Mystery Babylon

[WilliamL]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 10:52 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Mystery Babylon the Great is the Lord's way of describing the fall of mankind at the time of the end

On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 11:16 AM, wingnut- said:

Revelation 18:24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
    and of all who have been slain on earth.”

That is only true of Jerusalem, because it was in that great city that sin and death were paid for, for all time. 

On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 12:56 PM, Revelation Man said:

The Harlot (Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Witchcraft of all types, and all False Religions) will be Destroyed by the Government (10 Kings in league with the Beast) thus God Judges the Harlot or all False Religions.

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 1:37 PM, Last Daze said:

Mystery Babylon in Rev 17 & 18 is the spiritual influence of Satan's kingdom on mankind since the beginning.  It will end with the return of Christ.  It's the only thing that fits all of the characteristics.

Rev. 17:18 tells us which city the Great Whore of Rev. 17-18 is: “…the great city the (one) having [present active participle] a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” Rome. By the time John wrote the Revelation, Rome indeed had become “drunk with the blood of the saints and…the witnesses of Jesus,” 17:6.

Question “...is Rome in the desert, as Rev 17:3 clearly tells us...?”

A large part of Rev. 17 is symbolic. Babylon the Great and her harlot daughters symbolize religious idolatry, in rebellion against the true worship of God. Babylon was the mother-city of the idolatry that Nimrod began and promoted after the Flood.

Rome was the spiritual daughter of Babylon, whose pre-Christian idolatry infested Roman Catholicism with images and icons. For example, a 330-ton pagan obelisk imported to Rome by Emperor Caligula, from the Temple of the Sun in Heliopolis, Egypt, was later moved by Pope Sixtus V to the center of St. Peter's Square, directly in front of St. Peter's Basilica. Religious idolatry, in rebellion against the true worship of God.

 

The Beast with its heads and horns symbolize the whole system of carnal government, in rebellion against the Kingdom of Heaven. The desert symbolizes the barrenness of rebellion, in opposition to the fruitfulness of obedience:

Cursed is the man...whose heart departs from the LORD...[he] shall inhabit the parched places in the desert. … Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD...for he shall be like a tree planted by the waters... Jer. 17:5-8

 

Now to some verse in question:

Rev. 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Matt. 23:35 That upon you may [Jerusalem] come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Wingnut equates these two verses, using them as proof that the whore of Rev. 17 is Jerusalem, while ignoring the preceding verses 21-23 that say,

Rev. 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 …no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more in you… 23 And the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in you…”

But these verses cannot apply at all to Jerusalem in the End Times, nor to the world, because numerous Scriptures tell us things like this:

Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up [17 to Jerusalem] from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Joel 3:20 But Judah shall abide forever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

 

So then what is the meaning of Rev. 18:24? Simply that all who lead in a rebellion against the Lord and his commandments – beginning with Nimrod – become responsible for all the blood of the righteous. Jesus told Jerusalem's religious leaders of his day,

Mark 7:8 “…laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men... 9 …you annul the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.”

This fits Roman Catholicism and her harlot daughters to a T, as everyone who has looked into the issue quickly learns. All religious rebellion against God starts with the self-exaltation of human priests, who exalt their own authority over the authority of God's Word.

 

My final post on this subject.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by WilliamL

[Last Daze]

• And on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”  Revelation 17:5

It's not that difficult.  Where did all unfaithfulness (harlotry) and sin (abominations) come from?  Answer that question and you have your answer to who/what Babylon is, at least in a spiritual sense.

[wingnut-]

On 5/1/2018 at 11:50 AM, WilliamL said:

According to you, this refers to Jerusalem:

Rev. 18:8 “Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her." ... 19 For in one hour she is made desolate.’ 20 “Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”

Give us a second witness from the Scriptures of this prophecy being fulfilled according to your reading -- that Jerusalem will be utterly destroyed by fire in the End Times.

 

For starters, the entire earth is to be destroyed by fire.

 

II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

Jerusalem specific.

 

Isaiah 1:21  How the faithful city
    has become a whore,
    she who was full of justice!
Righteousness lodged in her,
    but now murderers.
22 Your silver has become dross,
    your best wine mixed with water.
23 Your princes are rebels
    and companions of thieves.
Everyone loves a bribe
    and runs after gifts.
They do not bring justice to the fatherless,
    and the widow's cause does not come to them.

24 Therefore the Lord declares,
    the Lord of hosts,
    the Mighty One of Israel:
“Ah, I will get relief from my enemies
    and avenge myself on my foes.
25 I will turn my hand against you
    and will smelt away your dross as with lye
    and remove all your alloy.
26 And I will restore your judges as at the first,
    and your counselors as at the beginning.
Afterward you shall be called the city of righteousness,
    the faithful city.”

27 Zion shall be redeemed by justice,
    and those in her who repent, by righteousness.
28 But rebels and sinners shall be broken together,
    and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks
    that you desired;
and you shall blush for the gardens
    that you have chosen.
30 For you shall be like an oak
    whose leaf withers,
    and like a garden without water.
31 And the strong shall become tinder,
    and his work a spark,
and both of them shall burn together,
    with none to quench them.

 

Another witness to consider.

 

Amos 9:5 The Lord God of hosts,
he who touches the earth and it melts,
    and all who dwell in it mourn,
and all of it rises like the Nile,
    and sinks again, like the Nile of Egypt;
6 who builds his upper chambers in the heavens
    and founds his vault upon the earth;
who calls for the waters of the sea
    and pours them out upon the surface of the earth—
the Lord is his name.

7 “Are you not like the Cushites to me,
    O people of Israel?” declares the Lord.
“Did I not bring up Israel from the land of Egypt,
    and the Philistines from Caphtor and the Syrians from Kir?
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom,
    and I will destroy it from the surface of the ground,
    except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,”
declares the Lord.

9 “For behold, I will command,
    and shake the house of Israel among all the nations
as one shakes with a sieve,
    but no pebble shall fall to the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword,
    who say, ‘Disaster shall not overtake or meet us.’

 

Chapter 9 of Amos is all about the destruction of Israel, but you should notice it is not all the people, only the sinners.  Oh, and an important piece that follows this, Israel's restoration.

 

Amos 9:11 “In that day I will raise up
    the booth of David that is fallen
and repair its breaches,
    and raise up its ruins
    and rebuild it as in the days of old,
12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom
    and all the nations who are called by my name,”
    declares the Lord who does this.

13 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord,
    “when the plowman shall overtake the reaper
    and the treader of grapes him who sows the seed;
the mountains shall drip sweet wine,
    and all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel,
    and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine,
    and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant them on their land,
    and they shall never again be uprooted
    out of the land that I have given them,”
says the Lord your God.

 

Notice how it has to be rebuilt?  It's mentioned several times in this passage alone.  Of course the OT prophets had plenty to say on the matter, you know, all those prophets who Jesus put the blood on Jerusalem?  You can keep talking in circles around this fact all you like, but it won't bring you any closer to the truth.  Another thing that you are completely mistaken on, was your claim that what Jesus said was only referencing the past.  Here is more from the same conversation.

 

Matthew 23:34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

 

See there in verse 34, that is talking about things yet to come, not the past.  Your claim this was only referencing the past is way off base.

 

On 5/3/2018 at 4:33 PM, WilliamL said:

But these verses cannot apply at all to Jerusalem in the End Times, nor to the world, because numerous Scriptures tell us things like this:

Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up [17 to Jerusalem] from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

On 5/1/2018 at 1:15 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Tell us about this {Zechariah 14}

 

It is not the city that exists today, hence why Amos and the other OT prophets tell us that the land is rebuilt.  Zechariah is speaking of the geographical location, not the modern city which will be destroyed as God foretold it would long ago.  Judgement begins there, that is what prophecy states, read Amos chapter 9 for clarification.  You should also note, that the millennial temple described by Ezekiel is too large for the current temple mount, way too large for it.

 

On 5/3/2018 at 4:33 PM, WilliamL said:

So then what is the meaning of Rev. 18:24? Simply that all who lead in a rebellion against the Lord and his commandments – beginning with Nimrod – become responsible for all the blood of the righteous. Jesus told Jerusalem's religious leaders of his day,

 

He most certainly did not, as the verse posted clearly shows, Jesus put the blood of the righteous and the prophets on Jerusalem.  This is an outright false claim that flies in the face of the scripture posted.

 

On 5/1/2018 at 11:50 AM, WilliamL said:

Then maybe I might take the time to answer your questions, which I believe I have already sufficiently done.

 

I am quite sure you won't, and you definitely haven't even made an effort to this point.  You keep trying to talk around what Jesus said, but offer no explanation, and not a single bit of scripture to support your symbolic claims for Rome.  I'll give you a few examples of what constitutes actual evidence of symbolization.

 

Revelation 17: 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality.

 

Jeremiah 4:30 And you, O desolate one,
what do you mean that you dress in scarlet,
    that you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold,
    that you enlarge your eyes with paint?
In vain you beautify yourself.
    Your lovers despise you;
    they seek your life.
31 For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor,
    anguish as of one giving birth to her first child,
the cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath,
    stretching out her hands,
“Woe is me! I am fainting before murderers.”

[WilliamL]

On 5/3/2018 at 2:33 PM, WilliamL said:

Rev. 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 …no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more in you… 23 And the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in you…”

But these verses cannot apply at all to Jerusalem in the End Times, nor to the world, because numerous Scriptures tell us things like this:

Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up [17 to Jerusalem] from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Joel 3:20 But Judah shall abide forever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

 

On 5/11/2018 at 9:45 AM, wingnut- said:

Notice how it has to be rebuilt?

"...that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 …no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more in you… 23 And the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in you…”

A city that shall be found no more at all is to be rebuilt? That is quite a trick.

On 5/11/2018 at 9:45 AM, wingnut- said:

For starters, the entire earth is to be destroyed by fire.

The entire earth is to be destroyed, yet people will still live upon it afterward? That is quite a trick.

 

On 5/11/2018 at 9:45 AM, wingnut- said:

3 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Peter here is speaking about the END of the Millennium, and the new heavens and earth of Rev. 21; not the end of this current age. Jerusalem and every other place will certainly be destroyed then, but that has nothing to do with the Babylon of Rev. 17-18.

You have provided no evidence at all to my challenge to you to cite verses "from the Scriptures ... that Jerusalem will be utterly destroyed by fire in the End Times."  (Let alone any evidence Jerusalem "shall be found no more at all.")  The verses you cite from Isaiah, Amos, and 2 Peter say no such thing.

Edited May 14, 2018 by WilliamL

[wingnut-]

On 5/14/2018 at 11:44 AM, WilliamL said:

"...that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 …no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more in you… 23 And the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in you…”

A city that shall be found no more at all is to be rebuilt? That is quite a trick.

 

It will no longer be an unfaithful city, but I guess the understanding is lost on you.  Take note of verse 23 since you bolded it, maybe it will shed some light on things for you. 

 

Revelation 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,

 

Since Jesus will be reigning there for the millennium, no lamp is necessary.  And just in case you don't get this part, He does not reign from Rome.

 

On 5/14/2018 at 11:44 AM, WilliamL said:

The entire earth is to be destroyed, yet people will still live upon it afterward? That is quite a trick.

 

Yeah, as tricky as the earth being destroyed by water once before and people living on it afterward, who would have thought that was possible?  

 

On 5/14/2018 at 11:44 AM, WilliamL said:

Peter here is speaking about the END of the Millennium, and the new heavens and earth of Rev. 21; not the end of this current age.

 

I guess Paul was mistaken then when he wrote the day of the Lord is the day in which Jesus comes back and gathers people then?

 

On 5/14/2018 at 11:44 AM, WilliamL said:

You have provided no evidence at all to my challenge to you to cite verses "from the Scriptures ... that Jerusalem will be utterly destroyed by fire in the End Times."  (Let alone any evidence Jerusalem "shall be found no more at all.")  The verses you cite from Isaiah, Amos, and 2 Peter say no such thing.

 

The idea is that I point you in the right direction, not post entire chapters.  If you had bothered to read them, then you would see that this is precisely speaking to the end times.  Here is one such example.

 

Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
    they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
    they shall become like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
    you shall eat the good of the land;
20 but if you refuse and rebel,
    you shall be eaten by the sword;
    for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

 

This doesn't occur until they look upon the one they pierced, at least for those knowledgeable regarding what the prophets said.  What is clear, is that you still continue to avoid the real issue at hand, which dismantles your entire theory.  You cannot put the blood of the righteous and the prophets on any other city when Jesus Himself already proclaimed that blood on Jerusalem, it is just that simple.

[WilliamL]

On 5/17/2018 at 8:07 AM, wingnut- said:

On 5/14/2018 at 9:44 AM, WilliamL said:

"...that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 …no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more in you… 23 And the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in you…”

A city that shall be found no more at all is to be rebuilt? That is quite a trick.

 

It will no longer be an unfaithful city, but I guess the understanding is lost on you.  Take note of verse 23 since you bolded it, maybe it will shed some light on things for you. 

 

Revelation 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,

 

Since Jesus will be reigning there for the millennium, no lamp is necessary.  And just in case you don't get this part, He does not reign from Rome.

The New Jerusalem of Rev. 21 takes place AFTER the millennium, when the new heavens and earth have been created. You place it DURING the millennium. Guess that is why you call yourself Wingnut. Bye.

[HAZARD]

 

Wingnut wrote;

"Revelation 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,"

 

The city only is referred to here. There will be light from the sun and planets in the earth outside the city (Gen. 8:22; Ps. 89:2-3, 29, 35-37; Jer. 31:35-36; Isa. 30:26).

[wingnut-]

On 5/22/2018 at 1:55 PM, WilliamL said:

The New Jerusalem of Rev. 21 takes place AFTER the millennium, when the new heavens and earth have been created. You place it DURING the millennium. Guess that is why you call yourself Wingnut. Bye.

 

As has been the case throughout this discussion, you simply fail to apply truths that scripture teaches, which remain applicable.  From the time of His resurrection and forever more, His glory shines.  When He appears to the disciples, when He appears to Paul, when He returns to earth, etc.  At no point, does scripture ever suggest or even hint that His glory diminishes.

Once again, you fail to address the issue at hand, and instead insert a clumsy attempt at a personal attack which makes about as much sense as everything else you have posted.  When I chose my username here, like everyone else, it was not done in a committee, just me.