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Blood Bought 1953

Musings in regard to Hell

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The most unique aspect of Our God 'IS' His complete an total ability in all things without end...

Luke 1:37
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible
KJV

If this alone was all God disclosed to us would it not be enough to desire to be with Him the more?

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On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 12:31 PM, ezekiel said:

 I would think that if satan is the cause of sin then all should be on his account. And also I would think that then all is his being sin, being that then, all Israel will be saved, also in a matter of time on this Earth or the New Earth.  Just as one, Christ you live, saved. Then one satan you die, condemned.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Death and hell and the sea (cosmos) will be cleaned out for those in it and will be judged. They will carry out their term.

I saw "carry out their term". That is a very good point. I've been doing a lot of study of the greek words Aion, Aionion and Aionios along with their Hebrew counterpart. I believe that when we see the words eternity, eternal, forever, etc. in our English bibles, often a more precise translation would be age or of the age. It's interesting that in many cases where "eternal" simply doesn't fit the context, the English translations will use the word "world". If this is the case, the universalists may have a point. That is, the "lost" may be purified and then be saved, while the saved avoid the purification and enter the next age (as opposed to eternity), while the lost sit it out and are then purified.

This guy gets into the words pretty effectively:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kfKQJfT0C8

 

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On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 12:48 PM, Yowm said:

Satan introduced sin through deceit and temptation. But Adam and Eve are responsible for rebellion against God, satan did not make them sin.

True. But then there is what Paul says about Pharaoh in Romans 9. God created him to serve his purpose. God foreknew what every single person to ever live would do and what choices they would make. The road is wide. The idea that God created most of mankind for the purpose of suffering for eternity is not only goofy, but it does not fit in the least with the personality of the God of the bible. Also, if you read Gods admonitions regarding how to treat others, it makes him a "do as I say, not as I do" god.

Finally, if God is truly all knowing and all powerful, it is odd that he will lose most of mankind to forever punishment. i.e. Satan wins.

I don't see God as a loser.

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12 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Just as Jesus is 100% God/ 100% man, so (I believe) God is 100% sovereign while simultaneously holding man 100% responsible for his actions.

True. Even in Romans 9 Paul said we have no business asking God why he holds us responsible. But his answer is rather deflecting. It's as if he's hiding something.

For me, I sort of see mankind as the pots created by a potter as Romans 9 calls it. i.e. God made me the way I am for a purpose. And that particular chapter is part of what now makes it impossible for me to accept the ECT teaching. I'm strongly now in the CI camp and have empathy for the universalist camp. The latter holds water to a degree once you really get into the meaning of aion, aionion, aionios and its Hebrew equivalent.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=aionion+hebrew

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-

JUST as Christians (before the rapture) are "absent from the body (dead)  and present with the LORD......, Hell is a type of "holding tank" where Christ rejectors end up instantly following their death, or a way to teach this in Sunday School (for the teachers here), would be...."Absent from the body, and present in HELL".  And THERE The LOST await Rev. 20:11,... and from there, they end up in a final and eternal place that was originally created for "the devil and his angels".

And why does God allow them to go there ??  ... Its because they chose the "other" eternal destination that is a FREE WILL option for us all.    And why do they end up with the Devil and his Angels in the "second death", which is the "lake of fire"?    Its because >  A.)  Christians end up with their Father in eternity, and  B.) >  Unbelievers end up with THEIR Father, for all eternity, or as Jesus said of those who REJECT HIM,  =  "YOU ARE OF YOUR FATHER = THE DEVIL" so in the end, you, (reader)  if you are a Christ Rejector, will go to YOUR Father.

Really Bad choice.

Don't choose that.

Edited by Behold
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On 5/10/2018 at 11:12 AM, Bonky said:

If you're asking if I've personally spent time to verify everything that scientists believe the answer is no, I'll wager I'm not that different from every single other human that's ever existed.  If I wanted to I could start researching anything that I'm not convinced of and see if it really has merit.  

I find it very bizarre that you're harping on what we know and don't know today regarding things we can [often times] physically check and verify; but your theistic views are anchored around things that may have happened in antiquity recorded by "eye witness" or oral tradition etc etc.   You're not exactly showing me a better path to truth.  

My only question for you is, if you yourself don't have the evidence, what makes you so sure that earth is revolving around the sun?

 

It is your faith! That's the simple answers, if you are willing to give it a thought without side tracking the question.

 

Faith is how you get to the truth without evidence. That's what faith is. On the other hand, you don't need faith if it's made evident to you. We humans usually get to a truth by putting faith in an "eyewitness" we believe that, 1) they are in direct contact with the truth, such as the scientists are more professional in dealing with black holes and such, we don't and can't mostly deal with the subject ourselves. 2) they must be trustworthy and credible for us to put our faith in. These 2 factors are generally how humans use to approach a truth. We don't dig evidence as you suggest or seem to suggest.

 

On the other hand, you sound as if you get to every single truth by evidence (while you do not), simply because you are educated by our secular education system ever since childhood without questioning it enough. You are not wrong in that evidence can lead to truths, however it's an ideal not applicable in our reality most of time. It's thus a stumbling block which blind-folded you from seeing the more fundamental and more powerful way of how humans can approach a truth (virtually of any kind) by faith (i.e., without evidence presented).

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On 5/15/2018 at 12:20 PM, Hawkins said:

My only question for you is, if you yourself don't have the evidence, what makes you so sure that earth is revolving around the sun?

What makes you so sure the Earth isn't filled with bubble gum in the center?  

On 5/15/2018 at 12:20 PM, Hawkins said:

It is your faith! That's the simple answers, if you are willing to give it a thought without side tracking the question.

I don't deny that I trust well established "facts" by the scientific community.  

On 5/15/2018 at 12:20 PM, Hawkins said:

Faith is how you get to the truth without evidence.

Faith is also how some parents pray for their child to be healed and they die because they weren't properly cared for.  Having faith to fill a gap that you can't fill yourself [via evidence etc] is one thing, having "faith" as a primary means of latching onto something that is "true" and then defending it no matter what is where you lose me.

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Scholars have cited these 5 facts to allege punishment in Hell for a limited period of time.

(1) In ancient rabbinic Judaism, Jesus' preferred term for Hell, Gehenna, is a realm of finite punishment.  Jews with mediocre piety, for example, are  alleged to spend only one year in Gehenna.  Similarly, Jesus' uses the image of Hell as a debtor's prison from which ultimate release is possible (Matthew 5:25-26; especially 18:34: Luke 12;57-59).

(2) In Luke 12:48-48 Jesus uses the imagery of "few stripes" and "many stripes"  with reference to postmortem punishment.  "Few stripes" is a finite image that implies ultimate relief.

(3) Jesus preaches to evil discarnate "spirits in prison" (a common term for Hell).  By implication his audience can respond to His preaching and gain release (See 1 Peter 3:9; 4:6).

(4) The Corinthian believers practice proxy baptism for the unsaved dead as a means of securing salvation for them.  This proxy baptism is one means by which God will become "all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28-29).

(5) In both Hebrew (olam) and Greek (aionios), the word translated "eternal" does not need to mean that. "Olam" can mean "for a long time" and aionios can mean "agelong/" 

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6 hours ago, MadHermit said:

Scholars have cited these 5 facts to allege punishment in Hell for a limited period of time.

(1) In ancient rabbinic Judaism, Jesus' preferred term for Hell, Gehenna, is a realm of finite punishment.  Jews with mediocre piety, for example, are  alleged to spend only one year in Gehenna.  Similarly, Jesus' uses the image of Hell as a debtor's prison from which ultimate release is possible (Matthew 5:25-26; especially 18:34: Luke 12;57-59).

(2) In Luke 12:48-48 Jesus uses the imagery of "few stripes" and "many stripes"  with reference to postmortem punishment.  "Few stripes" is a finite image that implies ultimate relief.

(3) Jesus preaches to evil discarnate "spirits in prison" (a common term for Hell).  By implication his audience can respond to His preaching and gain release (See 1 Peter 3:9; 4:6).

(4) The Corinthian believers practice proxy baptism for the unsaved dead as a means of securing salvation for them.  This proxy baptism is one means by which God will become "all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28-29).

(5) In both Hebrew (olam) and Greek (aionios), the word translated "eternal" does not need to mean that. "Olam" can mean "for a long time" and aionios can mean "agelong/" 

Purgatory and universalism is what is being described in the above qoute and is appealing to unbelievers and works based religions because it allows them to continue on in a sinful life. However, scripture paints a different story. The bible teaches that for all our efforts, we can not save ourselves from sin and death. God declared that for the wages of sin, death is the penalty. That is why Jesus died on the cross. Because in dying on the cross, he was able to fully pay the debt that we ourselves are not able to pay. The believers in bible times faced and endured difficulties, hardships and mistreatment. The apostles would not have spoken of maintaining faith and perseverance in spite of it all, if believer's could wait till after death. There would be no reason to persevere in faith and trust in Jesus if we could get there by our own merits. 

Universalism and purgatory denies the work of Christ on the cross. They fall short of the finished work of Christ on the cross alone. Both of these deceive people by having them believe that they can get to heaven by their own power instead of relying on Jesus to save them. It is saying that the work Jesus did on the cross was incomplete and insufficient. This is definitely a false teaching at its very core.

Jesus' death on the cross is the complete atonement for the sins of anyone who believes on Jesus to save them. The full redemptive work was accomplished on the cross alone. Jesus declared on the cross “it is finished” meaning he once and for all paid the cost. We are justified by faith. There are no sins left for purgatory to cleanse because it was all done by Jesus on the cross. This is why Jesus said, "It is finished!" The bible tells us that salvation is a free gift. It would not be free if we had to pay for it would it?

~~

 

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12 hours ago, MadHermit said:

Scholars have cited these 5 facts to allege punishment in Hell for a limited period of time.

(1) In ancient rabbinic Judaism, Jesus' preferred term for Hell, Gehenna, is a realm of finite punishment.  Jews with mediocre piety, for example, are  alleged to spend only one year in Gehenna.  Similarly, Jesus' uses the image of Hell as a debtor's prison from which ultimate release is possible (Matthew 5:25-26; especially 18:34: Luke 12;57-59).

(2) In Luke 12:48-48 Jesus uses the imagery of "few stripes" and "many stripes"  with reference to postmortem punishment.  "Few stripes" is a finite image that implies ultimate relief.

(3) Jesus preaches to evil discarnate "spirits in prison" (a common term for Hell).  By implication his audience can respond to His preaching and gain release (See 1 Peter 3:9; 4:6).

(4) The Corinthian believers practice proxy baptism for the unsaved dead as a means of securing salvation for them.  This proxy baptism is one means by which God will become "all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28-29).

(5) In both Hebrew (olam) and Greek (aionios), the word translated "eternal" does not need to mean that. "Olam" can mean "for a long time" and aionios can mean "agelong/" 

5
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Scholars have cited these 5 facts to allege punishment in Hell for a limited period of time.

What do you personal believe about hell? 

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      49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

      50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

      51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

      Matthew 24:48-51 (KJV)

      Christ comes for more reasons than to love and save. Believe, repent and reap good consequences in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour of the world.

    • By Behold
      Sometimes a believer finds that they are not happy/content/satisfied within their heart.
      This didnt happen to them overnight, but rather it happened over time, gradually.
      One day they realized that they have not felt peace, or contentment, or hope,.......... in a while.
      So what happened. >>>> ???
      Well, often its a very simple situation.  Common..... And this is...... that you are a person of real faith, who really committed to Jesus at one point.  You were all in.  totally offered, totally submitted, devoted, sold out.
      And when you were this, when you were that person, this is the REAL YOU, this is your NEW IDENTITY "In Christ".. =  you came to live within a born again place in God, a shelter and foundation in Christ, that removed you pretty much from the world.   This is your "spiritual first love", and that is how it feels when you are in that place of submission and heart willingness.
      There was that time when all that mattered was Jesus.  He was not just a name to you, or a distant figure on a cross, but He had become your wholeness, your inner completeness, your joy.
      But now, you dont find this to be who you are, anymore.  You feel so different.  So, its time that you go back to who you really are, who you are remade to be, by the Father thru Christ.
      So, simply, the problem is....once you have tasted the heavenly gift, the goodness of God, (born again)  and have known this complete inner sense of wellness & of wholeness ......then if you slip away from this spiritual position,  you will eventually really miss it.
      Understand....that once you are no longer living and walking  in the light, then you are living in the dark, and when you are there you won't realize what has happened to you, until you DO realize it.
      See, spiritual darkness is a veil over your mind, and because it veils gradually, you really don't notice it as you enter into more and more of the dark.
      And when you are truly back in the dark, you start trying to fill your "Jesus void" with stuff...with activities, with TV, with everything that the eye can find to want to do.   And when your inner diet becomes completely again all that the world has to offer you, you will eventually, if you are a true child of God, find yourself feeling empty, lifeless, unhappy..... Joyless.   As all these feelings are the  fruit of the inner man, when the inner man is feeding on the diet the dark world offers.
      Saint, the world offers you 3  feelings.    Fleshy carnal fleeting happiness.   A complete lack of satisfaction. And absolutely no contentment.    Do you feel any of this, or all of this?
      Jesus is the opposite of all those, and what He imparts into you, is not only the remedy for those negative feelings, but a God created Joy and Wholeness and Wellness in your inner being that the world does not understand and can never provide.
      WE the born again are referred to as a "peculiar people", (in some NT versions) and that is how the world SEES us, because we do not live for the world, yet, we live in it.  So, to the unbeliever, this is odd, this is not "normal" regarding their POV.
      So, if you are connecting with what im saying right now, then that is what has happened or is happening to you, IF....... you are the one who is hearing me right now.
      So, Saint..... to remedy this situation, to DEPART from this  dark place that you are become inside yourself, you have to realize that you are not who you are in there....... and that is why you can't find the peace you want in your heart for a while now.
      The real peace you want is found and is kept when you are back to who you are, back to the place of endless wholeness and joy.    Back to the loving arms and tender care of Jesus.  Back to "first love".  And you cannot ever again be satisfied or content with anything less.  And when you try, you will always feel empty, and you will always feel wrong.
      Go home....
      Jesus is the Light, and He leaves it on for you all the time.  Its where you belong now and forever.
    • By Behold
      "having a form of godliness"
      So. what is this?   What is this AS compared to being saved - born again?
      Its very simple....
      a "form of godliness" is religion. All Religion.   All Religion is a "form" of Godliness that isn't actually true Godliness.     And what is the difference between Religion and Christianity?     Well, Religion is man's self effort to touch God or become God.    Whereas Christianity is God coming to Man, as a divine Man,  to take man back home.    Religion is man's self righteous effort to get in touch with God, and Christianity is God on a Cross touching humanity with the Blood of Jesus, the Righteousness of God,  and the Love of God..
       Its, "self righteousness", which is Religion.    Look at that phrase..."self righteousness"......"self".."right'.......trying to make "self" "right" with God.......by SELF.   (Legalism)   By works, by lifestyle, by commandment keeping, and worrying about keeping the law to TRY to make "self" = "righteous".
      See it?    All Religion is an effort to ither become Divine, or to join Divinity, by SELF RIGHTEOUS EFFORT... = trying to make "self" "right"......= Self-Righteousness. = Religion.
      And THAT.......all that is Religion, and it is what 2nd Timothy is defining as "a FORM of Godliness", that "denies the Power of God".
      So, what is the Power of God that imparts Godliness?   It IS the only and sole means and method that causes you to become born again.    This is being SAVED.... This is...God giving you HIS very Righteousness, which is the defining idea  you are to comprehend so that you perfectly understand WHAT the Power of God is, exactly and in Truth.
      The power of God, is the ability of God to recreate you as a "new creation" "in Christ".  So, this, once applied to you, is not a "form of Godliness", ... Its not self righteous effort .....Its not Religion, and its not something that you can  do for yourself.   Its something that God did for you on a Cross and then offers this Power, this Redemption, this BLOOD ATONEMENT, as a "free Gift", and when you by Faith trust in Christ, God then delivers the literal Power of God thru Christ that recreates you as born again and a "new Creation in Christ".
      To simplify......  
      "A form of Godliness" is Religion..... is Legalism....is trusting in SELF, instead of trusting totally in CHRIST to save you and keep you saved.
      Listen....if you are not trusting in Christ Alone to keep you saved, then you are not really trusting in Christ.    Thats a fact.
      Real Godliness is Redemption.   Real Godliness is God making you righteous and keeping you righteous, =  through the Blood of Jesus.
      "A form of Godliness" is a person trying to be good enough, live holy enough, or reach high enough by self righteousness, as THEIR RELIGIOUS EFFORT to become one with God, and in doing this they are "denying the real power of God" which is......The Cross and God as Christ on it as total eternal Redemption offered as a free GIFT...= "the GIFT of Righteousness". .  = (Grace).
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