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Blood Bought 1953

Musings in regard to Hell

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1 hour ago, Alan Hales said:

How does my saying the spirit and soul are immortal, Contradict what I said about Paul was talking about how our souls are immortal but we must seek bodily immortality.

I didn't say 1 Cor 15: 51--53 was talking about the unsaved, I was likening the need for a mortal body. Do pay attention to what I say.

The Spirit and soul of mankind are already immortal, Lk 16: 22--31. 2 Cor 5: 1--8. Phil 1: 23. Rev 6: 9. Rev 7: 9--19

On one hand you're saying Paul was urging people to seek after immortal bodies, but on the other you claim everybody will have immortal bodies:

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Everyone's spirit and soul is immortal, and either goes to heaven or hell when the body dies. The spirit and soul of the  unsaved will come out of hell [Hades] on judgment day, [And like everyone, will have eternal bodies


My point is that Paul urging people to seek immortality makes no sense in such a case. It would be like Paul urging people to seek having 10 fingers and toes. Why seek what you will get anyway? If human beings are immortal by default, then there is nothing to seek after.

The key issue here is why is Paul talking as if life and death is at stake when you believe it's not about life or death, since everybody lives forever anyway? 

None of the verses you offer demonstrate that the unsaved will live forever:

Luke 16:22 is the parable about the rich man and Lazarus and it takes place prior to final judgement in Hades. Nothing there about the unsaved living forever.

2 Cor 5:1-8 speaks of believers. Nothing there about the unsaved living forever

Phil 1:23 Is Paul's desire to be with the Lord. Surely you're not using Paul as an example of an unsaved person who will live forever?

Rev 6:9 Prior to final judgement. Nothing here about the unsaved living forever.

Rev 7:9 Refers to the great multitude standing before the throne and praising  and worshiping God. They are not unbelievers.

So instead of pretending that you have a point which I don't understand, why don't you actually provide scripture that supports your assertion that all people (including the unsaved) will live forever.

To recap:
Your claim is that both the saved and the unsaved are bodily and soul immortal. You claimed that the Bible teaches it. I countered by saying the offer of immortality is only for the saved.
Your response was to provide verses referring to:

a) the saved - These do not help you

b) pre-judgement verses - these do not help you either. 

Edited by LuftWaffle

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7 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

Both Christians and the unsaved will die once in the first death and never die in the second death, correct? So why does Paul say one should seek immortality, if both physically and soulishly the outcome for the saved and the unsaved is the same, namely physical and spiritual immortality? Both the saved and the unsaved get immortal bodies and souls according to you. If that's the case then Paul is wasting his time teaching that we should seek that which the unbeliever will get anyway, namely immortality of body and soul.

None of the verses you offer demonstrate that the unsaved will live forever:

Luke 16:22 is the parable about the rich man and Lazarus and it takes place prior to final judgement in Hades. Nothing there about the unsaved living forever.

2 Cor 5:1-8 speaks of believers. Nothing there about the unsaved living forever

Phil 1:23 Is Paul's desire to be with the Lord. Surely you're not using Paul as an example of an unsaved person who will live forever?

Rev 6:9 Prior to final judgement. Nothing here about the unsaved living forever.

Rev 7:9 Refers to the great multitude standing before the throne and praising  and worshiping God. They are not unbelievers.

So instead of pretending that you have a point which I don't understand, why don't you actually provide scripture that supports your assertion that all people (including the unsaved) will live forever.

To recap:
Your claim is that both the saved and the unsaved are bodily and soul immortal. You claimed that the Bible teaches it. I countered by saying the offer of immortality is only for the saved.
Your response was to provide verses referring to:

a) the saved - These do not help you

b) pre-judgement verses - these do not help you either. 

Christians will not die a second death, But unbelievers will, it's called the lake of fire. Rev 20: 14.  where they will be tormented for EVER and EVER. Rev 20: 10. The Spirit and soul of mankind will live for EVER and EVER. Matt 18: 8. Matt 25: 41 & v46. 2 Thess 1: 9 all mention EVERLASTING punishment for the unbelievers.

When Paul said we should seek immortality, he was talking about the Bodily resurrection. NOT the Spirit and Souls which are already immortal.

Doesn't your Pastor teach you anything about the afterlife?.

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1 hour ago, Alan Hales said:

Christians will not die a second death, But unbelievers will, it's called the lake of fire.

Actually the opposite is true. John saw a vision of a lake of fire and the interpreting angel interpreted the images as referring to the second death. So you're confusing image with interpretation. You treat the lake of fire as real and the second death as symbolic whereas the bible does the exact opposite.

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Rev 20: 14.  where they will be tormented for EVER and EVER. Rev 20: 10. The Spirit and soul of mankind will live for EVER and EVER.

I've dealt with Rev 20 already. These are visionary images depicting the end of dominions. Just like the Harlot being thrown into the lake of fire is interpreted by the angel to John as the end of Mystery Babilon, and just as death and hades thrown into the lake of fire signifies the end of death, so too it is reasonable that the images of the dragon, the multiheaded beast and the false prophet thrown into the lake of fire and tormented, refers in real life to the end of these dominions. 

The only play the eternal conscious torment camp has is to treat the visionary symbols of Revelation as if they're literal.

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Matt 18: 8. Matt 25: 41 & v46. 2 Thess 1: 9 all mention EVERLASTING punishment for the unbelievers.

I am not denying everlasting punishment. I believe the punishment of the unsaved is permanent death not temporary death, so annihilationists affirm an everlasting punishment. 
It is Universalists who deny everlasting punishment. I am not one of them.

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When Paul said we should seek immortality, he was talking about the Bodily resurrection. NOT the Spirit and Souls which are already immortal.

You claimed everybody, those in heaven and those in hell will get eternal bodies. Are you now denying you said that.

Quote

Doesn't your Pastor teach you anything about the afterlife?.

Ok, so you've gone from confidently claiming that the bible teaches that all people are immortal, to now, after being unable to find a single verse supporting that, admitting that what you know is what your pastor taught you. This is the problem, I too was convinced that all people lived forever and that death meant separation, because I was also taught those things in Sunday school. It's only when I started looking into it myself that I realised that what I've been taught just isn't there. The reason you're having a hard time finding verses proving your claims is because you've been told what is 'biblical' instead of testing the things you've been taught against scripture, and when you read the bible you're filtering it by the received doctrine you've been taught instead of what he words actually say. This is why you cannot answer why the bible talks about life and death and yet you believe everybody is immortal, because you auto-replace life and death with popular doctrine.

For instance when you read John 3:16 you read it as follows: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish live forever in hell but live forever (in heaven).

 

Edited by LuftWaffle

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4 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

As I mentioned before Matt 25:46 is compatible with annihilation, but not compatible with eternal conscious torment.

If no lasting  hell ,  why Jesus's excessive expenditure of time and effort speaking of something that is of no lasting consequence ?

Can you name one other instance in scripture of Jesus giving warning of something that is of no consequence ?

The Jesus I know did not blow smoke . 

Edited by Unfailing Presence

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50 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

If no lasting  hell ,  why Jesus's excessive expenditure of time and effort speaking of something that is of no lasting consequence ?

Can you name one other instance in scripture of Jesus giving warning of something that is of no consequence ?

Why on earth would you think that losing out on eternal life in God's kingdom and being with Him versus facing judgement and execution at the hands of God is of no consequence? 

But since you think that ceasing to live is of no consequence, why then did Jesus have to die in our place if death isn't really the punishment that we would face? Did Jesus breathing his last breath on that cross take upon himself an inconsequential punishment, because according to you only eternal corporal punishment counts as 'real punishment'?

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The Jesus I know did not blow smoke . 

Exactly, this is why it's so strange that God would say to Adam "In the day you eat thereof you will surely die", when He really meant, "In the day you eat thereof you will live forever in torment".

Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Perhaps Jesus should have mentioned that by "die" He meant 'living forever in torment' so as not to blow smoke, right before He physically raised Lazarus from the dead, yes? And why did Jesus weep at the death of His friend Lazarus? Did He not understand that death is of no consequence?

This is one of the sad repercussions of the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. It makes people view the gift of life as inconsequential, because they've been desensitised by torture obsessed Roman influence and cartoonish images of Dante etc. Instead of a gift of life vs death as the gospel presents it, the church gradually changed it to a hedonistic choice of eternal torture vs eternal bliss.

Edited by LuftWaffle

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Actually, a better translation is in dying you shall die. 

And God is speaking to the spirit dying.  Adam did not die that day, physically.  He lived quite a while longer from ... that day. 

Edited by Cletus

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21 minutes ago, Cletus said:

Actually, a better translation is in dying you shall die. 

And God is speaking to the spirit dying.  Adam did not die that day, physically.  He lived quite a while longer from ... that day. 

Nothing about "dying you shall die" indicates that this excludes physical death and that it refers to some notion of spiritual death. As I mentioned all Young Earth Creationists (creation.com and answers in genesis has loads of articles on this for instance) believe that physical death entered into creation at this point. The text doesn't require that Adam die immediately because "In the day that you eat thereof" can be read as "When you eat thereof".

As such there is no reason to assume the bible is introducing an esoteric definition of death here.

https://answersingenesis.org/death-before-sin/genesis-2-17-you-shall-surely-die/

So, what seems to happen is that Young Earth Creationists use Gen 2:17 as a proof-text that physical death entered as a result of the fall when talking to evolutionists/Old Earth Creationists, and they use Gen 2:17 as a proof-text against death being physical when talking to Annihilationists.

Edited by LuftWaffle

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1 minute ago, LuftWaffle said:

Nothing about "dying you shall die" indicates that this excludes physical death and that it refers to some notion of spiritual death. As I mentioned all Young Earth Creationists (creation.com has loads of articles on this for instance) believe that physical death entered into creation at this point. The text doesn't require that Adam die immediately because "In the day that you eat thereof" can be read as "When you eat thereof".

As such there is no reason to assume the bible is introduction an esoteric definition of death here.

never said physical death didnt.  but as far as it could read when you eat... it could, but it would not be correct.

H3117
יום
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next)

the use of the word in the sense of an age... does not fit in this statement.  If it does not refer to spiritual death the why did Adam hide when God came walking in the cool of the evening as He was accustomed to doing?  He was afraid.  God did not give us a spirit of what???  Fear. 

God breathed in his nostrils and He became a living soul... Jesus breathed on the and said receive ye The Holy Ghost.  Sin kills dude.  When Adam and Eve ate they became disconnected from the fellowship they had with God.... And God called out to him Adam... where are you?  When God asks a question, something is wrong and He wants you to think. 

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2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Actually the opposite is true. John saw a vision of a lake of fire and the interpreting angel interpreted the images as referring to the second death. So you're confusing image with interpretation. You treat the lake of fire as real and the second death as symbolic whereas the bible does the exact opposite.

I've dealt with Rev 20 already. These are visionary images depicting the end of dominions. Just like the Harlot being thrown into the lake of fire is interpreted by the angel to John as the end of Mystery Babilon, and just as death and hades thrown into the lake of fire signifies the end of death, so too it is reasonable that the images of the dragon, the multiheaded beast and the false prophet thrown into the lake of fire and tormented, refers in real life to the end of these dominions. 

The only play the eternal conscious torment camp has is to treat the visionary symbols of Revelation as if they're literal.

I am not denying everlasting punishment. I believe the punishment of the unsaved is permanent death not temporary death, so annihilationists affirm an everlasting punishment. 
It is Universalists who deny everlasting punishment. I am not one of them.

You claimed everybody, those in heaven and those in hell will get eternal bodies. Are you now denying you said that.

Ok, so you've gone from confidently claiming that the bible teaches that all people are immortal, to now, after being unable to find a single verse supporting that, admitting that what you know is what your pastor taught you. This is the problem, I too was convinced that all people lived forever and that death meant separation, because I was also taught those things in Sunday school. It's only when I started looking into it myself that I realised that what I've been taught just isn't there. The reason you're having a hard time finding verses proving your claims is because you've been told what is 'biblical' instead of testing the things you've been taught against scripture, and when you read the bible you're filtering it by the received doctrine you've been taught instead of what he words actually say. This is why you cannot answer why the bible talks about life and death and yet you believe everybody is immortal, because you auto-replace life and death with popular doctrine.

For instance when you read John 3:16 you read it as follows: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish live forever in hell but live forever (in heaven).

 

The Bible says the lake of fire is the second death,  Rev 20: 10--15. And unlike you, I believe the Bible.

I have given you Biblical facts that the believers go to heaven when their bodies die, and unbelievers will be tormented for EVER  and EVER.

Please read Jn 3: 16 again, It says the BELIEVERS shall not perish, It  DOESN'T say the unbelievers shall not perish, DOES IT.

What religion are you, Because your not a Christian.

  • Oy Vey! 1

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8 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

As I mentioned before Matt 25:46 is compatible with annihilation, but not compatible with eternal conscious torment. The reason being that the fate of the unsaved is juxtaposed against eternal life. Eternal Conscious Torment proponents claim that both the saved and the unsaved live forever. So instead of a didactic text supporting eternal conscious torment you have offered one that contradicts it.

You have also offered 'eternal fire' which Jude uses to reference what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, so if Jude doesn't think 'eternal fire' means 'eternal conscious torment' then I'm certainly not obliged to, just because your view requires it.

Moreover Jeremiah described Gehenna as a valley of slaughter. He could have described it as a valley where people live forever in torment if that were true, but he didn't.

Then you've tried to use the Imago Dei (Image of God) in an attempt to argue that mankind is immortal, whereby you directly contradicted scripture and made a logical fallacy (Gen 9:6)

So when you say that I rejected what you offered 'outside of hermeneutic process' you're simply being dishonest. You have offered nothing coming close to a didactic teaching that the fate of the unsaved is eternal conscious torment.

Here we get to the core of problem with Eternal Conscious Torment. The Hellenic baggage that has crept into the church mainly through Augustine who was an admirer of Plato.

History Warning!
The Ancient Greeks believed that human souls were inherently immortal. This was the mainstream view in ancient Greece, I believe Epicurious was one of the few Greek scholars who didn't hold that view. So, since the Greeks believed all souls were immortal they needed a definition of death consistent with souls being immortal, as such Plato stated that death is a separation of body and soul.
So when Christians state that death is a separation they're not quoting the bible, they're quoting Plato. This is why you will not find death defined anywhere in scripture as "separation". Instead death is used in conjunction with perishing, decay, returning to dust, worms eating corpses and so on.

"And they are right, Simmias, in saying this, with the exception of the words “They have found them out”; for they have not found out what is the nature of this death which the true philosopher desires, or how he deserves or desires death. But let us leave them and have a word with ourselves: Do we believe that there is such a thing as death?
To be sure, replied Simmias.
And is this anything but the separation of soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation when the soul exists in herself, and is parted from the body and the body is parted from the soul—that is death?" - Plato's Phaeo 61-64 

So it's not so much that I misunderstand death, I simply do not see any need to incorporate pagan notions into my interpretive framework of scripture. 

Plus this admission on your part that 'death' must be *understood* as 'separation' just demonstrates that Matt 25:46 is only a proof-text for eternal conscious torment, if words like life, death, destruction and perishing are harmonised with eternal conscious torment. 
So eternal conscious torment is read into Matt 25:46 and then Matt 25:46 is used as a prooftext for it.

Young Earth Creationists believe that physical death entered into creation as a result of the fall. They cite the very verse you're referencing as proof of this. As a YEC yourself, are you now disagreeing with them? Are you saying that the fall had nothing to do with physical death, because you now need to find a way to shoehorn Plato's definition of death into scripture somewhere?

Wow, this is demonstrably false. The surrounding verses provide clarity:

Rev 22:10  And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near
Rev 22:11  Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy." 
Rev 22:12  "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

So this isn't a statement that the evil doer will to evil forever, or an 'eternal state', 'after judgement' as you claim, because the part you're quoting is joined to "for the time is near", "I am coming soon" and "repay each one for what he has done".  Clearly before judgement then and not after judgement as you say.
So you're blatantly contradicting the text here.

Now, doesn't it strike you as significant the lengths that you must go to find just one didactic verse that teaches eternal conscious torment, or just one verse that teaches that all people (including the unsaved) are inherently immortal? Apart from two visionary images in Revelation, which must be read as if they're not symbolic, you have nothing. So for all the overconfident, self-righteous claims that the bible 'clearly' teaches eternal torment and those who disagree are just "humanists, theological liberals or John Lennon", it seems when we actually get down to what the Bible says, the only conscious tormenting happening here is the ECT camp torturing the text.

No I am not the one with the problem of an eternal conscious torment … Scripture clearly teaches it and it is in the plain sense of Scripture.  

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      So, how did God give Him?.......God gave Jesus THE Christ, to the WORLD,  as a virgin born male, who is the "2nd Adam" who does not literally have an earthly father, which means Jesus is not born with a fallen Adamic (sin nature). Jesus's spiritual nature, is God, because Jesus is God.
      So then..
      He lives a sinless life, and goes to the Cross and dies there..... bearing our Sin. (God so Love the world) the verse says and this is why and to whom Jesus was sacrified ...... And once this is accomplished...(Cross = Salvation), then Jesus says from the Cross...>"it is finished". And that is correct. Salvation, The Blood Atonement is now a completed OFFERING, to the WORLD, to all who would come.... Its a finished Salvation that is waiting to be given for free, ALL THE TIME, EVERYDAY, to anyone who will by FAITH "believe on the name of Jesus, and you shall be SAVED".

      Then.....and here comes OSAS.. you read in the verse that the born again who have obeyed this verse, (BELIEVED) will never "PERISH".....so, that is explained in John 10:28 were Jesus says you will never "perish", (can't go to hell, can't be damned)(eternal security)... and the born again are also GIVEN .. (you dont earn it) "Eternal Life". 
      Listen Saint...
      Eternal life IS not a time frame.. ok? This phrase does not mean..."infinity and forever"..but rather, this is the POWER OF JESUS created concept that refers to living with Him and God, in the family of God, as the Body Of Christ, in ETERNITY.
      "Eternal life", is Jesus Himself, who IS the "resurrection and the LIFE".....
      See that "life"...... THAT is eternal Life.......and here it is again...... John 14:6... Jesus saying....."i am The Way, The Truth, and THE LIFE"......and there it is again.
      Jesus is talking not about a time frame, but He is talking about HIMSELF< who IS Eternal Life... John 11:25 .. So,= this is OSAS......the fact that if you have Jesus..."Christ in you", and you are "in Christ", then because JESUS IS ETERNAL LIFE< then you have it right now, because you have HIM right now, and He has YOU right now
      = OSAS.
      Your Eternal Life, does not start after you are DEAD...... You have it NOW.
      You, the born again, are translated from darkness to Light.....right now.
      Jesus is the Light of the World and you are Children of the Light.....right NOW.
      Or as John says in  1 John 5:13 "i write these words so that you will KNOW".
      Know what?
      What does John want you to KNOW? ? ?
      That if you have BELIEVED on CHRIST, then you have ETERNAL LIFE.
      HAVE IT.........not waiting for it....but HAVE IT, = right now.
      So, see how ALL that fits like a glove with John 3:16 ?

      This is the interesting thing about OSAS.....This understanding, is all over the NT.
      The NT is filled with verses that speak about how Jesus saves you and keeps you saved.
      Paul will tell you. John just told you, and in fact the entire NT is the Blood of Jesus being written to you as a revelation of God, and how He saved you using a Cross and KEEPS YOU Saved with the Blood of Christ that was shed for you.
      = OSAS.

      blessings,

      <dw><
    • By Ryan2203
      Is watching certain movies with swear words and saying swear words a serious sin? Will I go to hell for it?
    • By Haррy Felix
      Every now and then I can use a bit of confirmation that I'm doing the right things that Jesus ordered, as you may have noticed. That the signs point in the right direction, with an eye on the afterlife i.e. the Real Life. In my working life I developed a lot of 'scorecards' and now I found an interesting one that estimates or simulates no less than the future of my soul: Heaven or hell?
      All a bit presumptuous maybe, and I therefore really hope that this Achille Christian guy has thought very very well about the 40 questions an angel asks me in this 'game'. With God's Mercy set to 50% I'm going to Heaven all right. I'll have to try with 100% and 0%. For Roman Catholics, purgatory was optionally included.
      Maybe somebody on this forum is willing to make the effort of checking if the questions make good sense (I think reproducing the list here is not allowed). We still won't see the actual weighting, though. I saw a free version with 15 questions. 
       
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