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"Christians" that sin....an answer


Debp

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11 hours ago, Adstar said:

Nope.. Perfection comes when we are resurrected and transformed into the perfect beings that we shall be in eternity..

But on this side of death we are ""deemed"" perfect because our sins are being covered by the blood of the LORD Jesus Christ..

 

By perfection I mean sinless. You said to the man have you ceased from all sin. You  say here that this side of death we are deemed perfect because our sins are covered be the blood of Christ.  If that is true then why would you ask him has he ceased from all sin This side of heaven you cannot walk perfectly or sinless.  Unless you are just trying to confuse the subject

Now I ask again if you this side of death have you ceased from all sin an independent of the blood of Christ

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My point in starting this topic was because we had a Muslim member that thought because Christians have a Savior, he thought that Christians then just continually sin.

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12 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

By perfection I mean sinless. You said to the man have you ceased from all sin. You  say here that this side of death we are deemed perfect because our sins are covered be the blood of Christ.  If that is true then why would you ask him has he ceased from all sin This side of heaven you cannot walk perfectly or sinless.  Unless you are just trying to confuse the subject

Now I ask again if you this side of death have you ceased from all sin an independent of the blood of Christ

Again i restate .. No one ceases sinning this side of death....  So a person claiming to be sinless is actually telling a lie and thus is sinning..   How much more clearer can i get...

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On 4/11/2018 at 1:39 PM, Debp said:

Let me clarify my statement.....I meant a person who continually walks in sin as a daily thing, a way of life....no change at all in their lives.

I started this topic to help answer a Muslim on the forum who thought because Jesus forgives our sins, he thought that Christians just keep deliberately sinning because of that. 

 

 

 

On 4/12/2018 at 5:02 AM, Debp said:

Brother, I don't know why you are misunderstanding my statements.    I am trying to help a Muslim realize that just because Jesus is our Savior doesn't mean we take sin lightly.   He thought because we have a Savior that we would just keep sinning and wouldn't care.  Perhaps you can address him rather than me?

As I said previously, if a person claims to be a Christian but continually walks in sin and there is absolutely no change in their lives, they probably were never born again.

 

6 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Then why would you not simply explain that when you started the thread?

I did explain early in the topic that I was trying to help a Muslim understand as you can see from my above posts.

The Muslim and I had a discussion via pm and I started the topic for him.

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On 10/30/2018 at 5:01 AM, discipler777 said:

.

Matthew 19:16-21 says that it was possible for the Jews to keep the Law of God. Those Christians who falsely believe that they cannot keep the Law and so wilfully "Go and sin some more"(cf John 5:14 & 8:11) may lose their salvation by losing faith in God/Jesus while suffering for their wilful or intentional sins/evil-works/law-breaking.(1Cor 5:1-5 & 11:30 & 6:9-11, 1John 5:16-17, Job 2:9)

The Parable of the Sower at Matthew 13 says that Christians can lose salvation by renouncing their faith in Jesus/God during times of persecution and tribulations/wars.(cf Matthew 10:33 - the denying of Christ) 1Timothy 4:1 says that Christians can depart from the faith by heeding deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 2Timothy 4:7 says that Christians need to hold on to their salvation by keeping the faith until the very end.

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Leviticus 4:2 and Hebrews 10:26-31 say that unintentional sins can be atoned for(= no need to suffer the curses of God) but intentional or wilful sins cannot be atoned for(= have to suffer the curses/judgment of God but could still be healed or delivered by God/Jesus). Both sins need to be repented of before being atoned for or forgiven by God = not to be intentionally repeated.

King David repented of intentional murder and adultery, was atoned/forgiven by God(= not executed by God) but his sons had to suffer the consequences of his sins(= were killed by God) In comparison, the rich young Jewish man of Luke 16:19-32 ended up in hell/hades or not saved because he broke the Law at Deuteronomy 15:11 by not doing charity work towards beggar Lazarus during every Sabbath/7th Year, he did not repent and seek forgiveness from God.

Fallen Man's inherited Adam's Original Sin is an unintentional sin and can be atoned for - by the blood of Jesus Christ = those who repented and have faith in Jesus Christ will be saved from hell.(Leviticus 17:11, Hebrews 9:22, Romans 5:12, John 3:14-18)

Acts 15:24-29 & 21:20-25 permit Gentile Christians to only keep God's Law/commandments which are not a burden to them, eg no need to be circumcised but need to keep laws against sexual immorality. Otherwise, the curses/judgment of God will follow.

1. this gets into the debate about eternal salvation (once saved always saved) which the scripture clearly states:

  • is initiated by God (Ephesians 2:8-10) 
  • provided / carried out by God (1 Corinthians 11:1-4)
  • maintained by God (John 5:28-29)
  • insured by God / man cannot sin his way out of (1 Corinthians 5:5)
  • that man cannot turn away from (Jeremiah 32:40)
  • with a system in place to deal with sin with the individual's time remaining here (1 John 1:5 - 1 John 2:17)

2. being able to walk away from salvation, sin away from it, to  not have it for whatever reason... is to never have had it in the first place (1 John 2:18-19)

My only point in this thread was:

Romans 14:4 (AV)
4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

We need to be very careful about rendering judgments against believers especially.

So carnal Christians may not be as enlightened as "we" believe we are... they are still Christians. Otherwise they would just be carnal... 

The Lord bless all in this discussion with his love and his wisdom. I am sure we all miss his point in some way or other since only he is true and we are liars (Romans 3:4).

 

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26 minutes ago, JohnD said:

1. this gets into the debate about eternal salvation (once saved always saved) which the scripture clearly states: ...

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Whether Christians believe in "once saved always saved" or "once saved not always saved", they should ... "Go and sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”(John 5 :14 & 8:11)

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To me "once saved always saved" is being presumptuous about God and discounts fallen Man's free will, even though he/she has been initially saved by faith. OSAS may lead to over-confidence about one's salvation and being desensitized to sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking or "having their own conscience seared with a hot iron" = deceivingly telling oneself that sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking will never cause him/her to be unsaved. ...

1Timothy 4 = The Great Apostasy

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

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Revelation 22 = Jesus Testifies to the Churches

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Edited by discipler777
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Psalm 14:3 (AV)
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psalm 53:3
Romans 3:10
Romans 3:12
1 Corinthians 6:5
Isaiah 64:6 (AV)
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

James 2:10 (AV)
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

How does one actually keep the Law?

Galatians 3:24–25 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

By believing in Christ (the only one who ever actually fully kept the Law).

By the simple fact of our fallen sin nature... that which makes us children of the devil (Matthew 16:23) by nature (John 8:44) we could never actually fully fulfill the Law of Moses.

That argument in John 8 was in reference to being children of God (the Father) or not.  John 1:14 clearly states there is only one child of God the Father. And we are sons and daughters of God through adoption once we believe in His Son (Romans 8:15).

No, my friend, you over estimate humanity and its ability to thwart the plan of salvation God went to too much trouble to produce to allow feeble mankind to maintain it.

That's God's job.

I only caution believers not to use this as a license to sin. If you do, God is more involved in our lives than we realize and can take us to the woodshed / take away every blessing he has given us and we've taken for granted.

Do not lose your motivation to live to please God.

But at the same time realize God's got the pitfalls in this life covered so have faith in him rather than going through life a s a 'bloody rabbi.'

A sect of Jews who so feared sinning they looked down at the ground everywhere they went and always ran into things... hence the name bloody rabbi.

The devil laughs at believers he can so entangle in fears and anxieties rather than enjoy the peace and freedom and ease of being a believer in Christ Jesus.

Jesus said "my yoke is easy, my burden is light..."

Listen to HIM.

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15 minutes ago, discipler777 said:

.

Whether Christians believe in "once saved always saved" or "once saved not always saved", they should ... "Go and sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”(John 5 :14 & 8:11)

A sobering reminder of the fallen world we live in.

So, how are you doing? About sinning no more, I mean?

If you wish to literalize this point... I could also bring up Hebrews 6:4 as a passage if taken

literally as you do this one and in conjunction with it states that if you ever sin again you ain't never gonna get saved again.

So these verses are all wrong then?

Salvation...

is initiated by God (Ephesians 2:8-10) 

provided / carried out by God (1 Corinthians 11:1-4)

maintained by God (John 5:28-29)

insured by God / man cannot sin his way out of (1 Corinthians 5:5)

that man cannot turn away from (Jeremiah 32:40)

with a system in place to deal with sin with the individual's time remaining here (1 John 1:5 - 1 John 2:17)

 

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4 minutes ago, JohnD said:

A sobering reminder of the fallen world we live in.

So, how are you doing? About sinning no more, I mean?

If you wish to literalize this point... I could also bring up Hebrews 6:4 as a passage if taken

literally as you do this one and in conjunction with it states that if you ever sin again you ain't never gonna get saved again.

So these verses are all wrong then?

Salvation...

is initiated by God (Ephesians 2:8-10) 

provided / carried out by God (1 Corinthians 11:1-4)

maintained by God (John 5:28-29)

insured by God / man cannot sin his way out of (1 Corinthians 5:5)

that man cannot turn away from (Jeremiah 32:40)

with a system in place to deal with sin with the individual's time remaining here (1 John 1:5 - 1 John 2:17)

 

I'm sure they will want to abandon that aspect of the text …. inconsistencies of walking with the Scriptures lead to inconsistencies of life...

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9 minutes ago, JohnD said:

If you wish to literalize this point... I could also bring up Hebrews 6:4 as a passage if taken

literally as you do this one and in conjunction with it states that if you ever sin again you ain't never gonna get saved again.

.

Hebrews 6 = 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

(NKJV)

.

2Thessalonians 2 = The Great Apostasy

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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1Corinthians 6:9-11 = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

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Hebrews 10:26-31 = 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

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To me, the "fall away" of Hebrews 6:4 is related to the "falling away" by the lawlessness and unrighteousness of 2Thess 2 that will precede the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ to earth.

Christians, for whatever reasons(eg self-deception/delusion and doctrines of demons), who fall into wilful or ignorant sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking, will be severely cursed/judged by God and may lose their salvation by losing faith in Christ/God while suffering for their sins, eg Job 2:9. Otoh, if they repent and keep the faith, like King David and Job, they will remain saved from hell.

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