Assurance of Heaven

[Guest shiloh357]

Assurance of Heaven

 

 

I.                    Assurance of Heaven is Based on the Authority of Scripture

A.    False Teaching about Heaven is Rooted in a Rejection of the Authority of Scripture

1.      Beware of People Who Feel the Need to re-interpret the Bible for You.

2.      Beware of People Who want to Make You Think that They Alone Have the Truth and Preachers and Bible Teachers are Conspiring to Hide the Truth from You.

3.      Beware of People Who Try to Convince You that the Bible has been Changed and that the Bibles We Have Today Do Not Say What was Originally Written.

4.      Beware of Anyone Who Tries to Diminish Your Hope of Heaven or tries to Diminish the Horror of Hell.

 

B.     Assurance of Salvation/Heaven is a New Testament Doctrine

1.      Jesus

(a)   John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(b)   John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

(c)   John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 

(d)   John 10: 27-29 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

2.      Paul Taught the Assurance of Salvation/Heaven

(a)   Rom. 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 

(b)   Rom. 8: 38-39 - For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(c)   Hebrews 10: 21-23 - And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;).

 

3.      Assurance of salvation is assurance of Heaven because Heaven is promised to those who are saved.   So while those verses don't mention Heaven, they promise salvation and by extension, promise Heaven. The first thing that some false teachers will do is try to rob you of any assurance at all.  A lack of assurance is paralyzing and so many people have been shipwrecked by cults that have as a chief doctrine, that you cannot know on this side of the grave what will happen to you when you die. We can know what will happen and we can know what will not happen to us when we die.  God has not left us in the dark about what awaits us if we know Jesus, or if we do not know Jesus. 

 

II.                 What Does NOT Happen when We Die

A.    No Soul Sleep

1.      Between death and resurrection there is no soul sleep.  The SDAs teach it and the JW’s teach it, and some others teach it who are confused.  The Bible however, does not say anything about soul sleep.  They use John 11:11 to support this doctrine. Jesus referred to Lazarus as “sleeping” and then later in v. 15 Jesus had to clarify what he meant, that Lazarus was dead.  If Lazarus were really sleeping, if his soul was just in a state of sleep, then Jesus would not have had to issue that clarification.

2.      They also use I Thess. 4: 13 to support that doctrine. “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.”  But when Paul uses the word “sleep” in v. 13, he is using it as a metaphor for death. The Bible often uses “sleep” as a metaphor for death.   If not, then the Bible would be contradicting itself.    Here is what I mean:

3.      Luke 15:7, 10 says: “I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.”  “Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.”   Those verses don’t say the angels are rejoicing.  It says that there is rejoicing in the presence of angels.  The angels don’t understand salvation and what it is.   The only person who can rejoice over the salvation of sinners is a sinner himself who has been saved and knows something about it. It’s only the save who rejoice.   The point is that if they are asleep, then how can there be rejoicing by the residents of Heaven over those being saved on earth?

4.      Revelation 6 talks about the opening of the seals on the book of 5:1.   In verse 9 it says, “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  It says “souls,” not bodies.  These are people who had lived during the Tribulation got saved during that time and were martyred because of their testimony of Jesus.   Verses 10-11 say, “And they cried with a loud voice, saying, how long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

5.      Two things about these passages:  These are not people who are asleep. They are speaking to the Lord, they are given white robes and are told to wait until fellow believers had been martyred in accordance with God’s purposes and plan.    So, they are clearly not asleep.  This will answer, at least partially, the question that I get a lot about Heaven: “Do people who have gone to Heaven know what is happening here on earth?”  Do they know everything?  I cannot say, but they know when someone get’s saved, and they will know what is happening on earth to some degree during the Tribulation.  They knew what happening and that justice had not yet been meted out.

6.      Notice finally Eph. 3:114-16: For this cause, I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

 

B.     No Purgatory

1.      There are those who teach that you don’t go to Heaven when you die, but to a place called “Purgatory.” This is a Catholic teaching that has no basis in Scripture.  In Purgatory you are purified from what they call “venial” sins.  The RCC has two categories of sin: Venial and Mortal.  Mortal sins are almost a sure ticket to Hell unless you have done some serious penance, but most of the time mortal sins will send you to hell, particularly if you never made penance.  

2.      The purpose of Purgatory is to cleanse you of the venial sins that you didn’t get taken care of in life.  Purgatory is a milder and temporary form of Hell, essentially. 

3.      This demonstrates that in the RCC there is no real doctrine of the complete payment of sin by Jesus on the cross.  You still have to pay for sin in life through penance and then pay for the rest in Purgatory.   The death of Jesus on the cross is insufficient to that end, in their doctrine.

4.      But more to the point, we see nothing in the Scriptures about an intermediary location between Heaven and the grave.

 

C.     No, Universal Purification

1.      There is also the teaching of the universalists who believe that everyone eventually goes to Heaven, but they have to Hell to be purified.  This is similar to Purgatory, but universalism teaches that Hell, not Purgatory is where evil people are purified so that even Hitler will one day be saved and go to Heaven. 

2.      Most of us will have to go to Hell to be purified of our sins before we are perfect enough to go to Heaven, and this applies to good people and to the worst of the worst.  It is a post-evangelical, heretical teaching that also devalues Jesus and diminishes the horror of Hell.

 

III.              What is Between Death and Resurrection?

A.    For the Believer

1.      The first thing we know for the believer is that when we die we will be with Jesus.  Where is Jesus?

(a)   Heb. 12:2 says, “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

(b)   Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God the Father: “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Act 7:55-56)

(c)   Jesus said, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” (Rev. 3:21)  Jesus is in Heaven where God the Father is.

 

2.      We have a temporary heavenly body being prepared for us. 

(a)   II Cor. 5:1 says, “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”  Why would we need a Heavenly body being prepared for us if we are going to sleep until the resurrection and get a resurrected earthly body?   Why prepare a body for us to have in Heaven if we are not going to Heaven?

(b)   Let’s read the rest of that passage: “For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” (2Co 5:2-8)

(c)   Something else Paul said to the Philippian believers: “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. (Php 1:21-24) If you are just going to die and stay in the grave, how is that gain, how is that better?

 

3.      We will not be disembodied spirits when we die.   In fact, that people who go to Hell will not be disembodied, either.  The Bible doesn’t go into as much explanation about what kind of body sinners will have in Hell, but they will be in torment, agony, real pain.  We have a body prepared for us in Heaven. Your loved ones that have passed away have a body right now in Heaven that they are enjoying until the resurrection, that was prepared for them from the very moment they were saved. 

4.      That by the way, exposes the folly of people claiming they have seen the spirits of loved ones that have passed away.  No one saved or not, is a ghost or spirit. They go to either Heaven or Hell and they have bodies that can either feel the bite of Hell or the bliss of Heaven.

5.      There is nothing between death and the resurrection for the believer except eternity with Jesus.  The minute you close your eyes in death, three nano-seconds will not pass before you open your eyes in Heaven.  All of the biblical data tells us that we immediately go to Heaven when we die. 

 

B.     For the Unsaved

1.      But happens to the unbeliever?   Many theories have arisen to mitigate the horror of Hell.   Hell is the immediate consequence of choosing continued separation from God and die in that condition.  Hell is not their final location; they will go to the Lake of Fire, which the Bible refers to as the second death and it is an eternal condition.  All of the biblical data tells us that the Lake of Fire will not be a temporary thing. It is as eternal as New Heavens and New Earth.

2.      The day of judgment isn’t, contrary to how many in the world think, when God decides who is saved and who is not.  It will be more accurately, a day of sentencing.  On the day of judgment, Hell and Satan and the Beast and false prophet and everyone who rejected Jesus will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

3.      Some teach that Hell/The Lake of Fire will be temporary that those who are there are simply destroyed into extinction.  These false teachers cannot accept an eternity where people are in conscious agony, but that is what the Bible says. 

4.      Rejecting Jesus is a decision with eternal consequences. It’s not the case that God is punishing anyone eternally for finite sins.  Hell is not a punishment for sin.   Jesus already bore that punishment.  It is consequence of rejecting Jesus’ payment.  That’s what makes it so tragic.  Jesus paid for everything.  He bore all of the punishment, so in the strictest sense, Hell is not a place of punishment per se, but a place of judgment.  That is what is between death and resurrection for unsaved.

 

What happens to you between death and the resurrection is determined by what you do with Jesus Christ.  It’s not determined by what church you belong to or how good you live.  It determined by what you do with Christ.   Jesus is the door to Heaven.  He is the only way.  Acts 4:12 says, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2018 by shiloh357

[Retrobyter]

On 4/5/2018 at 4:08 AM, shiloh357 said:

Assurance of Heaven

 

 

I.                    Assurance of Heaven is Based on the Authority of Scripture

A.    False Teaching about Heaven is Rooted in a Rejection of the Authority of Scripture

1.      Beware of People Who Feel the Need to re-interpret the Bible for You.

2.      Beware of People Who want to Make You Think that They Alone Have the Truth and Preachers and Bible Teachers are Conspiring to Hide the Truth from You.

3.      Beware of People Who Try to Convince You that the Bible has been Changed and that the Bibles We Have Today Do Not Say What was Originally Written.

4.      Beware of Anyone Who Tries to Diminish Your Hope of Heaven or tries to Diminish the Horror of Hell.

 

B.     Assurance of Salvation/Heaven is a New Testament Doctrine

1.      Jesus

(a)   John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(b)   John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

(c)   John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 

(d)   John 10: 27-29 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

2.      Paul Taught the Assurance of Salvation/Heaven

(a)   Rom. 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 

(b)   Rom. 8: 38-39 - For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(c)   Hebrews 10: 21-23 - And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;).

 

3.      Assurance of salvation is assurance of Heaven because Heaven is promised to those who are saved.   So while those verses don't mention Heaven, they promise salvation and by extension, promise Heaven. The first thing that some false teachers will do is try to rob you of any assurance at all.  A lack of assurance is paralyzing and so many people have been shipwrecked by cults that have as a chief doctrine, that you cannot know on this side of the grave what will happen to you when you die. We can know what will happen and we can know what will not happen to us when we die.  God has not left us in the dark about what awaits us if we know Jesus, or if we do not know Jesus. 

 

II.                 What Does NOT Happen when We Die

A.    No Soul Sleep

1.      Between death and resurrection there is no soul sleep.  The SDAs teach it and the JW’s teach it, and some others teach it who are confused.  The Bible however, does not say anything about soul sleep.  They use John 11:11 to support this doctrine. Jesus referred to Lazarus as “sleeping” and then later in v. 15 Jesus had to clarify what he meant, that Lazarus was dead.  If Lazarus were really sleeping, if his soul was just in a state of sleep, then Jesus would not have had to issue that clarification.

2.      They also use I Thess. 4: 13 to support that doctrine. “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.”  But when Paul uses the word “sleep” in v. 13, he is using it as a metaphor for death. The Bible often uses “sleep” as a metaphor for death.   If not, then the Bible would be contradicting itself.    Here is what I mean:

3.      Luke 15:7, 10 says: “I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.”  “Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.”   Those verses don’t say the angels are rejoicing.  It says that there is rejoicing in the presence of angels.  The angels don’t understand salvation and what it is.   The only person who can rejoice over the salvation of sinners is a sinner himself who has been saved and knows something about it. It’s only the save who rejoice.   The point is that if they are asleep, then how can there be rejoicing by the residents of Heaven over those being saved on earth?

4.      Revelation 6 talks about the opening of the seals on the book of 5:1.   In verse 9 it says, “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  It says “souls,” not bodies.  These are people who had lived during the Tribulation got saved during that time and were martyred because of their testimony of Jesus.   Verses 10-11 say, “And they cried with a loud voice, saying, how long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

5.      Two things about these passages:  These are not people who are asleep. They are speaking to the Lord, they are given white robes and are told to wait until fellow believers had been martyred in accordance with God’s purposes and plan.    So, they are clearly not asleep.  This will answer, at least partially, the question that I get a lot about Heaven: “Do people who have gone to Heaven know what is happening here on earth?”  Do they know everything?  I cannot say, but they know when someone get’s saved, and they will know what is happening on earth to some degree during the Tribulation.  They knew what happening and that justice had not yet been meted out.

6.      Notice finally Eph. 3:114-16: For this cause, I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

 

B.     No Purgatory

1.      There are those who teach that you don’t go to Heaven when you die, but to a place called “Purgatory.” This is a Catholic teaching that has no basis in Scripture.  In Purgatory you are purified from what they call “venial” sins.  The RCC has two categories of sin: Venial and Mortal.  Mortal sins are almost a sure ticket to Hell unless you have done some serious penance, but most of the time mortal sins will send you to hell, particularly if you never made penance.  

2.      The purpose of Purgatory is to cleanse you of the venial sins that you didn’t get taken care of in life.  Purgatory is a milder and temporary form of Hell, essentially. 

3.      This demonstrates that in the RCC there is no real doctrine of the complete payment of sin by Jesus on the cross.  You still have to pay for sin in life through penance and then pay for the rest in Purgatory.   The death of Jesus on the cross is insufficient to that end, in their doctrine.

4.      But more to the point, we see nothing in the Scriptures about an intermediary location between Heaven and the grave.

 

C.     No, Universal Purification

1.      There is also the teaching of the universalists who believe that everyone eventually goes to Heaven, but they have to Hell to be purified.  This is similar to Purgatory, but universalism teaches that Hell, not Purgatory is where evil people are purified so that even Hitler will one day be saved and go to Heaven. 

2.      Most of us will have to go to Hell to be purified of our sins before we are perfect enough to go to Heaven, and this applies to good people and to the worst of the worst.  It is a post-evangelical, heretical teaching that also devalues Jesus and diminishes the horror of Hell.

 

III.              What is Between Death and Resurrection?

A.    For the Believer

1.      The first thing we know for the believer is that when we die we will be with Jesus.  Where is Jesus?

(a)   Heb. 12:2 says, “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

(b)   Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God the Father: “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Act 7:55-56)

(c)   Jesus said, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” (Rev. 3:21)  Jesus is in Heaven where God the Father is.

 

2.      We have a temporary heavenly body being prepared for us. 

(a)   II Cor. 5:1 says, “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”  Why would we need a Heavenly body being prepared for us if we are going to sleep until the resurrection and get a resurrected earthly body?   Why prepare a body for us to have in Heaven if we are not going to Heaven?

(b)   Let’s read the rest of that passage: “For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” (2Co 5:2-8)

(c)   Something else Paul said to the Philippian believers: “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. (Php 1:21-24) If you are just going to die and stay in the grave, how is that gain, how is that better?

 

3.      We will not be disembodied spirits when we die.   In fact, that people who go to Hell will not be disembodied, either.  The Bible doesn’t go into as much explanation about what kind of body sinners will have in Hell, but they will be in torment, agony, real pain.  We have a body prepared for us in Heaven. Your loved ones that have passed away have a body right now in Heaven that they are enjoying until the resurrection, that was prepared for them from the very moment they were saved. 

4.      That by the way, exposes the folly of people claiming they have seen the spirits of loved ones that have passed away.  No one saved or not, is a ghost or spirit. They go to either Heaven or Hell and they have bodies that can either feel the bite of Hell or the bliss of Heaven.

5.      There is nothing between death and the resurrection for the believer except eternity with Jesus.  The minute you close your eyes in death, three nano-seconds will not pass before you open your eyes in Heaven.  All of the biblical data tells us that we immediately go to Heaven when we die. 

 

B.     For the Unsaved

1.      But happens to the unbeliever?   Many theories have arisen to mitigate the horror of Hell.   Hell is the immediate consequence of choosing continued separation from God and die in that condition.  Hell is not their final location; they will go to the Lake of Fire, which the Bible refers to as the second death and it is an eternal condition.  All of the biblical data tells us that the Lake of Fire will not be a temporary thing. It is as eternal as New Heavens and New Earth.

2.      The day of judgment isn’t, contrary to how many in the world think, when God decides who is saved and who is not.  It will be more accurately, a day of sentencing.  On the day of judgment, Hell and Satan and the Beast and false prophet and everyone who rejected Jesus will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

3.      Some teach that Hell/The Lake of Fire will be temporary that those who are there are simply destroyed into extinction.  These false teachers cannot accept an eternity where people are in conscious agony, but that is what the Bible says. 

4.      Rejecting Jesus is a decision with eternal consequences. It’s not the case that God is punishing anyone eternally for finite sins.  Hell is not a punishment for sin.   Jesus already bore that punishment.  It is consequence of rejecting Jesus’ payment.  That’s what makes it so tragic.  Jesus paid for everything.  He bore all of the punishment, so in the strictest sense, Hell is not a place of punishment per se, but a place of judgment.  That is what is between death and resurrection for unsaved.

 

What happens to you between death and the resurrection is determined by what you do with Jesus Christ.  It’s not determined by what church you belong to or how good you live.  It determined by what you do with Christ.   Jesus is the door to Heaven.  He is the only way.  Acts 4:12 says, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” 

 

 

Shalom, shiloh357.

Well, this is all very interesting, but not very helpful. See, the problem is a CONFUSION between "going to Heaven" and "acquiring Salvation" (which, again, is the WRONG WORD; you mean "JUSTIFICATION by God"). This confusion leads one to think that "acquiring God's Justification" is the SAME as "going to Heaven," but that's NOT TRUE! They are two VERY different things!

Regarding "God's Justification of an individual," you're "preaching to the choir!" I TOTALLY get it and have absolutely NO problem with that part of what you argue. I'm talking about the "going to Heaven after one dies" part with which I can't agree!

See, a person consists of his/her body and the ability to breathe. If the person can no longer breathe air, then he/she has become a dead body - a corpse! While the person can breathe air, he/she has a breath - a "spirit," and he/she is an "air-breathing creature" - a "soul."

Look at Genesis 2:7 once again:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It does NOT say that "the LORD God formed the body of the man"; He formed the "MAN of (from) the dust of the ground." The MAN had nostrils into which God breathed the breath of life! And, the "MAN became a living air-breathing creature" (which is what "soul" means)!

Frankly, I don't believe in "soul-sleep," either. I believe in "soul-annihilation!" When we die, we CEASE to be air-breathing creatures; we CEASE being "souls!" Our dead bodies, our corpses, go into the ground, and we await the RESURRECTION!

That's one point on the line; the other point on the line that defines the line itself is Yeshua`s incarnation:

John 1:1-14 (KJV) 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sentto bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 

Notice that the passage of Scripture does NOT say that "the Word took on a body of flesh." It says that "the Word was MADE flesh." So, again, the Word (who was indeed God), the Second Adam, BECAME flesh!

Later, when Yeshua` died on the instrument of execution called a "cross," we read,

Luke 23:46 (KJV)

46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Many other versions say that last phrase should be translated as "He breathed His last." His "last" what? His "last breath!" His "last spirit!"

We also read in David's prophecy of Yeshua`s death,

Psalm 16:1-11 (KJV) 

1 {Michtam of David.}

Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.
2 O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;
3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.
4 Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.
5 The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.
6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.
7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.
8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there arepleasures for evermore.

It doesn't say "neither wilt thou suffer the body of thine Holy One to see corruption"; it says "neither wilt thou suffer thine HOLY ONE to see corruption!" How can the Person of Yeshua` "see corruption?" If He, as a corpse, were to decay!

When one understands that "hell" here is the Hebrew word "sh'owl" which means the "grave," one will also see that the phrase "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell" means "thou wilt not leave my air-breathing body (now resurrected and once again alive) in the grave."

So, when one dies, he or she no longer is a "soul" - an "air-breathing body." He or she becomes a CORPSE, and we await the RESURRECTION! The beauty of the Resurrection is found in the fact that NO ONE remains intact in the grave! So, whether one is buried at sea (and the fish eat him or her), one is cremeated (and only the ashes remain), or one is eaten by the animals and birds and have become a part of their bodies, make NO difference in the long run: Resurrection is a process of CREATION! God performs the creative acts necessary to bring a person back from oblivion and make him a living "air-breathing body" again - a living "soul" again! God REMEMBERS us and He lovingly RE-CREATES us from that memory!

So, we are to anticipate the RESURRECTION, not "going to Heaven when we die!"

[Guest shiloh357]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, this is all very interesting, but not very helpful. See, the problem is a CONFUSION between "going to Heaven" and "acquiring Salvation" (which, again, is the WRONG WORD; you mean "JUSTIFICATION by God"). This confusion leads one to think that "acquiring God's Justification" is the SAME as "going to Heaven," but that's NOT TRUE! They are two VERY different things!

No, I did not say that salvation and going to Heaven are the same thing.  I am saying that our assurance of Heaven is rooted in our assurance of salvation.   I know I am going to Heaven where Jesus is, because I have assurance of salvation. 

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I'm talking about the "going to Heaven after one dies" part with which I can't agree!

The difference being that I believe the Bible and you don’t.  

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See, a person consists of his/her body and the ability to breathe. If the person can no longer breathe air, then he/she has become a dead body - a corpse! While the person can breathe air, he/she has a breath - a "spirit," and he/she is an "air-breathing creature" - a "soul."

Look at Genesis 2:7 once again:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It does NOT say that "the LORD God formed the body of the man"; He formed the "MAN of (from) the dust of the ground." The MAN had nostrils into which God breathed the breath of life! And, the "MAN became a living air-breathing creature" (which is what "soul" means)!

 

No, the Bible teaches that we are a trichotomy. Man is  spirit soul and body:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Th 5:23)

 

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)

 

Soul and spirit cannot, obviously, be the same thing if they can be divided, one from the other.  So, no, you are wrong.   Man is not just a soul and a body.

  

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Frankly, I don't believe in "soul-sleep," either. I believe in "soul-annihilation!" When we die, we CEASE to be air-breathing creatures; we CEASE being "souls!" Our dead bodies, our corpses, go into the ground, and we await the RESURRECTION!

No, that is not true, either.  

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(1Th 4:13-17)

What’s important about that passage is that when Jesus is appearing, He is bringing with Him those who have already died.  That is impossible if they and their soul were annihilated and they have no spirit, as you claim.   He is bringing them with Him and their bodies will be raised incorruptible and will be reunited with their spirit.  They will rise first and then we who are still alive at that time, will be changed, transformed.

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That's one point on the line; the other point on the line that defines the line itself is Yeshua`s incarnation:

John 1:1-14 (KJV) 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sentto bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 

Notice that the passage of Scripture does NOT say that "the Word took on a body of flesh." It says that "the Word was MADE flesh." So, again, the Word (who was indeed God), the Second Adam, BECAME flesh!

 

 

LOL, that is an attempt to create a distinction without a difference.   Jesus was made flesh, or He became flesh.  Two ways of saying the same thing in modern vernacular.   

The Word (Jesus) pre-existed His incarnation and voluntarily became a human being.  He was God in human flesh.  He didn’t cease being God when He was incarnated.

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Later, when Yeshua` died on the instrument of execution called a "cross," we read,

Luke 23:46 (KJV)

46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Many other versions say that last phrase should be translated as "He breathed His last." His "last" what? His "last breath!" His "last spirit!"

We also read in David's prophecy of Yeshua`s death,

Psalm 16:1-11 (KJV) 

1 {Michtam of David.}

Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.
2 O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;
3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.
4 Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.
5 The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.
6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.
7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.
8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there arepleasures for evermore.

It doesn't say "neither wilt thou suffer the body of thine Holy One to see corruption"; it says "neither wilt thou suffer thine HOLY ONE to see corruption!" How can the Person of Yeshua` "see corruption?" If He, as a corpse, were to decay!

When one understands that "hell" here is the Hebrew word "sh'owl" which means the "grave," one will also see that the phrase "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell" means "thou wilt not leave my air-breathing body (now resurrected and once again alive) in the grave."

So, when one dies, he or she no longer is a "soul" - an "air-breathing body." He or she becomes a CORPSE, and we await the RESURRECTION! 

 

The Bible says that Jesus gave up His spirit, so I am just going to believe the Bible and not your attempt to get around the Bible with your unskilled and unlearned “interpretation.”  Nothing the Bible says about the resurrection of Jesus proves your point.

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So, we are to anticipate the RESURRECTION, not "going to Heaven when we die!"

 

Those who believe the Bible and know Jesus as personal Savior and Lord anticipate Heaven.   No one else does.  The hope of Heaven is unique to true  Bible-believing, born again Christians.   No one outside of Christ and salvation has that hope.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, I did not say that salvation and going to Heaven are the same thing.  I am saying that our assurance of Heaven is rooted in our assurance of salvation.   I know I am going to Heaven where Jesus is, because I have assurance of salvation. 

Shabbat shalom, shiloh357.

You may not have said it directly, but it was (and still is) implied in the way you insist on "going to Heaven" and its "assurance of Heaven." We have plenty of Scriptural proof in an assurance of God's justification as a means by which God forgives us of our sins, but not so much about "going to Heaven when we die." To the contrary, I can't find a SINGLE Scripture verse or passage that claims we go to "Heaven" after death. There's something better that you haven't seen.

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The difference being that I believe the Bible and you don’t.  

Oh, don't go there. I believe the Bible WHOLLY, particularly as it is written in the original languages, but it's WRONG for you to accuse another whom you don't really know. That's what they did in the early church back in the 100s thru the 300s A.D. to the point that they would KILL the "heretics" and destroy all the "heretical" writings they could find, thinking they were doing God a favor! That was certainly NOT "Christian!"

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, the Bible teaches that we are a trichotomy. Man is  spirit soul and body:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Th 5:23)

 

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)

 

Soul and spirit cannot, obviously, be the same thing if they can be divided, one from the other.  So, no, you are wrong.   Man is not just a soul and a body.

 

You haven't investigated these verses in the Greek, have you? Or, at least not with an open mind, that is.

Paul's comment to the Thessalonikans was that they would be PRESERVED BLAMELESS unto the Coming of the Messiah Yeshua`, both in their words ("spirit" = breath), their life (their air-breathing body) and in their health (the body itself). He wasn't assuring that they WOULD remain unto the Second Coming, but he was HOPING AND PRAYING that they would survive 'til then. 

Hebrews 4:12 is a little more ... disconcerting to take it in how it was presented. The phrase "piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit" is the Greek phrase "kai diiknoumenos achri merismou psuchees kai pneumatos" meaning "penetrating even as-far-as [the]-division of-air-breathing-body and breath." He was saying that the Word of God was so penetrating as to separate one's BREATHER from his or her BREATH, i.e., if and when necessary, penetrating enough to KILL the person who goes against God's Word!

The Bible is NOT teaching that we are a trichotomy. That was a reactionary interpretation based on the fact that GOD is a Trinity.

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 No, that is not true, either. 

 

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(1Th 4:13-17)

What’s important about that passage is that when Jesus is appearing, He is bringing with Him those who have already died.  That is impossible if they and their soul were annihilated and they have no spirit, as you claim.   He is bringing them with Him and their bodies will be raised incorruptible and will be reunited with their spirit.  They will rise first and then we who are still alive at that time, will be changed, transformed.

Ah, but when is God bringing those who "sleep in Jesus (Yeshua`)," before or AFTER their Resurrection? If, as you say, He is bringing them "from Heaven" FOR their resurrection, then you are correct. BUT, if He is bringing them with Him AFTER they are resurrected, as a growing army, then you have missed the point of the passage!

And, for those who believe in the pretribulational rapture theory, I must point out ... AGAIN ... that, although we meet the Lord (the Master) in the air among the clouds and although from that point on we will always be with the Lord (the Master), it DOES NOT SAY where we will be going next! If He goes back to "Heaven," then we will go with Him, too. BUT, if, having RETURNED to earth, He goes on to Israel, then that's where WE will be going, too!

But, you ARE right: "That (Jesus bringing with Him [from Heaven] those who have already died) is impossible if they and their soul were annihilated and they have no spirit, as you claim." Their air-breathing bodies (not necessarily their breathless bodies) ARE annihilated and they have no breath before the Resurrection!

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LOL, that is an attempt to create a distinction without a difference.   Jesus was made flesh, or He became flesh.  Two ways of saying the same thing in modern vernacular.   

The Word (Jesus) pre-existed His incarnation and voluntarily became a human being.  He was God in human flesh.  He didn’t cease being God when He was incarnated.

You're right, "Yeshua` was MADE flesh" and "Yeshua` BECAME flesh" ARE two ways of saying the same thing. That's not what I was talking about. I'm saying that NEITHER ONE is the same as "the Word TOOK ON A BODY OF flesh!" He didn't PUT IT ON, like clothes! He BECAME flesh!

Regarding "The Word (Jesus) pre-existed His incarnation and voluntarily became a human being.  He was God in human flesh.  He didn’t cease being God when He was incarnated," I'm not going to debate you on this matter. I agree with you. He WAS INDEED God as human flesh, and that human flesh was named "Yeshua` = Ieesous = Jesus," and I know that He was indeed the VERY SAME PERSON AS GOD as He was in the Beginning of Creation. Let's let that be enough.

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The Bible says that Jesus gave up His spirit, so I am just going to believe the Bible and not your attempt to get around the Bible with your unskilled and unlearned “interpretation.”  Nothing the Bible says about the resurrection of Jesus proves your point.

"To give up one's spirit" = "to give up one's ghost" = "to give up one's breath" = "to breathe one's last." "Unskilled and unlearned"? Sounds like you're attacking the person instead of the problem when you say that, again. That's the ad hominem fallacy in logical proof. Ad hominem is Latin for "to [the] man," meaning that one is SHIFTING the argument toward the person instead of the topic.

ad ho·mi·nem

[ad hom-uh-nuhm -nem, ahd‐]

ADJECTIVE

1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.

2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

Here's what the Urban Dictionary has to say about it:

Ad hominem

An attack upon an opponent in order to discredit their arguement or opinion.  Ad hominems are used by immature and/or unintelligent people because they are unable to counter their opponent using logic and intelligence.

Person A: I think we should spend more money on environmental protection. 
Person B: You just think that because you’re a stupid tree-hugger. 

Person A: It is crucial that we facilitate adequate means to prevent degradation that would jeopardize the project. 
Person B: You think that just because you use big words makes you sound smart? Shut up you loser; you don't know what you're talking about.

Let's just agree to stay on topic.

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Those who believe the Bible and know Jesus as personal Savior and Lord anticipate Heaven.   No one else does.  The hope of Heaven is unique to true  Bible-believing, born again Christians.   No one outside of Christ and salvation has that hope.

Well, that's not quite true. Check out Heaven and Hell, According to Various Religions - Neatorama. Even the Greeks believed in the Elysian Fields, a form of Paradise!

I, too, am an example that proves you are not right. I believe the Bible and I know Yeshua` as my personal "Savior" and Lord, BUT I do NOT "anticipate Heaven." I anticipate the Resurrection, followed by the Millennium, followed by the Great White Throne Judgment, followed by the New Earth with its New Sky and the capital city, the New Jerusalem, descending from God out of the sky to the ground. All the descriptions of the New Jerusalem were "borrowed" by well-meaning Christians to describe "Heaven," but that is NOT what those describe! They describe the CITY!

[enoob57]

It is simple assurance as God Himself procured it through His Own Being and is nondependent upon anything created...
False assurance leads us away from dependence on God. Lk 18:18-30 
You either place all your belief in Jesus and His finished work and receive salvation or other and perish of presence...
         we, ourselves, become witnesses of His Life within Rom 6:1-14
         without reliance of creation elements to save us which is idolatry 1Pet 1:18-25

 

[Retrobyter]

15 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

No, it is not implied. That is the value that you want to assign to it. I never said that being saved and going to Heaven are the same thing.  I never even implied it.  

Well, people like you see what you want to see and twist and pervert the Bible, just like you do with my words in order to support your wacky ideas.

No, you don’t believe the Bible.  You believe, “The Bible according to Retrobyter.”   I have seen enough of your false teachings on this board to that.  I don’t have to know you.   I can tell from your posts that you’re not a real Bible believer.  No one who denies the deity of Jesus believes the Bible and no one who tries to cast shade on the promise and hope of Heaven is anything but a false teacher.   All TRUE Christians should avoid your teachings like the plague. 

I have researched those words in Greek and I can say that you don’t know what you’re talking about.  I researched them with an educated mind.  I actually have graduate level training in Greek and in the context, “pneuma” doesn’t mean, “breath.”  It refers to the rational spirit of man.  “Psuche” refers to the mind/soul and “Soma” refers to the body.   It’s really very clear.  

 

It’s the same with Heb. 4:12.  It is referring to inner spirit of man, not his physical “breath.”    Why would the Word of God need to divide asunder the breather from his breath?  That makes no sense.  What purpose does that serve? That is not how the words are being used in that verse.  You really don't know to interpret Greek very well at all.  And you are apparently a stranger to the concept of context. 

Ah, but when is God bringing those who "sleep in Jesus (Yeshua`)," before or AFTER their Resurrection? If, as you say, He is bringing them "from Heaven" FOR their resurrection, then you are correct. BUT, if He is bringing them with Him AFTER they are resurrected, as a growing army, then you have missed the point of the passage!

The point I made was that when Jesus appears in the air, He is bringing with Him, the spirits of those who have already died, who went to Heaven and their bodies will be raised incorruptible and they will be reunited with their bodies, but those are resurrected bodies.   We who are alive will be changed and we will follow them up to meet the Lord in the air.   This will happen in the “twinkling of an eye” according to Paul in I Cor. 15.   

The point I am making is that your claim that we die and are nothing but a dead corpse until the resurrection is not true because Jesus is bringing the spirits of those have died and went to Heaven with them when He appears to call us Home.

Yeah, I understand that.  No one is dumb enough to say that he wore a body like clothes.   The point is that Jesus was God in human form.   He took on a fleshly body and was fully human and was still God.

In context, he was giving up His “spirit” not simply physical breath.

You are unlearned and unskilled in the Scriptures.  That is just a fact, like it or not. 

What I said was that they don’t have the hope of Heaven that the we do.   They may have a doctrine of Heaven, even Islam has that, but they don’t have the same hope that we do.  That hope is totally unique to the Christian faith.

All Christians have the hope of Heaven.   Those who do not have that hope…   Well, there’s only one other place you go when you die. 

 

Well, brother, I've said all I'm going to say. I've done my best to explain my position, and you continue to attack me instead. I've hit a BRICK WALL, and it's time to move on.

God bless you, whatever you believe. It's relatively unimportant whether you want to believe that "Heaven is your home"; you will end up in the same New Jerusalem that I do. You can call that "Heaven" if you wish. Many do. I just know that it will be more concrete than many give it credit. The New Jerusalem will be our house, and the New Earth will be our "backyard."

I don't know whether we will ever meet in this lifetime, but I know that we will meet in the Resurrection. Again, God bless you.

[Guest shiloh357]

10 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, brother, I've said all I'm going to say. I've done my best to explain my position, and you continue to attack me instead. I've hit a BRICK WALL, and it's time to move on.

Yeah, it is.

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, Yowm said:

Why? Practically speaking they are synonymous...

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Rom 8:30)
 So far we have been predestined, then called, then justified and the next peomise is glorification (heaven).

Shalom, Yowm.

OR, could it be rather that we receive "glorification" when we are resurrected as "GLORIFIED bodies?" I believe that's much closer to the truth.

1 Corinthians 15:35-49 (KJV)

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thoufool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh isnot the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies (bodies above the sky), and bodies terrestrial (bodies above the earth or above the ground): but the glory of the celestial (above the sky) is one, and the glory of the terrestrial (above the ground) is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural (air-breathing) body; it is raised a spiritual (wind-blasting) body. There is a natural (air-breathing) body, and there is a spiritual (wind-blasting) body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (a living air-breathing creature); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (a life-giving WIND). 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Look, I know that it's unpopular NOT to believe in "going to Heaven when one dies," but I believe that it more accurately reflects Scripture as it was written. There are a LOT of charlatans out there who claim to have "gone to Heaven and back" (or "gone to Hell and back"), but to date NOT ONE OF THEM could be supported by fact, not external to Scriptures and certainly not INTERNAL to Scriptures!

When people describe "Heaven" what descriptions do they use? They will invariably use the descriptions of the NEW JERUSALEM found in Revelation 21 and 22! But, those are NOT descriptions of "Heaven"; they are descriptions about the NEW JERUSALEM, the capital city of the NEW EARTH, which comes down FROM GOD out of the sky (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out-of the sky," although translated "out of heaven")! I suppose it's okay to call the New Jerusalem "Heaven," if you want to; just be sure you know what it TRULY is!

The REAL point is this: There's a LOT that goes on between the Resurrection and the descent of the New Jerusalem! It's not over by a LONG SHOT when we die! I prefer to believe that we will "go to sleep," shutting our eyes in death, and the next thing we know we're "waking up" in the Resurrection! John told us in Revelation 20 that the Master Yeshua` the Messiah of God will be ruling and reigning for that whole period of a THOUSAND YEARS when haSatan is finally incarcerated - locked away - in the pit with an unsounded bottom! So, what happens during that ONE THOUSAND YEARS, that MILLENNIUM?! ("Millennium" is a Latin contraction of "mille," meaning a "thousand," and "annium" meaning "of years.") That's a VERY, VERY LONG TIME! And, it all happens AFTER our Resurrection! Why does He need us to "rule and reign with Him for that thousand years?"

We're all too worried about a short 7-year period prior to the Millennium; what's that compared to a THOUSAND YEARS?!

[Retrobyter]

24 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Yes,  that's when we experience our glorification, but in God's eyes it is a done deal and an unbroken chain from calling to glorification.

Shalom, Yowm.

Well, okay. That doesn't happen at death, y'know. That happens at the Resurrection. We aren't resurrected, even "figuratively," at death. So, without being a glorified body, what good would it do to "go to Heaven," or rather, to the New Jerusalem currently above-the-sky?

[Retrobyter]

2 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Well my whole point, without going into the particulars was equating justification with as good as heaven or glorification using Romans 8:29-30.

Shalom, Yowm.

That's all I'm saying, too. What good is "going to Heaven" when we just end up on the New Earth with its New Jerusalem, anyway? And, like I said, it's fine to call the New Jerusalem "Heaven," if you want to do so; just remember what it TRULY is.