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5 hours ago, Concretecamper said:

4. Simon the sorcerer offered the apostles money so that anyone that he laid hands on would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 
Peter rebuked him strongly in Acts 8:20-23 saying: "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the GIFT OF
GOD may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness."

Salvation is the gift of God that each of us must claim freely for ourselves when we call on Christ to be our Saviour. No baptism, eucharist, confessional to a priest, penance, extreme unction, or paying money can save us, only faith in Christ's precious saving blood to pay for our sins.

Indeed Salvation is an OFFERED Gift from God; only NOT in the manner believed by you and most Protestants.

Salvation is a process and Life itself is Thee God Test. {Isaiah 43: 7 & 21}

I respectfully remind you again the we Catholics were being Saved Christ way for fifteen centuries before Luther's' lead Protestant reformation {which BTW is found exactly where in the bible?}

God Bless you

Patrick

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1 hour ago, Mike Mclees said:

No one is perfect! This is why Jesus took our punishment on Himself, but you say he still requires more punishment. Grace is not enough. It is hard for me to keep my composure. 

My friend, that is an "ignorant" {uninformed} statement.

The many investigated Catholic Saints {capitol "S"] were perfect which is how and WHY they are saints.

Then there are the multitude of investigated "saints" {small "s", who too are saints}☺️ 

This is largely possible by the  Sacrament of the "Last Rites" {James 5:14} " [14] Is any man sick among you? Let him bring inthe priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. [15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him."

Similar to Sacramental Baptism; this Sacrament too {which as the NORM /with exceptions] includes Sacramental Confession; removes ALL sins as well as the Temporal Punishment attached to all sins; hence a Soul is literally "made Perfect" and should that persona die before sinning again; that Soul would ascend directly init heaven.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

 

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On 4/10/2018 at 11:12 PM, KiwiChristian said:

INDULGENCES.

Definition: A person after confessing his sins to a priest, in order to be free from the punishment still due for his sins, requires the church to pray for his rehabilitation. 

The person must do penance works such as fasting, making pilgrimages, giving money, making prayers or inflicting pain on oneself, as a penalty for sins committed.

Historically, people found it easier to pay money to the Roman Catholic church than to pray for long hours. The Roman Catholic church preferred money because the Pope ran out of cash in building St Peter’s Basilica in Rome. So the Roman Catholic church issued the person with an official statement that he had received release from the penalties through the payment of money. This document was called an indulgence. They could be bought for
friends and relatives who had died and passed into purgatory, thus shortening the time that they would have to spend there.

Martin Luther objected to Tetzel, a Catholic indulgence seller, who publicly announced to people that if they put a coin in a box, a dead relative's soul would immediately pop out of purgatory. His advertising slogan was: "As the coin in you pop, a soul from purgatory doth hop."


Answer: Obviously, this teaching cannot be found in the Bible. After Word War II, the Archbishop of Winnipeg asked mothers who had sons killed in the war, to pay $40 to have masses said on behalf of their sons to guarantee their salvation and entrance to heaven.
This practice continues in many parts of the world, and accounts 
for the great wealth of the Catholic church as seen in the big cathedrals it builds.


Which Bible verses forbid indulgence selling?

1. Jesus warns against this practice in Matthew 23:14, a verse that Catholics have cut out of modern Bible versions. "Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye devour widows houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."

The Pharisees of Jesus' day, as well as Catholic priests of today, tell widows that their dead husband has gone to purgatory. They ask her if she wants him to go to heaven.

If yes, she will have to pay the priest to say a mass to pray for his soul to leave purgatory. Widows don't usually have much money, so he tells her to sell her house to pay for it. This is how widows houses are devoured by priests who for a pretense make long prayers.

2. The Israelites were forbidden to give money for the dead. "None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him." Psalms 49:7. No gift of money can save another person. Only the blood of Christ can.

3. Peter says: "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold ... but with the precious blood of Christ." 1 Peter 1:18,19. Nobody is redeemed with indulgence money.

4. Simon the sorcerer offered the apostles money so that anyone that he laid hands on would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 
Peter rebuked him strongly in Acts 8:20-23 saying: "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the GIFT OF
GOD may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness."

Salvation is the gift of God that each of us must claim freely for ourselves when we call on Christ to be our Saviour. No baptism, eucharist, confessional to a priest, penance, extreme unction, or paying money can save us, only faith in Christ's precious saving blood to pay for our sins.

Another copy and paste fellow.  Is that all that is done here?  Can anyone think for themselves?

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43 minutes ago, Patrick Miron said:

Indeed Salvation is an OFFERED Gift from God; only NOT in the manner believed by you and most Protestants.

Salvation is a process and Life itself is Thee God Test. {Isaiah 43: 7 & 21}

I respectfully remind you again the we Catholics were being Saved Christ way for fifteen centuries before Luther's' lead Protestant reformation {which BTW is found exactly where in the bible?}

God Bless you

Patrick

Not sure what happened by I didn't quote what you attributed to me.

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1 hour ago, Patrick Miron said:

My friend, that is an "ignorant" {uninformed} statement.

The many investigated Catholic Saints {capitol "S"] were perfect which is how and WHY they are saints.

Then there are the multitude of investigated "saints" {small "s", who too are saints}☺️ 

This is largely possible by the  Sacrament of the "Last Rites" {James 5:14} " [14] Is any man sick among you? Let him bring inthe priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. [15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him."

Similar to Sacramental Baptism; this Sacrament too {which as the NORM /with exceptions] includes Sacramental Confession; removes ALL sins as well as the Temporal Punishment attached to all sins; hence a Soul is literally "made Perfect" and should that persona die before sinning again; that Soul would ascend directly init heaven.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

 

Of course and as I said your church invents what serves them and feeds it tot the ignorant. Perfect saints is another invention not in scripture. But you reduce scripture as authority claiming  the hierarchy is authority so they can invent anything they want. I'm not ignorant at all I have been around a while.

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8 hours ago, Patrick Miron said:

Your kidding right?

John 20: 19-23 

 [19] Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples {NOW TERMED PRIEST...SEE MT 10:1-4} were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to THEM: Peace be to YOU [20] And when he had said this, he shewed THEM his hands and his side. The disciples {PRIEST} therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. [21] He said therefore TO THEM again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent ME  I also send YOU. {WITH SOME OF MY GODLY POWERS AND AUTHORITY...AGAIN SEE MT 10:1-8  [22] When he had said this, he breathed ON THEM and he said to them: Receive YOU the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins YOU shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins YOU shall retain, they are retained.

Friend even without the benefit of God's grace; even a second grader could rightly translate this passage.

Mt.10: 1-4 ;/2 "[1] And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. [2] And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, [3] James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, [4] Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. [5] These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go YOU.....

The term disciple and Apostle are often interchangeable. One prudently must be able to discern to WHOM Jesus is speaking to [1] directly [2] precisely & [3] exclusively including their successors  {Mt 10:1-8 compared to Mt 28:18-20.} 

you'll find the term priest {S IN CATHOLIC-PRIEST] right next to the term "bible" in the Bible

Repentance is ONLY the 1st necessary step:

Jesus wan't inventing the wheel here: He was following OT practices; and perfecting them in and through HIS Catholic Priest.

Lev. 5:

 [5] Let him do penance for his sin, [6] And offer of the flocks an ewe lamb, or a she goat, and the priest shall pray for him and for his sin:

[16] And he shall make good the damage itself which he hath done, and shall add the fifth part besides, delivering it to the priest, who shall pray for him, offering the ram, and it shall be forgiven him

 Friend the OT leads to the NT which is fulfilled and even Perfected by Jesus.

So a question: IF as you indicate, John 20:19-23 is NOT Jesus instituting the Sacrament of Penance {known SIN forgiveness} why then do you suppose this is in the Holy Spirit Inspired Bible? And secondly; just how is you feel empowered to teach Christ Church; the birthers of the bible; what it means?  ...We HAD the bible for at least 1,500 years before your Protestant faith came along. ...

May the Holy Spirit lead our life paths,

Patrick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh how you Catholics love to twist the scriptures.

[1] Catholics DO have to do indulgencies, Because they don't have enough faith in the finished work of Jesus.

[2]Jn 20: 23, Isn't about men remitting sins, Jesus is talking to ALL His disciples in Jn 20: 19--15, NOT just the Apostles, And certainly NOT tabout the Un-Biblical Catholic priests. Jesus said it's when a person repents that there sins are remitted. Lk 24: 47. NOT when a man remits them. What Jesus meant, was, Every born again Christian can tell a repented person that there sins have been remitted. You CANNOT take ONE out of context verse to build a doctrine on, Yet Catholics do.

 

[3]Jesus didn't build His Church on Peter, He said Peter was a STONE, Jn 1: 42, NOT a Rock. The Bible, Aramaic and Greek ALL prove that Jesus DIDN'T build His Church on Peter. And I can prove it.

[4]Isaiah 22: 22 is a reference to Jesus, Rev 3: 7, NOT to Peter.

So you can see how the Catholics twist the Bible Aramaic and the Greek.

 

Next time don't right so many points, just do ONE point at a time.

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8 hours ago, Patrick Miron said:

Your kidding right?

John 20: 19-23 

 [19] Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples {NOW TERMED PRIEST...SEE MT 10:1-4} were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to THEM: Peace be to YOU [20] And when he had said this, he shewed THEM his hands and his side. The disciples {PRIEST} therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. [21] He said therefore TO THEM again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent ME  I also send YOU. {WITH SOME OF MY GODLY POWERS AND AUTHORITY...AGAIN SEE MT 10:1-8  [22] When he had said this, he breathed ON THEM and he said to them: Receive YOU the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins YOU shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins YOU shall retain, they are retained.

Friend even without the benefit of God's grace; even a second grader could rightly translate this passage.

Mt.10: 1-4 ;/2 "[1] And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. [2] And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, [3] James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, [4] Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. [5] These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go YOU.....

The term disciple and Apostle are often interchangeable. One prudently must be able to discern to WHOM Jesus is speaking to [1] directly [2] precisely & [3] exclusively including their successors  {Mt 10:1-8 compared to Mt 28:18-20.} 

you'll find the term priest {S IN CATHOLIC-PRIEST] right next to the term "bible" in the Bible

Repentance is ONLY the 1st necessary step:

Jesus wan't inventing the wheel here: He was following OT practices; and perfecting them in and through HIS Catholic Priest.

Lev. 5:

 [5] Let him do penance for his sin, [6] And offer of the flocks an ewe lamb, or a she goat, and the priest shall pray for him and for his sin:

[16] And he shall make good the damage itself which he hath done, and shall add the fifth part besides, delivering it to the priest, who shall pray for him, offering the ram, and it shall be forgiven him

 Friend the OT leads to the NT which is fulfilled and even Perfected by Jesus.

So a question: IF as you indicate, John 20:19-23 is NOT Jesus instituting the Sacrament of Penance {known SIN forgiveness} why then do you suppose this is in the Holy Spirit Inspired Bible? And secondly; just how is you feel empowered to teach Christ Church; the birthers of the bible; what it means?  ...We HAD the bible for at least 1,500 years before your Protestant faith came along. ...

May the Holy Spirit lead our life paths,

Patrick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1]Jesus wasn't speaking to Catholics, in Jn 20: 19--25, He was speaking to His people.

[2] No man can remit sins, What Jesus was saying Is, ANY Christian can tell a repented person that their sins have been remitted.

Jesus said it's when a person repents that their sins are remitted, NOT when a man remits them. You Catholics take ONE out of context verse to build your false doctrines on.

[3]You take out of context with the New Testament scriptures to build your erroneous doctrines, on.

We are in New Testament times now, Not under the Old Testament rules.

There s no New testament teaching of the erroneous sacrament of penance. The Catholics  taught penance in the 4th century. Catholics have there own Un-Biblical rules, laws and doctrines that bring bondage to there people.

 

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On 9/30/2018 at 9:25 PM, Patrick Miron said:

No, incorrect as written.

REMOVE and change "had to" and replace it could OPTION t do and you'd be closer to the truth.

Indulgences themselves are OPTIONS; not MANDATES

Further your understanding of the Absolute need {now or in Purgatory} stems from a dual misunderstanding:

The full- nature of Sin

The Divine Nature as to how it MUST relate to sin, which I'm to tired to night to get into {its profound and lengthy},  but if you'd like to discuss it let me know.

Further, the bible itself teaches that not everything can be, ought to be, and was even desired to be in the bible {also a separate topic we can discuss}

God Bless you NEW friend,

Patrick

 

 

Respectfully, the word "indulgence" contains the word "indulge", in sin, and there is "no more offering for sin [besides the Christ]".

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Thank you friends for setting the record strait for Patrick  

  • Praise God! 1
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16 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

Of course and as I said your church invents what serves them and feeds it tot the ignorant. Perfect saints is another invention not in scripture. But you reduce scripture as authority claiming  the hierarchy is authority so they can invent anything they want. I'm not ignorant at all I have been around a while.

Thanks friend for sharing you're  thoughts

Patrick

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