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AMERICA: NEW ROME & BABYLON THE GREAT ("Come out of her, My people...")


LightShinesInTheDarkness

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19 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't know about all that. As far as Rome being any kind of candidate for anything in end time prophecy is, I think, a nonstarter. I would not liken any prophetic scripture about the end of the age to a Roman fulfillment. Regarding the 7 hills thing...there are dozens of cities around the world that are built or claim to be built on 7 hills. Not sure Rome is the only viable choice for that prophecy. Mecca is also the city of 7 hills and so could seemingly fulfill this as well.

If the truth of " and of all that were slain upon the earth." is killing in war, then every country is a candidate. Many countries killed in war, and long before the US existed. Why this idea that the US and/or Rome must fulfill prophecies? I don't see that anywhere in scripture. The only possible place I see the US is, "The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach." Possibly this is the US assisting Israel in time of need. We are the great eagle. Maybe this is what the US was prepared to do. Maybe it's only true purpose. I cannot say for sure.

You'll probably say that Rome is the fourth kingdom in Daniel. Maybe you'll also cite Rev 17:10, "...one is...", therefore Rome. Overwhelming evidence points away from Rome and toward the Middle East; specifically Mesopotamia and the region of ancient Babylon. 

I'm just not convinced.

I think a lot of things start to make sense when we look at prophecy from a "dual nature" perspective.  We tend to focus only on the natural view because we relate to the world around us through our senses.  God sees it all, spiritual and natural, and that's the perspective the Bible is written from.

I don't think Rome is significant either, however, the evil angel prince that spawned the Roman Empire is back after his stint in the abyss and has given us the feet of iron and clay, the United Nations.  There are times we have to look at the spiritual explanation for things to make sense.

  • Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors.  Daniel 2:35a
  • In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.  Daniel 2:44

How can the four kingdoms of the great statue all be crushed simultaneously unless that's a reference to their spiritual Princes that we read about in Daniel 10?

  • "Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, who destroys the whole earth,” declares the Lord, “And I will stretch out My hand against you, and roll you down from the crags, and I will make you a burnt out mountain."  Jeremiah 51:25

Concerning Babylon, this verse in Jeremiah sheds some light on it is.  What is the destroying mountain that destroys the whole earth?  Looking at the spiritual source of a thing is often necessary to understand the thing.

  • While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.  2 Corinthians 4:18

The seen, and the unseen, the dual nature of things.

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5 hours ago, LightShinesInTheDarkness said:

Figuratively speaking, heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of Jesus in the sense that He came from heaven, and that those who are born of God (born-again) also come from heaven, figuratively speaking. All Christians (whether Jewish by birth or Gentiles)  are children of heavenly Jerusalem, the offspring of God's promise to Abraham as it was realized in Jesus---the Offspring in whom all are counted children of God. The woman in Revelation chapter 12 is the mother of all the saints. She is not Israel, and she is not the church, although she does contain some of the church (men of the body of Christ), and some of the children of natural Israel (Jews by birth who have been born-again). 

But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written, rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one (earthly Jerusalem) will be more than those of the one who has a husband (heavenly Jerusalem, whose husband is Christ. See Revelation 21:9,10 & Isaiah 62:2-4). Galatians 4:26, 27.

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Revelation 12:17) 

Ok. Repeating what you said earlier does not verify a truth. The sign of the woman in Rev 12 is not 'heavenly Jerusalem'. What you are saying then is, heavenly Jerusalem flees to the wilderness, (Why? If she's in heaven why would she flee?), to a place God prepared, (Why would God prepare a place in the desert when heavenly Jerusalem is already in heaven?) she is fed for 1260 days, (isn't this heavenly Jerusalem?), and is persecuted by the dragon on earth (How, when she is in heaven?) Not only this but you are saying one in heaven actually gave birth to a man, in heaven. So, no the woman is Israel, who gave birth to Jesus, who lived on earth then was taken up to God (historically accurate) and will rule the nations; this same woman (Israel) is going to be persecuted, flee to the desert, be fed, be hidden and be helped by the earth to escape the dragon, ON EARTH. This woman is not in the heavens nor from the heavens.

I did not say (or mean) that the Roman empire was the kingdom of the beast, but that the kingdom of the beast was going to arise out of it---which it would have if the events of the Revelation had taken place at the time it was given to John, when Rome was the world power, and that Rome would have gone on to fulfill what is written about Babylon.

No. The kingdom of the beast will rise from one of the four notable generals that succeeded Alexander. Scripture is clear on this and it has nothing whatsoever to do with Rome or any Roman emperor, of the EU or the UN or any other world organization or country. Just one of the Diadochi, the ancient Seleucid empire to be precise.

It should also be noted that at the time of Daniel's visions and writing, the Jews were God's chosen people, so the prophecies in Daniel have to be interpreted according to who the people of God are today, and those things which pertained to the Jews and to Judaism but not to us taken into consideration, as well as history since that time. Daniel writes of the end times as though the Jews (as a nation) are still the people of God, which they no longer are (but Christians are, whether they were Jews by birth or Gentiles). The Romans, and the final king who would have arisen out of the Roman empire, would have been the enemies of God's people if the Jews were still God's people and Judaism was still His religion. But that is not the case today. Today, Christians are God's chosen people, and the Jews are anti-Christ, historically persecutors of Christians, as the false messiah who will arise to be their king will also be. So the Scriptures have to be interpreted according to what is true now, and not according to what was true in Daniel's day which relates to what John described in the Revelation concerning Rome/Babylon.

This is so far off from the truth of scripture you have lost credibility. That you do not know the Jews are still the people of God and always will be speaks volumes. The Jews are the natural olive tree and the Gentiles are grafted in; the promises are to the seed of Abraham, that's the Jew first; we are not natural sons, only adopted.

But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.  For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11

Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9

There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

Romans 2:10

but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Acts 13:46

Verse Concepts

Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; 

 

(This is not something that is easy to explain, as you can see.)It would be if you understood it yourself. It requires the interpretation of the Holy Spirit to understand what pertains to what or whom and what represents what as we read the prophetic Scriptures---and not merely scholarship or knowing what the Bible says. It is God Himself, and not the text alone, who teaches us what His word means and gives us the right understanding of His truth, for there are as many possible interpretations of what is written as there are people reading the Bible.

There is only one possible interpretation as there is but one Spirit over all. What you are suggesting here is 'special knowledge' to which the rest of us are not privy. Scripture interprets scripture and to suggest a higher understanding is more cult like than truth seeking.

Seeing as how the antichrist will be the false messiah and king of the Jews, he will not be a Muslim. The whole world (everyone who is not of God's elect) will follow and worship the beast, including those who are currently Muslims. There will be one religion for the whole world (and it will not be Islam, or Roman Catholicism). God will send them a strong delusion, with the demonic signs and wonders that the false prophet will be performing by the power of Satan, to deceive the world into worshiping the antichrist as God.

So because the beast is a false messiah and the protector of the Jews certain ethnic groups are excluded? Scripture calls him the Assyrian. Islamic. Daniel says he is coming from Mesopotamia. Predominately Islamic.

As for the feet and toes of the image Daniel saw (representing the kingdoms of the world) being iron mixed with clay, this has to do with sexual relations between demons and human woman, something that was also taking place in the days of Noah---which the Lord said that the days before His return (which will be the days of the beast's kingdom) would be like. The iron represents demons, the clay represents humans. The strength of this final kingdom will be demonic, and the weakness of it human. 

Oh my. 

As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so they (demons and humans) will mix with one another in marriage*, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. (Daniel 2:43) *Aramaic: by the seed of men

(What the "strength" and "brittleness" resulting from these unions or relations will mean practically with regard to how the kingdom of the antichrist operates, or what its qualities will be, I do not know. It may just have to do with the power of demons being hindered or limited by human frailty and mortality.)

While I can see how you got here this does not take into account the previous and following thoughts about the iron kingdom. Since the first three were literal kingdoms then so must be the fourth. The only one meeting all the requirements from all the prophecies of Daniel is the Islamic conquests of 700 to 1400 AD. Islam subdued all the Mideast right up to India, northern Africa, southern Europe, and even the mighty Roman empire fled before the Islamic hordes. Islam is an obsessive, religious entity where their faith guides policy. Very different from any of the other kingdoms. This mingling is not with demons and humans, but the demonic ideology with the people of the earth. Not that demons and humans may or may not copulate now or in the future, but that is not in view here. The iteration of the kingdom that came before is the topic. The mixing means the iron kingdom is no longer pure, not as strong, liable to crack, because of foreign investment, the clay.

We see this in ISIS and Islam right now. Islam and Sharia have invaded many countries and while they mingle with the people they do not adhere and in fact change the Laws to suit them. Many young idealists from all over the world have gone to join ISIS, again diluting the purity of the iron with clay and making it brittle.

Make no mistake; Daniel leads us from Babylon to Alexander, to the Diadochi, and then to the Seleucid empire, from whence the beast rises. Muslim. Islam. Bestial. The little horn.You see it right now in the news. ISIS is exactly like the fourth beast. 

Not that it matters. With your current view on the nation of Israel and the Jewish people your credibility has taken a serious wound and your understanding is in doubt.  

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 

 

I stand by what I wrote to you. I have nothing more to say to you about it. Time will show whether my interpretation is correct or not.

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So, no the woman is Israel, who gave birth to Jesus, who lived on earth then was taken up to God (historically accurate) and will rule the nations; this same woman (Israel) is going to be persecuted, flee to the desert, be fed, be hidden and be helped by the earth to escape the dragon, ON EARTH. This woman is not in the heavens nor from the heavens'

 The kingdom of the beast will rise from one of the four notable generals that succeeded Alexander. Scripture is clear on this and it has nothing whatsoever to do with Rome or any Roman emperor, of the EU or the UN or any other world organization or country. Just one of the Diadochi, the ancient Seleucid empire to be precise

Make no mistake; Daniel leads us from Babylon to Alexander, to the Diadochi, and then to the Seleucid empire, from whence the beast rises. Muslim. Islam. Bestial. The little horn.You see it right now in the news"

 

This is the precisely correct part of your response, but the little horn has not yet emerged .... nether do we know if he will be of ISIS

Possible, but we are not there yet

The land of Magog is where he will come from [Babylon, Iraq] [Ezekiel 38:2] 

Edited by Daniel 11:36
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3 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Anyone can accept Jesus if they do so sincerely and have 100% confidence of their salvation.  In the Calvin doctrine, if you are one of the "elect," sweet!  But if you are one of the ones who are not pre-ordained, sucks to be you.  That is not how salvation works.

Never said anyone could not accept Christ,yet that does not make them an Elect.

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5 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Exactly the wrong kind of response, especially when trying to tell someone else you don't think their light shines.  Your bulb seems to have a burned-out filament.

No, you don't get the history here. I have tried to be friendly with this guy. He just doesn't like me for some reason and whatever I say he finds something negative to reply about my posts. If hes been in a thread and I can see what hes said, but I am not replying unto him but someone else lets say, and what I say agrees with what hes been saying in the thread lets say at a 95 percent clip. He will reply to the 5 percent he disagrees with only. 

I don't mind disagreement, its a good thing, I learn from knocking it back and forth with others. But when everything you say someone pounces on you in a negative way I see what's going on. I don't know if hes jealous etc. etc. etc. I have don'r nothing to me, maybe hes a negative nancy to everyone, but I doubt it. I place a lot of people on ignore who I see as argumentative on many sites. We can disagree, but some people just love to argue, they seek out the 1 percent the disagree with you on and POUNCE, i don;t have time for that.  Brothers are supposed to try and uplift each other.  I will do all things to win souls for Christ. 

This isn't a one time thing, this has been going on a long while.  I don't come here to seek out argumentative sessions, I come here to fellowship. We can disagree without being disagreeable. 

 

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Guest shiloh357
On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 10:40 PM, n2thelight said:

 

Again ,the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world.They were justified then

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

 

Eph. 1:4 is talking about what God has chosen for Christians to become (holy and without blame).  It does not say that God chose who would become Christians.

Quote

 

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

 

The Bible knows nothing of any prior earth age.  So your foundational assumptions are wrong.   The Bible does not teach any such thing. 

 

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"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

The saved ARE the elect.   The Bible does not distinguish between two kinds of believers, the "saved" and the "elect."  That is again, something you are making up.

Quote

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.]

No, that is not what "cosmos" means.  Wicked false teachers always like to monkey around with redefining  words and what they mean.   This is no exception.

 

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The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

This is also wrong.  The Greek word, "katabole" means to lay down, it carries the idea of building a substructure.    It is never used for "overthrow"  That would the opposite of "katobole."  

All who say yes, to Jesus are "chosen."  "Chosen" doesn't mean that God picks one person over another.  It is not about who is chosen, but what is chosen.  Namely what He has chosen believers to become.   No one is chosen or rejected, where getting saved is concerned.
E

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phesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

 

"Predestined" as it is used in the Bible only refers to what God has predestined for believers.  It is never about justification, but about sanctification.  But you are too busy trying to change what words mean, because you are a false teacher, a wolf in sheep's clothing. 

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Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception.

No, that is false as well.  Your spirit is created at the moment of conception.

 

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This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

No, God had already planned out what Jeremiah would be after He was born.  God is omniscient and knows us even before we are born or before our spirits even exist.

 

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7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No, you don't get the history here. I have tried to be friendly with this guy. He just doesn't like me for some reason and whatever I say he finds something negative to reply about my posts. If hes been in a thread and I can see what hes said, but I am not replying unto him but someone else lets say, and what I say agrees with what hes been saying in the thread lets say at a 95 percent clip. He will reply to the 5 percent he disagrees with only. 

I don't mind disagreement, its a good thing, I learn from knocking it back and forth with others. But when everything you say someone pounces on you in a negative way I see what's going on. I don't know if hes jealous etc. etc. etc. I have don'r nothing to me, maybe hes a negative nancy to everyone, but I doubt it. I place a lot of people on ignore who I see as argumentative on many sites. We can disagree, but some people just love to argue, they seek out the 1 percent the disagree with you on and POUNCE, i don;t have time for that.  Brothers are supposed to try and uplift each other.  I will do all things to win souls for Christ. 

This isn't a one time thing, this has been going on a long while.  I don't come here to seek out argumentative sessions, I come here to fellowship. We can disagree without being disagreeable. 

 

I only post on this site, and I'm fairly certain that there is no "history here."  I honestly think you have me confused with someone else.  I have a pretty good recollection of people I've engaged on this forum (maybe less the older I get) and what you describe doesn't sound familiar at all.

What I do disagree with is the discussion tactic of special revelation where "God showed me this" becomes unquestionable proof.  The user Iamlamad engages in this too.  I've come to realize that when people play the "special revelation" card, they're there to force-feed people their views, regardless of whatever purpose they might claim.  That's why I disengaged.  I've been down that road enough to know its a dead-end.

Like I've said numerous times before concerning eschatology, believe what you want.  It doesn't matter.  What matters is that we build our lives on the truth of God's word, that we act on the teachings of Jesus.  And if that's a "wisenheimerism" that you find offensive, well, I can't help that.  It's the truth.

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14 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

So, there are special classes of salvation?

Where did I say that?

I know my Father is not a respecter of persons ,but would you consider your life on par with ,say Daniel,Moses Mark,Paul,and the other's?

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14 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, God had already planned out what Jeremiah would be after He was born.  God is omniscient and knows us even before we are born or before our spirits even exist.

You can call me names and throw accusations ,but I'm good

My view is I don't think God know.s who will come to Him

If He did,what's the purpose?

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