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Blood Bought 1953

Musings in regard to Hell

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38 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

This has no merit to anything... What ever Jesus said it was truth so parable or no this was the reality after death or it was a lie....

Not only was it a parable, but it describes a scenario prior to judgement. Now you're trying to bolster the idea that the rich man will forever be tormented by referring once again going back to Revelation and reading the apocalyptic symbolism therein as non-symbolic and using it to reinterpret the rest of scripture. So when I challenged you to offer a clear didactic teaching not relying on parable or symbolism you offer a parable interpreted through the lens of the symbolism in Revelation, lol. How exactly is this supposed to show that the entire ECT doctrine isn't built on taking parable and apocalyptic symbols out of context? 
You don't even realise that you're actually proving my point.

Quote

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

At least you're also trying to offer another verse, this time the undying worms and the unquenchable fire. It seems that now you're just going through the handful of ECT prooftexts and hoping something works. As such I'll leave you with an excerpt of my opening statement in the debate on annihilationism, where you can read responses to the typical ECT prooftexts including the passage you mentioned. Those text actually form part of the case for annihilationism.

Unquenchable fire

Mat 3:12  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire

What traditionalists do here is make logical inferences that look as follows:

1: The fire is unquenchable.
2: To be unquenchable is to burn forever.
3: To burn forever requires fuel that’ll last forever
4: It is the unsaved that fuels the fire
5: Therefore the unsaved will burn forever.

This is roughly the thought process that drives the belief that this is a proof-text for the traditionalist point of view. The problem is that premise 2 is a false premise, because this is not how “Unquenchable fire” is understood in Biblical language.

Let’s see if we can interpret the phrase in light of a clear passage elsewhere in scripture that might help us understand what the bible means by “unquenchable fire”:

Jer 17:27  But if ye will not hearken unto Me… then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.  

Eze 20:47-48  … Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein. And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched. 

Scripture then, seems to define an unquenchable fire as a fire that cannot be stopped from completely devouring that which it burns. This aligns even with our English language use of the word “quench”, which means to put out a fire. It’s not a description of how long a fire burns.

So if we look at how the “unquenchable fire” is used in scripture, it seems to better support the Annihilationist view, which is of a fire that consumes and devours rather than merely tormenting that which it burns.

 

Immortal worms

Mar 9:48  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 

We’ve already covered unquenchable fire, but what about these pesky immortal worms?

Let’s look at the traditionalist inferences:

1: The worms don’t die
2: Worms that don’t die live forever
3: The worms are eating the unsaved
4: Therefore the unsaved are eaten forever

Let’s see if we can get some clarity on what’s going on here, by looking at the passage in the Old Testament that Jesus is quoting here:

Isa 66:24  And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. 

The scene in Isaiah 66 depicts carcases being eaten by worms and being burnt up by fire. It’s not a picture of living souls being tormented by fires that burn forever and worms that never die.

The significance of the worms is rather interesting, because in Jewish culture it was considered shameful for a dead body to see decay. Bodies needed to be properly buried, not left out in the open to be devoured by scavengers, maggots and fire. The picture that Isaiah is describing, and which Jesus referencing is a picture of unstoppable decay and corruption.

We see a similar situation in Jeremiah:

Jer 7:33  And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.  

This time we have, not worms, but birds feeding on the dead bodies, and the description that there’ll be nobody to ‘shoo’ them away, and thus stopping the shameful consumption of these dead bodies.

We see the emphasis on not seeing decay clearly in the following Psalm:

Psa 16:9-11  Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being rejoices; my flesh also dwells secure. For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

This Psalm expresses David’s desire to be protected from his enemies, to not be dishonoured by having his body rotting on the battle field, but the psalm is also looking ahead to Christ whose body didn’t see decay and corruption but was risen on the third day, as we see here:

Act 2:31  he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.  

So when Jesus is talking about the unsaved being burnt with unquenchable fire and eaten by worms that won’t die, he is simply saying that nothing will prevent the shameful destruction of the unsaved. The consumption of the bodies won’t be prematurely stopped by the death of the maggots, and the burning up won’t be prematurely stopped by quenching the fires.

 

Edited by LuftWaffle

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10 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

looks like you haven't anything new here just the same ole rhetoric … your view is so ridiculous it's like I should start running around warning everyone their going to sleep... where's the fear in that :24: But there is fear in The Lord and hell is why!

The Bible says we shouldn't fear those who can only kill the body but not the soul, but instead we should fear Him who can completely destroy both in Gehenna. Gehenna of course being the place Jeremiah described as a valley of slaughter. 
The idea that facing judgement and execution by the living God is laughable, and just like going to sleep, shows that perhaps too much of popular theology is driven by the hedonistic impulse of avoiding pain, than a true desire to regain what mankind lost, which is access to the tree of life, so that one may eat and live forever. While the bible consistently describes the gospel as a life and death matter, popular theology has reduced the gospel to a matter of location, an eternal holiday resort or an eternal medieval dungeon.

And then we wonder why young people nowadays don't respect the sanctity of life and instead are only concerned with seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. 

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On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:22 PM, LuftWaffle said:

The Bible says we shouldn't fear those who can only kill the body but not the soul, but instead we should fear Him who can completely destroy both in Gehenna. Gehenna of course being the place Jeremiah described as a valley of slaughter. 

Luke 12:5

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Now it is important to rightly divide and here is where scholarship helps us to do so
[snip]

    

NT:1067

 

 

In the NT Gehenna is presented always as the final place of punishment into which the wicked are cast after the last judgment. It is a place of torment both for body and soul as indicated in Matt 5:29,30, "It is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body go into Gehenna" (a.t.). The Lord Jesus did not have the living in mind here, but the dead, for it is not until after the final judgment that the wicked are cast into Gehenna. At the resurrection, the spirit and the body are united. Both are punished in Gehenna. Gehenna as the last punishment was conceived of also as the worst. It slays both soul (the incorporeal spiritual part of man) and body (the corporeal) — not in the absolute sense of annihilation, but relatively in that it permitted a change of state that could suffer the pain and punishment of Gehenna. Thus in Matt 10:28, "Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" (a.t. [cf. Luke 12:5]). Gehenna is conceived of as a fire (Matt 5:22; 18:9); an unquenchable fire (Mark 9:45); a place where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48); a "furnace of fire" (Matt 13:42,50); "the outer darkness" (Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30); a "lake of fire" (Rev 19:20; 20:10,14,15; 21:8). Because fire is often used as an apocalyptic symbol of judgment (especially eschatological judgment) it is difficult to insist that the flames are material. Nevertheless, such a symbol clearly represents a real and painful judgment. Hades, the place of the disembodied wicked spirits, is finally cast into it (Rev 20:14). In the NT, Hades and Gehenna seem never to be confused together. See ‎Hád¢s (86), the place of the departed souls often translated "hell," but mistakenly so; ‎ábussos (12), abyss, bottomless pit; ‎tartaróœ (5020), to incarcerate in eternal torment, spoken of the fallen angels.

 Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament © 1992 by AMG International, Inc. Revised Edition, 1993
[snip]

The Bible says we are to rightly divide the Word of truth

2 Tim 2:15|
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV

So going from OT law into the NT where Christ brought New Light or better using law to discern grace is incompatible to proper hermeneutic process... 
The Law teaches the hard cold fact of yes or no … providing us no hope for ourselves in works! The gulf of repentance is leaving the old and being born unto God for His use in drawing others to Himself... imputation of Jesus' Life to all who come...

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:22 PM, LuftWaffle said:

The idea that facing judgement and execution by the living God is laughable, and just like going to sleep, shows that perhaps too much of popular theology is driven by the hedonistic impulse of avoiding pain, than a true desire to regain what mankind lost, which is access to the tree of life, so that one may eat and live forever.

While you are laughing Jesus didactically taught

Mark 9:42-48

42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.  43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched —   44 where

'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.' 

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched —   46 where

'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.' 

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire —   48 where

'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.' 
NKJV


Hermeneutic principle  'if the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense' seems to elude you...

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:22 PM, LuftWaffle said:

While the bible consistently describes the gospel as a life and death matter, popular theology has reduced the gospel to a matter of location, an eternal holiday resort or an eternal medieval dungeon.

humanistic thought has no value to the Biblical facts...

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:22 PM, LuftWaffle said:

And then we wonder why young people nowadays don't respect the sanctity of life and instead are only concerned with seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. 

psychology has no relevance to the renewing of mind... but Scripture alone renews to the eternal weight of what will be will be...
 

Rev 20:10-15

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

Mark 9:42-48

42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.  43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched —   44 where

'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.' 

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched —   46 where

'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.' 

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire —   48 where

'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.' 

 

Edited by enoob57

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Hello there,

There is only one way to be sure of the testimony of Scripture regarding the subject of Hell, and that by looking at the meaning of the middle English word itself, as it was before tradition and philosophy and mis-usage played their part upon our conception of it.

* The meaning of this word, chosen by the translators, to translate the Hebrew and Greek words, 'Sheol', 'Gehenna' ,'Hades' and 'Tartaroo' is - 'to hide away', as a body is hidden away after death; and of the place of the dead, which is the grave, or 'gravedom'.

* The words, Sheol, Gehenna, Hades and Tartaroo, should also be looked at, and their various translations and Scriptural usage examined, to see how they are used, within their contexts by the Holy Spirit, in His Word. 

* The story of the rich man and Lazarus should be understood by taking into consideration to whom it was spoken and why?  The Pharisaic tradition maintained that the dead could communicate with the living; that, along with much that is illustrated by this story, is to show the hypocrisy and error of such teaching. That it is not to be understood as teaching or doctrine is obvious, for it contradicts the testimony of Scripture upon the matter of the state of the dead, and our Lord would never teach in contradiction to the Word of God.

* The only word of the four words so translated which speaks of Hell as a place of fire and of punishment is 'Gehenna', and that has a future application, during the day of judgment.  The bodies thrown into those flames will be dead bodies, for final destruction as a punishment, having been refused burial; they are not for the purpose of subjecting conscious mankind to interminable punishment.

Praise God! For His Word.

In Christ Jesus

Chris

 

Edited by Christine

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Hello again,

The whole doctrine concerning Hell as a place of eternal conscious punishment is built upon the other doctrine concerning the state of the dead, and of the immortality of the soul.  The fact that 'the soul that sinneth it shall die', is spiritualized away, and made of none effect by tradition. 

'All have sinned and come short of the glory of God', and all will surely die.  That there is no consciousness in death is Scriptures testimony, yet man would prefer to believe Satan's lie, 'ye shall not surely die'.

The destination of all prior to resurrection is the grave, and without the power of the resurrection all men would remain within it.  However, praise God! the believer has the hope of resurrection, and is considered by God to be merely 'asleep in Christ' awaiting the fulfillment of that promise.

Heaven or Hell as a destination for the dead is therefore unsustainable, for the dead go nowhere, they are dead bodies, their spirit (or breath of life) having returned to God Who gave it. There is no life apart from resurrection.

In Christ Jesus

Chris

 

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On 5/10/2018 at 4:49 PM, Hawkins said:

You don't know what you are talking about basically.

"My understanding is that the scientific community [generalizing] agrees that there is evidence for that claim."

That lies the key! You don't rely on evidence to get to a true. Instead you rely on putting faith in a middle man (our scientists in this case) to get to a truth. That's the way how vast majority of humans get to the truth that black holes exist!

You (and everyone of us) don't have the evidence. We trust (with faith) that our scientists have the evidence. In this case, our scientists act as the witnesses of the existence of black holes. That's the way how humans get to a truth.

 

Similarly, we don't have the direct evidence of God. We trust (with faith) that those eye-witnesses (who martyred themselves for what to be witnessed) have the evidence. That's the same way how we get to a truth of any kind.

We don't have the direct evidence of what happened in history. We put faith in what have been written down by historians in the past to get to what could  possibly happened. They are the witnesses (the middle man) in this case.

 

Daily news behaves in the same way. We don't dig evidence to verify what have been broadcast. We trust (with faith) that our media made up of reporters and journalists as the "middle man"/witnesses for us get to the facts about what are happening in this world.

The Bible is good enough as direct evidence for me. Yet the Bible equates hell with Hades, the temporary place of torment. It's hot but even a drop of water gives relief according to the story of Lazarus and the rich man.  Kinda like a feverish person with a cool cloth. 

Rev 20 says that Hades is temporary and will be thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death for all the unsaved. Nothing in the Bible hints that there is any further torment after the second death, but many many scriptures say that the unsaved perish. They are no more after the second death. That is the Bible version. Man's doctrine is that God will torment the unsaved with resurrected flesh for eternity. Man's doctrine is not found the Bible. God has no wish to prolong their pain, he will throw them in the lake , wipe away our tears, and they will be remembered no more.

Edited by ARGOSY

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On 9/6/2018 at 3:11 PM, Alan Hales said:

The Bible says the lake of fire is the second death,  Rev 20: 10--15. And unlike you, I believe the Bible.

I have given you Biblical facts that the believers go to heaven when their bodies die, and unbelievers will be tormented for EVER  and EVER.

Please read Jn 3: 16 again, It says the BELIEVERS shall not perish, It  DOESN'T say the unbelievers shall not perish, DOES IT.

What religion are you, Because your not a Christian.

Make up your mind, do unbelievers perish , or are they consciously tormented forever?  My Bible says perish.

No verse says the unsaved are tormented forever and ever, the nearest says from age to age, in a location and timing  before the lake of fire event.

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10 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

Make up your mind, do unbelievers perish , or are they consciously tormented forever?  My Bible says perish.

No verse says the unsaved are tormented forever and ever, the nearest says from age to age, in a location and timing  before the lake of fire event.

You know what I mean by the unbelievers perishing, [Destroyed, tormented] for ever. Rev 20: 10--15. Whereas Jn 3: 16 says the believers shall not perish. As for, "Forever", In Rev 20: 10. The Greek word is, "Aion", and it means, "Always, A Continuance". And It doesn't say BEFORE the lake of fire event, DOES IT. You have your own gospel, "The gospel according to Argosy".

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5 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Make up your mind, do unbelievers perish , or are they consciously tormented forever?  My Bible says perish.

No verse says the unsaved are tormented forever and ever, the nearest says from age to age, in a location and timing  before the lake of fire event.

 

The Lake of Fire, is the eternal Hell and perdition of wicked men, demons, fallen angels, and all rebellious creatures of all ages who have ever rebelled against God, and who have refused to repent when they could have. It is called "The Gehenna of Fire" and is always translated Hell (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43-45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). This prison is also called "the second death, which is the lake of fire" (Rev. 2:11; 20:6, 14). This final Hell was prepared for the devil and all his angels (Matt. 25:41-46), and for all other rebells, and it is ETERNAL in duration (Rev. 14:9-14; 20:10-15; Isa. 66:22-24; Matt. 25:46).

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1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

 

The Lake of Fire, is the eternal Hell and perdition of wicked men, demons, fallen angels, and all rebellious creatures of all ages who have ever rebelled against God, and who have refused to repent when they could have. It is called "The Gehenna of Fire" and is always translated Hell (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43-45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). This prison is also called "the second death, which is the lake of fire" (Rev. 2:11; 20:6, 14). This final Hell was prepared for the devil and all his angels (Matt. 25:41-46), and for all other rebells, and it is ETERNAL in duration (Rev. 14:9-14; 20:10-15; Isa. 66:22-24; Matt. 25:46).

Let's see if this doctrine of eternal torment stands up to biblical analysis .

Gehenna was a dumpsite outside Jerusalem where they used to dump and burn bodies. Jesus liked to compare the destiny of the wicked with Gehenna. Yes the fire doesn't go out, but there is nothing about eternal torment in those verses.

 

Yes the fire is eternal.  If I row a boat in an eternal lake, is the boat eternal? If a human is thrown into an eternal fire, does the human become eternal? 

Only Matthew 25 says the punishment is eternal. This can also apply to annihilated people, never again will they regain consciousness, their death lasts forever. Their punishment is eternal.

 

Isaiah 66 is not in context of this discussion. It is irrelevant and specifically refers to DEAD bodies outside Jerusalem. Often exposure to nuclear radiation will prevent bodies from rotting because the bacteria die. Yet worms increase their life span under radiation.

 

 

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      What is God's purpose for coming to earth to die as Jesus The Christ on a Cross?
      What is He doing?...What is He alone solving, that all our 10 commandment keeping and holy lifestyle can never solve, which is WHY HE had to solve it? ?
      And right here is what is so often misunderstood, or not taught correctly, and this is why so many people who mean well, and love Jesus, or would like to love him, do not understand <>WHAT IS<> the actual reason that God came here to die.

      So what is that reason?
      The reason, is that keeping the law, the 10 commandments, and doing good works, confessing sin, and living as holy as we can, could not make us acceptable to God..
      And here is the "catch 22".... It also can't AFTER you are saved.
      And right here is where "Legalism vs Grace" becomes the touchstone of constant fighting on forums, and everywhere else that it can show up where believers WILL clash.
      (Apparently this clash became such a long standing fight and fury on this forum that members here are barred from posting- fighting about it.)

      It is a fact and statement of the CROSS that the law and the 10 Commandments can't make you righteous, they can only show you that you are unrighteous., as that is the actual purpose of the Law, as well as outlining what God expects regarding our basic moral conduct & behavior, once we are born again.
      So, how can it be that half the body of Christ is trying to keep all this, all these works, and they believe that this is "keeping them saved".
      Whereas the other half of the body of Christ is trusting in Jesus to keep them saved.
      So, do you see the line in the sand?
      Its this " What is keeping you SAVED"....that is the minefield of theological confusion.
      THATS the fight.
      Legalism vs Grace.
      Its happening on every forum like this one, and its the reason for 5000 denominations that don't agree, and 300 bibles that don't agree.
      This issue started with Paul and his preaching of "justification by Faith" >alone, and he wrote the letter to the Galatians that talks about it, and explains it.
      2000 yrs later, this issue of Legalism vs Grace is still a fist fight between those who say they are "Christians".

      Isn't it interesting to realize that if the 10 commandments, or lawkeeping, or living holy, could save you or keep you saved, if that were the truth, then Jesus could have stayed in Heaven and saved Himself some PAIN.....
      But ita not the case.
      Now im not certain what you have been taught, but i teach that you "present your body a living sacrifice" and you to "live holy as God is holy", not to save yourself or keep yourself saved, but because this is what you should do, and what God expects, .. because you ARE saved.
      The Legalist would argue that .."no, you do it to stay saved", and if you don't then you're not.
      I wonder, reader, what you believe.

      So, leaving all that now, lets just look at the problem that God had to come here and solve for us, as to look at this, is to understand the reason for Salvation which is to understand Salvation.
      Our problem we had, before we were saved, is only one thing, one issue only. And God Himself had to solve it, because we can't.
      We are born, and we get older, and we don't have any righteousness.
      None.
      And so, God can't accept us, because we are UNRIGHTEOUS. 
      This is "lost", "unsaved"....hellbound = we don't have any RIGHTEOUSNESS< as all of ours, are "filthy rags".
      So, in steps SALVATION... Down from Heaven God as The Christ arrives... The Cross has been raised.... As God bleeding out on the "tree" has come down from Heaven to give us HIS righteousness so that He can accept us, based on THAT.......and for no other reason will He accept you, or me.
      God, literally became a man, and died on a Cross, to GIVE US "the righteousness of Christ". (God's very own righteousness).
      And that is what salvation actually is....Its God coming to earth to give us His righteousness so that HE can accept us, as by giving us His very righteousness, this makes us acceptable to God.
      Welcome to Salvation.
      Salvation is only.... "what makes you acceptable to God"....and that is one thing, its GOD'S Righteousness, becoming ours.
      A born again person, has literally BECOME "the righteousness of Christ", and Christ is GOD.

      To say that God's Grace is amazing, is really the least of what it is...
      How can you describe the wonder of God, dying to give you His righteousness in place of your unrighteousness, as a free Gift?
      Is there a word that can even claim to honor this spiritual transaction enough?
      Just one.
      LOVE. Agape` Love. God is LOVE  
       
      blessings,
       
       
      <B><


         
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       













       













































       
       
    • By Behold
      John 3:16, the most universally "known" bible verse ever created...(probably), actually teaches OSAS, and is in fact OSAS.
      They are the same.
      God's Grace is OSAS
      John 3:16 is OSAS

      Let me show you.
      Lets study this together.

      So....once again, let me define OSAS, so that you understand it properly, as there are many liars let loose in the world who have created a false misunderstanding about this term, and so, you need to know what it really means. The Truth.
      Here is what it really means...
      OSAS really means... What saved you.......keeps you saved.
      We are KEPT saved by What saved Us.
      = We are saved by JESUS, and we are Kept saved by Jesus.  Philippians 1:6 
      Hebrews 12:2
      OSAS means, that the Blood of Jesus, that saved us, keeps us saved.
      Thats it.
      Thats what it means.

      And here is John 3:16 that explains it as i have just defined it.

      John 3:16 "For God so loved the world......that HE GAVE His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES IN JESUS, would not PERISH, but HAS eternal-everylasting life."

      This verse is one of the ways the NT defines OSAS, and there are many many others.

      So, lets look at this scripture, in LIGHT of OSAS that means....>"we are saved by Jesus and we are KEPT SAVED by Jesus. = OSAS

      Now, im going to drill down into this verse a little bit for you, so that you can get the wide perspective of it, in case you are a preacher, teacher, .... or maybe you want to do a Sunday School lesson on this verse, at some point. Therefore, (as always) i'll rightly divide it for you, using in context NT verses that support it.

      John 3:16........."For God so love the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son.

      So, how did God give Him?.......God gave Jesus THE Christ, to the WORLD,  as a virgin born male, who is the "2nd Adam" who does not literally have an earthly father, which means Jesus is not born with a fallen Adamic (sin nature). Jesus's spiritual nature, is God, because Jesus is God.
      So then..
      He lives a sinless life, and goes to the Cross and dies there..... bearing our Sin. (God so Love the world) the verse says and this is why and to whom Jesus was sacrified ...... And once this is accomplished...(Cross = Salvation), then Jesus says from the Cross...>"it is finished". And that is correct. Salvation, The Blood Atonement is now a completed OFFERING, to the WORLD, to all who would come.... Its a finished Salvation that is waiting to be given for free, ALL THE TIME, EVERYDAY, to anyone who will by FAITH "believe on the name of Jesus, and you shall be SAVED".

      Then.....and here comes OSAS.. you read in the verse that the born again who have obeyed this verse, (BELIEVED) will never "PERISH".....so, that is explained in John 10:28 were Jesus says you will never "perish", (can't go to hell, can't be damned)(eternal security)... and the born again are also GIVEN .. (you dont earn it) "Eternal Life". 
      Listen Saint...
      Eternal life IS not a time frame.. ok? This phrase does not mean..."infinity and forever"..but rather, this is the POWER OF JESUS created concept that refers to living with Him and God, in the family of God, as the Body Of Christ, in ETERNITY.
      "Eternal life", is Jesus Himself, who IS the "resurrection and the LIFE".....
      See that "life"...... THAT is eternal Life.......and here it is again...... John 14:6... Jesus saying....."i am The Way, The Truth, and THE LIFE"......and there it is again.
      Jesus is talking not about a time frame, but He is talking about HIMSELF< who IS Eternal Life... John 11:25 .. So,= this is OSAS......the fact that if you have Jesus..."Christ in you", and you are "in Christ", then because JESUS IS ETERNAL LIFE< then you have it right now, because you have HIM right now, and He has YOU right now
      = OSAS.
      Your Eternal Life, does not start after you are DEAD...... You have it NOW.
      You, the born again, are translated from darkness to Light.....right now.
      Jesus is the Light of the World and you are Children of the Light.....right NOW.
      Or as John says in  1 John 5:13 "i write these words so that you will KNOW".
      Know what?
      What does John want you to KNOW? ? ?
      That if you have BELIEVED on CHRIST, then you have ETERNAL LIFE.
      HAVE IT.........not waiting for it....but HAVE IT, = right now.
      So, see how ALL that fits like a glove with John 3:16 ?

      This is the interesting thing about OSAS.....This understanding, is all over the NT.
      The NT is filled with verses that speak about how Jesus saves you and keeps you saved.
      Paul will tell you. John just told you, and in fact the entire NT is the Blood of Jesus being written to you as a revelation of God, and how He saved you using a Cross and KEEPS YOU Saved with the Blood of Christ that was shed for you.
      = OSAS.

      blessings,

      <dw><
    • By Ryan2203
      Is watching certain movies with swear words and saying swear words a serious sin? Will I go to hell for it?
    • By Haррy Felix
      Every now and then I can use a bit of confirmation that I'm doing the right things that Jesus ordered, as you may have noticed. That the signs point in the right direction, with an eye on the afterlife i.e. the Real Life. In my working life I developed a lot of 'scorecards' and now I found an interesting one that estimates or simulates no less than the future of my soul: Heaven or hell?
      All a bit presumptuous maybe, and I therefore really hope that this Achille Christian guy has thought very very well about the 40 questions an angel asks me in this 'game'. With God's Mercy set to 50% I'm going to Heaven all right. I'll have to try with 100% and 0%. For Roman Catholics, purgatory was optionally included.
      Maybe somebody on this forum is willing to make the effort of checking if the questions make good sense (I think reproducing the list here is not allowed). We still won't see the actual weighting, though. I saw a free version with 15 questions. 
       
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