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DennisTate

Does a Jerusalem Temple come before Zechariah 14 fulfilled?

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes, and from scripture it might be the group in Israel that flees to the valley created by Jesus when he touches down on the mount of olives. Maybe. But it seems this group is a good candidate and might fit with Matt 5:5

Very likely, yes.  But since Christ rules the "nations" I think it goes beyond just Israelis.

  • And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.  Joel 2:32

Who are the meek that are blessed, who humble themselves and call on the name of the Lord and inherit the earth?  And how are they called by the Lord and humbled?  My thoughts are that in addition to the Israelis you mention, people from around the world who are humbled by the plagues and call on the name of the Lord and attain to the 1335th day will be in that number.

I don't expect that there will be many because man will be scarcer than fine gold.  Even so, reducing 7 billion by 99.9% still leaves 7 million (if I did the math right).  And who will the multitude of immortal saints govern?  Just thinking out loud.

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43 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Very likely, yes.  But since Christ rules the "nations" I think it goes beyond just Israelis.

  • And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.  Joel 2:32

Who are the meek that are blessed, who humble themselves and call on the name of the Lord and inherit the earth?  And how are they called by the Lord and humbled?  My thoughts are that in addition to the Israelis you mention, people from around the world who are humbled by the plagues and call on the name of the Lord and attain to the 1335th day will be in that number.

I don't expect that there will be many because man will be scarcer than fine gold.  Even so, reducing 7 billion by 99.9% still leaves 7 million (if I did the math right).  And who will the multitude of immortal saints govern?  Just thinking out loud.

I agree that there should be some that survive not of Israel, but from many nations. As you say, not a great number, but some. We see the warnings from the angels in Rev about taking the mark and a proclamation about dying in the Lord, from henceforth. I suspect full implementation of the mark will take some time, and will see some holding out as long as possible. Perhaps these people will enter wrath and then call on the Lord, as you stated above.

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Diaste, Revelation 21:1-7 is clear; the new Jerusalem comes down to earth after the Millennium. Note in verse 7 that it is the heritage of the Victorious peoples.  That is; of every faithful believer, all who stood strong in their faith during all the trials and tribulations.  Please do not think that ethnicity has any significance then. Or now!

 

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15 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Very likely, yes.  But since Christ rules the "nations" I think it goes beyond just Israelis.

  • And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.  Joel 2:32

Who are the meek that are blessed, who humble themselves and call on the name of the Lord and inherit the earth?  And how are they called by the Lord and humbled?  My thoughts are that in addition to the Israelis you mention, people from around the world who are humbled by the plagues and call on the name of the Lord and attain to the 1335th day will be in that number.

I don't expect that there will be many because man will be scarcer than fine gold.  Even so, reducing 7 billion by 99.9% still leaves 7 million (if I did the math right).  And who will the multitude of immortal saints govern?  Just thinking out loud.

So as I continued to ponder this yesterday a thought materialized; Zechariah 14.

16 "And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

This chapter is a day of the Lord narrative;

1 "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh,"

5 "...and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee."

9 "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

6 "And it shall come to pass in that day," 

And it concerns the Day of the Lord and the armies which came against Jerusalem.

3 "Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations"

12 "And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem;"

So from verse 16 the matter is essentially settled; at least in my mind, unless there exists other evidence to reform my thinking. There will be some left of the armies that came against Jerusalem at the final battle in the valley of decision, and they will be required to come up to Jerusalem every year to worship the King of Kings. 

Reading into the text a bit it would seem these people are at least in part the ones who populate the earth, along with any others that may have survived elsewhere, and possibly the Jews the fled to the great rift in the Mount of Olives. Though I have no definitive answer about the destiny of this group.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Keras said:

Diaste, Revelation 21:1-7 is clear; the new Jerusalem comes down to earth after the Millennium. Note in verse 7 that it is the heritage of the Victorious peoples.  That is; of every faithful believer, all who stood strong in their faith during all the trials and tribulations.  Please do not think that ethnicity has any significance then. Or now!

 

Yes, I too feel the possibility that Rev 19-22 ischronological. In some cases the story in Rev is a chronology, but not strictly so. I still have a few doubts about a hard chronology of the final 4 chapters. 

For instance, if the great earthquake destroys all the cities, including Jerusalem, what city do the people who are left from all the armies that fought against Jerusalem go to to worship the Lord year after year? Not only would the great earthquake make all the cities fall, as the scripture says, but when Jesus, "...shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley;" This very great valley will swallow Jerusalem as the Mount of Olives is about 1.5 miles directly east of Jerusalem. So is a very great valley less than 1.5 miles long?

Even if it is, Rev 19:19 "And the great city(Jerusalem?) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell... 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found." 

I'm thinking modern Jerusalem no longer exists when Jesus stands on the Mount of Olives, time for a new one. 

I don't see any reason not to judge Rev 19-22 as concurrently/successive. Chronology with concurrent elements. Much of Rev is written this way. Every novel is like this. Each character or event is visited at or near the same moment in the timeline, and then the timeline is advanced, or the timeline is advanced prior and the narrative recedes bringing the character and events up to date. At this point I feel Rev 19-22 is like this, several events occurring near the same moment in the timeline. Not definitively, but based on Zech 14 there exists reasonable cause for this view.

Edited by Diaste

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

So as I continued to ponder this yesterday a thought materialized; Zechariah 14.

16 "And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

This chapter is a day of the Lord narrative;

1 "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh,"

5 "...and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee."

9 "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

6 "And it shall come to pass in that day," 

And it concerns the Day of the Lord and the armies which came against Jerusalem.

3 "Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations"

12 "And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem;"

So from verse 16 the matter is essentially settled; at least in my mind, unless there exists other evidence to reform my thinking. There will be some left of the armies that came against Jerusalem at the final battle in the valley of decision, and they will be required to come up to Jerusalem every year to worship the King of Kings. 

Reading into the text a bit it would seem these people are at least in part the ones who populate the earth, along with any others that may have survived elsewhere, and possibly the Jews the fled to the great rift in the Mount of Olives. Though I have no definitive answer about the destiny of this group.

Good observation.  One thing to point out though in verse 16 is that the people left in those nations aren't necessarily a part of their army that went against Jerusalem, they are just part of the same nation.  Verse 12 and following indicates what happens to the armies.

You also get the sense from Zechariah 14 that the day of the Lord is not some protracted "day" that spans years before He returns.

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