesson on how to use what they have, they should ask them.

Hi, Mexico? I am not thinking of Mexico. I am thinking of the vast areas of the USA that are water starved. (The USA does starve Mexico of water from the Rio Grande)

I wonder about making all those dry areas flourish  so that there is need of more people to utilize those areas. I see value in a great viaduct system throughout this land. New Mexico yes, Arizona yes, California (even more than exists now) yes, Texas yes, Oklahoma yes.

Why not  carefully control the entire geography that  is the USA  expanding upon the US Army Corp of engineers concept with a largest ever construction project to bring water where it may be used for enriching the land and serving more people? Spend on water control systems not walls, and encourage economic development that lasts, instead of a one time construction project of concrete and steel walls that feeds no one and nourishes nothing. In the process make a moat too.

It just seems to me walls are a dumb persons way of keeping separate. They all fail and eventually fall or crumble. They just make a monument  to death of cultures that try it. From the great wall of China to the Marginal Line of defense, walled cities tend to fall into the hands of the perceived enemy.

Walled in people become very stupid over time, and when severe plague or famine come they just sit in place and starve or die of illness, not realizing they could have moved away from trouble, except for the wall, and the tryanny that rules over the wall.

The borders and walls  and river obstacles between China and North Korea have caused several millions to die of starvation, when instead trade and freer movement could have saved many of those now dead. Yet it is encouraged that we have a wall , a great  big beautiful wall.

Some day there will be a great shout against this land's people to take down that wall! And the call will be championed by freedom loving people that see the separation  by a wall as a scar on the land and a stain on the souls of it's inhabitants.

To me all the problems that the wall is supposed to cure are spiritual problems. I see no spiritual victory in a physical wall. If a wall is to be built it need be a spiritual wall against the forces of Satan and his minions.

Instead of a concrete wall I suggest a cup of cool water, in fact billions upon billions of cups of cool water extended to an unbelieving world in the name of our Lord Jesus.

[p.rehbein]

Walls have been a part of History since, well, since man figured out how to build them.  I do understand what the OP is saying though.  However, to actually turn the Southwest lands into something other than desert, would cost far more than building a wall.  Folks in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California have been trying to do that for years.  Now, a lot of the Southern land is Ranch land, and is being used, so, not all of it is going to waste.  As well, a goodly portion consists of mountains.  

One of the most dangerous stretches (as I understand it) is along the Arizona border.  I saw one of the Border Police shows that said in one stretch, one County, over 200 people a year die trying to cross there.  A wall may be more humane that leaving it as it is?

In truth, we could never build an actual wall the length of our Southern border.  A combination of wall, fence, and electronic surveillance would probably be the only way to secure our Southern border.........and, even then.......folks would still get in.

 

 

[Debp]

As one who lives in drought stricken Southern California, and I also hear of other States like Nevada and Arizona going to be requiring even more water for their growing populations...I don't know where we would get this water from.   It would have to be transported from Oregon or other States that get plenty of rain.

[TheMatrixHasU71]

20 hours ago, Neighbor said:

 I think it has been proposed before, but what of making the bad lands flourish with water captured and ducted along  the country's southern land  borders? Allow and encourage it's use  making the harsh lands flourish, providing food, places to enjoy living, and employment for many, that will work th eland for their family's benefit and for the country's gain? Seems to me better than an ugly wall that will be tunneled under, broken through,  scaled, and flown over, that will one day be faced by a man seeking freedom for people, shouting out, "tear down this wall!"

Will God not better bless an effort of that type over an effort to  just hold back those that have desire to be free in the USA even to the point they will break it's laws to do so?

No border, no country. At least a wall will slow things down significantly even if (as we all know) it cant stop illegals entirely? This is NOT God's will. 

So you think that illegals who are largely criminals should just be allowed to just come on over any time they please while law abiding immigrants have to go through the usual channels and pay money for their citizenship? Wake up man its attitudes like yours that are the reason why the US is having such trouble with MS13 ; because you think no illegal can do any harm

Edited March 29, 2018 by TheMatrixHasU71

[TheMatrixHasU71]

20 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

You feel the same way about the fence in Israel? After all, it is just "Palestinians" yearning to be free and live in the Promised Land even to the point that they will break it's laws to do so?

Palestinians are largely Muslims who want to destroy Israel. Save that they repent and abandon Islam they have no place in Israel. They dont belong there