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Blood Bought 1953

Musings about Hell pt2

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Hidden In Him said:

Wow. Exactly. I think we sometimes forget it is ultimately about setting up a kingdom that will last forever, and those who refuse to bow the knee but rebel against His rule, despite being eternal, He would have little choice but to sentence to being "cast out of the kingdom."

I was thinking the same thing after I posted it. "Choose you this day whom you will serve..."

ABSOLUTELY. In my opinion, any doctrine of salvation that does not strongly involve obedience in some form or fashion is a falsehood. Certainly we are saved by grace and that must never be forgotten. But the question becomes how did we respond to that grace? It is to open the door for the Spirit to come upon us that we might please Him, and through obedience.

Hadn't even read this line yet, and you were using the same wording as I am, Lol. 

So do you, brother. Sounds like we are in strong agreement on some of the most important issues of all. :thumbsup: 

God bless, and thanks for the post.

Looking forward to discussing things more with you in the future!

I am an LSU grad. Tell me that you are an LSU fan and not USL or our potential friendship is doooooomed. :)

Edited by Gideon

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1 hour ago, Gideon said:

I am an LSU grad. Tell me that you are an LSU fan and not USL or our potential friendship is doooooomed. :)

:) I'm a Tiger fan all the way.

But I'm an even bigger Saints fan, so don't cross me there, LoL.

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8 hours ago, Gideon said:

If we are given eternal life at the judgment, that means we were not eternal until then. Correct? 

But we were given eternal life before the Judgment.

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
(1Jn 5:11-13)

I can't for the life of me (no pun intended) understand why you keep saying we receive eternal life at the Judgment. We have already passed through Judgment...

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(Joh 5:24)
 

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8 hours ago, Yowm said:

But we were given eternal life before the Judgment.

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
(1Jn 5:11-13)

I can't for the life of me (no pun intended) understand why you keep saying we receive eternal life at the Judgment. We have already passed through Judgment...

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(Joh 5:24)
 

Simple. He that endures to the end will be saved. Right now we prove we are born again by continuing to remain in Him, fleeing all sin, possessing our vessels in sanctification and honor, running our race as if there is only one prize, amen? 

Blessings, dear friend

Gids

 

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2 hours ago, Gideon said:

Simple. He that endures to the end will be saved. Right now we prove we are born again by continuing to remain in Him, fleeing all sin, possessing our vessels in sanctification and honor, running our race as if there is only one prize, amen? 

Blessings, dear friend

Gids

 

Perhaps they endured to the end because they held on to the promises we have now, like...

1 John 5:9-13 NKJV
[9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. [10] He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. [11] And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. [12] He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. [13] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

.John 5:24 NKJV
[24] "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Romans 5:10-11 NKJV
[10] For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. [11] And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

If you are going to stand on promises, I would stand on those. The passage you quoted, it's context is the great tribulation and it is being saved through that period.

In any case I have shown you clear passages stating that we already have eternal life. You're not going to squeeze out some  passages out of context to prove Scripture contradicts Scripture are you and put the future of salvation out of the hands of Christ into ours? That is simply a walk of works giving no assurance of salvation.

Going back to the question, 'Do we receive eternal life at the Judgment or now?' I would contend 'now' on the basis that we now have Jesus within us, the One who promises to never leave or forsake us.

 Again...1 John 5:12 NKJV
[12] He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Yowm said:

Perhaps they endured to the end because they held on to the promises we have now, like...

1 John 5:9-13 NKJV
[9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. [10] He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. [11] And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. [12] He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. [13] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

.John 5:24 NKJV
[24] "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Romans 5:10-11 NKJV
[10] For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. [11] And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

If you are going to stand on promises, I would stand on those. The passage you quoted, it's context is the great tribulation and it is being saved through that period.

In any case I have shown you clear passages stating that we already have eternal life. You're not going to squeeze out some  passages out of context to prove Scripture contradicts Scripture are you and put the future of salvation out of the hands of Christ into ours? That is simply a walk of works giving no assurance of salvation.

Going back to the question, 'Do we receive eternal life at the Judgment or now?' I would contend 'now' on the basis that we now have Jesus within us, the One who promises to never leave or forsake us.

 Again...1 John 5:12 NKJV
[12] He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

 

 

Brother, I understand what you are saying. But here is what Paul said to the Romans.

”And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.”

             Romans 2:3-7 

Yes, holding onto the promise of eternal life certainly can  strengthen us, but the actual possession of it is, as I stated previously, comes at the day of judgment, as we can see from what Paul states here.

Blessings brother.

Gideon

Edited by Gideon

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11 minutes ago, Gideon said:

Brother, I understand what you are saying. But here is what Paul said to the Romans.

”And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.”

             Romans 2:3-7 

Yes, holding onto the promise of eternal life certainly can  strengthen us, but the actual possession of it is, as I stated previously, comes at the day of judgment, as we can see from what Paul states here.

Blessings brother.

Gideon

Did you read on in the same book, in the same context as Paul is laying out his case for mankind's need for the Gospel? That is what Paul is doing in the passage you quoted and so it turns out that if God is to render everyman according to his deeds then they are all doomed, for all have sinned and fallen short of God's righteousness. Read...

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through thelaw comes knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:9-20)

Paul then presents the Gospel, which is the Good News of the free grace of God bringing the free gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
(Rom 3:21-24)

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
(Rom 5:15-17)

again...

Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
(1Jn 5:12-13)
 

 

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      Isaiah 14:9 “hell from beneath”, Ephesians 4:9 “descended into lower parts of earth”, Numbers 16:33 “they went down alive into the pit”,
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      Question 2:  How can a loving God send people to hell?
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      III. JESUS' STORY OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS in Luke 16:19-31.
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      The rich man, who refused to show mercy to Lazarus in need, now begged that Lazarus might show mercy to him in his need (v.24). The rich man declares the greatness of his torment saying: “I am in torment (agony) in this fire (or flame).” v.24.
      Lesson:    Material things have only temporary, not eternal value. Luke 16:25.
      Abraham responded by calling him “son”. This means that he was a son of Abraham by flesh, not by faith. The rich man trusted his wealth and his physical descent from Abraham for his salvation. Christ showed that neither reason was sufficient for salvation. At death, one's eternal destiny is settled. "Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed" (v.26). The rich man could remember his false confidence in wealth, and his wrong devotion to it. This story refutes "soul-sleep", because the rich man and Lazarus were conscious, one enjoying comfort, and the other suffering torment.
      Note: Hades had two sections: paradise and hell punishment. Jesus emptied the paradise section when He rose from the dead and took the Old Testament believers’ souls to heaven. Eph. 4:8-10; John 20:17.
      “Torment” is used four times and means sorrow and grief.
      Abraham gave two reasons why Lazarus could not comfort the rich man:
      a)    The rich man had received his reward (Matthew 6:2,5,16), and he had left God out of his life.
      b)The great gulf separated them.
      ii) To send Lazarus back to warn his five brothers. Luke 16:27-31.
      The rich man did not say: “I'm glad my brothers will come here, we'll have a wonderful time together.”
      People sometimes say: "I want to go to hell. All my friends will be there." Answer: There is no friendship in hell. Hell is a place of torment and loneliness.
      Lesson: People in hell have a concern for the lost, but they cannot do anything about it, BUT WE CAN! What are you doing?
      v.29-31: Abraham said that the only thing that could prevent his five brothers from coming to hell was:
      Hearing the Word of God, and responding to it by faith in Christ as Saviour.
      A man named Lazarus did come back from the dead, and some of the Pharisees wanted to kill him (John 11:43-57; 12:10).
      God had spoken many times to the rich man while on earth:
      1.     God permitted him to have riches, but not attributing his riches to God’s goodness, he did not repent. 
          “The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.” Romans 2:4-5. 
      2.     Lazarus would have witnessed to him, but his pride rejected Lazarus’ message. 
      3.     Old Testament scriptures spoke to him. 
      4.     Lazarus dying first, should have reminded him how he would also die. In hell he was still self-centred, praying for his comfort and for the safety of his family. He was not concerned about other lost sinners. C.S. Lewis says: “The safest road to hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts.” 
      Lessons from the rich man and Lazarus:
      1.     The souls of men do not die with their bodies. 
      2.     The souls of men are conscious after death, not asleep until resurrected. 
      3.     The righteous at death are taken immediately to a place of happiness and the wicked are sent to a place of misery and torment. 
      4.     Wealth does not protect us from death. 
      5.     We should not envy the rich, as riches can blind us to the reality of eternity. 
      6.     We should seek a better inheritance than this life can give. 
      7.     The sufferings of the wicked in hell will be indescribably great of torment, burning flame, and insatiable thirst, forever. 
      8.     Hell is a place of suffering beyond the grave. If not, this story has no meaning. 
      9.     There will never be any escape from hell. The gulf is fixed. 
      10.     God warns us to prepare for death through: 
      His Word.
      His Holy Spirit pleading with sinners. His servants.
      His goodness leading us to repentance. Pleadings of friends.
      Heaven.
      If all that would not move sinners, then what would? He threatens hell.
      11.     God will give us nothing more to warn us. No dead man will return to tell us what he has seen. If he did, no one would believe him. If you will not hear Christ or the Bible, there is nothing you will hear. You will never be persuaded, and you will never escape the place of torment. 
      12.     We see the amazing folly of those wanting to go to hell. They have been deceived. 
      IV. THE IMPLICATIONS OF HELL FOR US TODAY
      1.     Soul winning is important. When people get angry at a preacher preaching on soul winning, they are doing the devil's work. 
      2.     We need to become fishers of men. Matthew 4:19. 
      3.     If we are busy pulling souls out of the fire, we will not waste our time fighting other Christians. We will seek to maintain unity in our church. 
      4.     We see our Church as of great importance in rescuing people from hell. Rescuing people from hell is a major purpose of churches. 
      5.     Hell focuses our attention on eternity, taking our attention off petty present things like latest worldly fashions which pale into insignificance in the light of lost people going to an eternal hell. 
      6.     Hell makes us train workers to be soul winners. 
      7.     It gives us a love for people to win to Christ and to train in the Bible. 
      8.     It makes us use our time wisely so that all we do helps in some way to rescue people from hell. 
      9.     Hell makes us mission minded so that we try to win lost people to Christ overseas. For example, Roman Catholics in Africa grew from 52 million in 1980 to 92 million in 1993. 
      10.     Hell and eternal judgment is the sixth principle of the Doctrine of Christ, so it must be emphasised in our doctrinal teaching. “the foundation of ……eternal judgment.” Hebrews 6:1,2. 
      11.     Hell will give us a better testimony as Christians. If we sin, people will go to hell. 
      12.     Hell will stop us backsliding because we will realise that our job is important to accomplish in rescuing people from hell. “For what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and lose his own soul?” Mark 8:36. What is your answer to this question? 
      Conclusion
       
      Are you really saved?
      Have you received Jesus Christ as your Saviour, trusting Him alone to save you, not your religion or your good works?
      If you are saved, then what are you doing to tell people how Jesus Christ can save them from hell?
    • By starsong4
      If someone doesn't know about Christ, and has never heard of Christ, then where do they go when they die? I can provide an example if requested.
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