Corruption of the Bible

[GeorgeTwo]

On 12/04/2018 at 6:07 AM, OneGodBeliever said:

OK fair enough. I cannot say about other versions since verses are removed which u already agree to corruption in them. We can continue to my second claim books removed. Below 14 books are part of bible originally but were removed by the Vatican. My question is you claim KJV as word of God but it does not contain below books which are actually part of bible:

• 1 Esdras
• 2 Esdras
• Tobit
• Judith
• The rest of Esther
• The Wisdom of Solomon
• Ecclesiasticus
• Baruch with the epistle Jeremiah
• The Songs of the 3 Holy children
• The history of Susana
• bel and the dragon
• The prayer for Manasses
• 1 Maccabees
• 2 Maccabees

These are Jewish books that the Jews do not consider inspired.  

[GeorgeTwo]

On 12/04/2018 at 7:51 AM, OneGodBeliever said:

Do you have gospel of Jesus? Not gospel according to Matthew, Luke, John etc!

Read the text as the Gospel of Jesus according to Matthew; Gospel of Jesus according to Mark; Gospel of Jesus according to Luke, etc.

 

 

[GeorgeTwo]

On 12/04/2018 at 8:23 AM, OneGodBeliever said:

For the claim of words (who believe all major versions as word of God) removed if you look into john 3:13 the verse according to KJV is below:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

now RSV

 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

 

notice the words " which is in heaven is removed".

 

And how do you think this changes the meaning?

 

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John 3:13 American Standard Version (ASV)

¹³ And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, ^[a]who is in heaven.

Footnotes:

1. John 3:13 Man ancient authorities omit who is in heaven.

 

[GeorgeTwo]

On 12/04/2018 at 8:25 AM, OneGodBeliever said:

No Christian scholar believes they were disciples but came hundreds of years later after Jesus.

Nonsense.

[GeorgeTwo]

On 12/04/2018 at 8:15 AM, OneGodBeliever said:

We will discuss Quran later. Let's stick to the topic.

Why not discuss the Qur'an now?  Because the Qur'an in many verses says it confirms past revelations and since our manuscripts pre-date the Qur'an by several hundred which means the Qur'an confirms what we have today.

But we both know the Qur'an contradicts the past revelations, don't we?

 

[GeorgeTwo]

On 12/04/2018 at 8:33 AM, OneGodBeliever said:

As per previous comments of follow Christians they are part of bible!

They are included in Catholic Bibles as reference and that is all.  Most Protestants do not include them.

 

 

[GeorgeTwo]

On 12/04/2018 at 9:01 AM, OneGodBeliever said:

I would believe them word of God if there was no contradiction

What do you consider a "contradiction"?  Each gospel was written for a particular audience.  Matthew for Jews, for instance.

[GeorgeTwo]

On 4/12/2018 at 7:04 AM, OneGodBeliever said:

 a whole verse is removed & not just words! Being word of God no one can add/remove anything!

See this 5 minute video which proves the Qur'an has changed and has missing parts.

The Perversion of Qur’an and the Loss of Many Parts of It

http://www.answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv12.html

Clips:

’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,

"Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available"’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).

A’isha (also page 72) adds to the story of ibn Umar and says,

"During the time of the prophet, the chapter of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Qur’an, only the current (verses) were recorded" (73 verses).

The same statement is made by Ubay ibn Ka’b, one of the great companions. On page 72, part 3, the Suyuti says,

"This famous companion asked one of the Muslims, ‘How many verses in the chapter of the Parties?’ He said, ‘Seventy-two or seventy-three verses.’ He (Ubay) told him, ‘It used to be almost equal to the chapter of the Cow (about 286 verses) and included the verse of the stoning.’ The man asked, ‘What is the verse of the stoning?’ He said, ‘If an old man or woman committed adultery, stone them to death."’

Another confession by A’isha:

"Among the (verses) which were sent down, (the verse) of the ten breast feedings was abrogated by (a verse which calls for five breast feedings. The apostle of God died and this verse was still read as part of the Qur’an. This was related by Abu Bakr and ’Umar" (refer to Suyuti’s qan, part 3, pages 62 and 63).

In his book (volume 8, part II, pages 235 and 236), Ibn Hazm says plainly,

"The verses of stoning and breast feeding were in the possession of A’isha in a (Qur’anic) copy. When Muhammad died and people became busy in the burial preparations, a domesticated animal entered in and ate it."

In part 3, page 73, the Suyuti said,

"Hamida, the daughter of Abi Yunis, said, ‘When my father was eighty years old, he read in the copy of A’isha, "God and His angels bless (literally pray for) the prophet Oh ye who believe, bless him and those who pray in the first rows." Then she said, "That was before ’Uthman changed the Qur’anic copies.""’

On page 74, we read,

"Umar said to ’Abdul-Rahman Ibn ’Oaf, ‘Didn’t you find among the verses that we received one saying, "Strive as you strove at the first?" We do not locate it (any more).’ ’Abdul-Rahman Ibn ’Oaf told him, ‘This verse has been removed among those others which were removed from the Qur’an."’

If we ponder the first part of "The Itqan", by the Suyuti, we read (page 184),

"Malik says that several verses from chapter 9 (Sura of Repentance) have been dropped from the beginning. Among them is, ‘In the name of God the compassionate, the Merciful’ because it was proven that the length of Sura of Repentance was equal to the length of the Sura of the Cow."

This means that this chapter has lost 157 verses. Also (page 184), the Suyuti tells us that the words, "In the name of God the compassionate, the merciful" were found in the chapter of Repentance in the Qur’anic copy which belonged to Ibn Mas’ud which ’Uthman confiscated and burned when the current Qur’an was edited.

Not only verses have been dropped, but also entire chapters have been abolished from the ’Uthmanic copy which is in the hands of all Muslims today.

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Steve_S
Removed video. Please post videos in the appropriate video forum.

[Guest shiloh357]

Until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the old Hebrew copy of the Old Testament was about 900 AD.   With the Dead Sea Scrolls, we found copies of OT books that went to at least 250 BC, and thus were 1,100 years older and we were able to compare those older manuscripts with other more recent copies and it was discovered that even our most recent copies of the OT are completely accurate.   A good example is the complete copy of Isaiah found at Qumran and is on display in Israel.  It proves that our modern OT is completely trustworthy.

For the New Testament, we have around 25,000 Greek NT manuscripts some complete copies and others only in fragments, but at each point where comparisons can be made, these copies are in complete agreement. There are 5,000 Greek NT manuscripts that date from the early 2nd century to the 5th century and around 20,000 quotations from 2nd through the 4th  century extra-biblical documents. These quotations agree with the actual NT parchments and they are so numerous that if we didn’t have the actual copied manuscripts, the entire NT could be reproduced from those extra-biblical quotations except for 7 or 8 verses.   You can take all of these manuscripts and compare and they agree completely at every possible point of comparison over 400-500 year span of time, which testifies against the NT being corrupted.

The sheer number of manuscripts speaks to reliability, because the more there are, the more comparisons can be done to look for variants to look for mistakes or attempts to altar the text. The more you can compare, the more you can be assured of what was actually written. Furthermore, when you consider the thousands of texts that were circulating prior to end of the 4th century, it would have been difficult for a few copyists to purposefully or accidentally alter the texts. There would simply have been too many reliable manuscripts in existence for such a fraudulent attempt to be plausible. Errant scribes would have been noticed immediately. It would be like a modern historian attempting to omit or alter the events surrounding the assassination of JFK. It simply could not be done due to the over abundance and preponderance of reliable historical records.

I would say that one of the biggest mistakes that atheists and other skeptics make is that they are not readily aware of just how much many copies of the NT letters were in circulation during the first and second centuries. Many of them parrot what they hear from others who are themselves not very learned in the area of biblical manuscript evidence. For that reason, conspiracy theories about the origins of the Bible are legion in atheist/skeptic circles.

 

Edited April 14, 2018 by shiloh357

[GeorgeTwo]

On 12/04/2018 at 9:04 AM, OneGodBeliever said:

To add can you answer what was the language Jesus spoke & what language original bible is?

Jesus spoke Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek depending on the audience He was addressing.  The New Testament was written in Koine Greek because it could reach the most people.  Koine Greek was the language of commerce.