Jump to content
IGNORED

The chronological order of end time events


Quasar93

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  84
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  3,986
  • Content Per Day:  1.13
  • Reputation:   2,517
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  07/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

12 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

you have it right that the great tribulation is the wrath of Satan upon the elect (church) and Israel. It is also true that the Beast will continue after he is revealed for 42 months. However, according to Jesus, the great tribulation is cut short. It will not last 3.5 years.

I can agree with this but I think some things need clarification.

  • The little horn wages war against the saints for 42 months (3.5 years) and that duration is not cut short.
  • The great tribulation takes place at the beginning of those 42 months and ends with the 6th seal.  The intensity of the persecution effort is what's cut short, not the duration.
  • The sixth seal diminishes the little horn's ability to prosecute his war, it doesn't end it.  This is due in part to the plagues of the 7th seal that he and his followers have to deal with.  At the 6th seal, great tribulation becomes tribulation for the duration of the 42 months.
12 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Both the great tribulation and the wrath of God, in the beginning of the day of the Lord, take up the second half of the week, one after the other.

I agree that the great tribulation and the plagues occur in the 42 months before the Lord's return.  Those 42 months are described in Daniel 12 as "a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time."  It will affect everyone on the earth albeit in different ways.  Some will be persecuted for their faith and the rest will be judged for their idolatry, depending on how they respond to the image.

As I see it, the great tribulation begins the 42 months and lasts for 110 days.  Then the 6th seal is opened bringing the great tribulation to an end.  The war against the saints continues for the remaining 1150 days but with a lesser intensity.  The plagues of the 7th seal are also occurring during those 1150 days for the purpose of restoring the holy place (calling God's people out of Babylon).

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  7
  • Topic Count:  156
  • Topics Per Day:  0.06
  • Content Count:  651
  • Content Per Day:  0.24
  • Reputation:   236
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  12/06/2016
  • Status:  Offline

11 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, I have no doubt that you can find all kinds of teachers, so called theologians, and/or pastors who will tell you what you want to hear. Paul told us this would be the case.

2Ti 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Heaping up false teachers doesn't make what your parroting true.

The historical record from Justin Martyr to Charles Spurgeon is the expectation of seeing the Antichrist and suffering great tribulation at his hand. This prosperity gospel escapism that has become entrenched in evangelical churches over the last 100 years will serve to help facilitate the apostasy that Jesus spoke of as happening before His coming. When many "professing Christians" experience persecution and the lying wonders of the false prophet they will be offended and fall away.

What will you do when you see the Beast and are asked to take the mark or starve or be beheaded? It is absolutely certain that the last generation of the church will experience the most severe persecution.

I was a pre-trib teacher for thirty years and considered myself an expert. I was practically a disciple of Thomas Ice and the Pre-trib Research Center. Then the Lord had mercy on me and showed me that I was reading a flawed eschatological system into the text. Over a period of time, the Lord, with the text of the Holy Scriptures, demolished all the erroneous supports that I had for the pre-trib rapture. I know how hard it was for me to realize I was wrong, so, I'm not expecting any quick movement by any one away from a pre-trib position to the Biblical model that has come to be called pre-wrath.

Notwithstanding, if you are in the last generation of the church, you will see the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem and the revelation of the Beast, you will experience the wrath of Satan cast to the earth through the Beast and false prophet, and if you survive to the coming of Christ you will not die physically but be changed and raptured. When it happens know that you were told. It is all in the Holy Scriptures.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Hallelujah

End of the Age Chart 2018.jpg

End of the Age Chart PDF.pdf

 

You're wasting your time calling Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, who teach the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, documented in this thread as well as in the "Biblical Teaching of the Pre-trib Rapture of the Church," in the Prophecy forum, all liars.  Explain to me, how the Church gets into heaven for the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus in Rev.19:7-8. then come with Jesus when He returns to the earth in His second coming, in verse 14.

FYI, my Bible studies began in August of 1937, and a concentrated study of prophecy/eschatology research and study alone, over the past 36 years.  In addition to that, I am a qualified teacher of the Bible.  And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology?

 

Quasar93

Edited by Quasar93
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  74
  • Topics Per Day:  0.03
  • Content Count:  1,238
  • Content Per Day:  0.55
  • Reputation:   669
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/26/2018
  • Status:  Offline

On 4/16/2018 at 7:44 AM, Quasar93 said:

Hi Quasar 93...... I have read the thread, and I do have a few comments

You said:.....The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. 

Comment: I have found nowhere in Scripture where the church is ever referred to as "he". Also note...."the ONE who now holds it back"....is singular.

"one" and "he"....refer to the same person.....

You said....."The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2,"

Comment: "symbolically illustrated"..... this is speculation on your part. It's also circular reasoning to validate your pre-tribulation view. The apostle Paul also was called into heaven. 

In Rev 5 :11, John says that ...."I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels....beasts...elders"......but no mention of "church"......This is before any of the seals were opened on the scroll.

Not until Rev 7:9 does he see the church. "after this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."....This is after the 6th seal.

So why was there no mention from John in Rev 5:11 about the church? Were they hiding? Were they there, but invisible?

You said:..."[The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation]

Comment:.....the way you have this all lumped together, I'm assuming you mean it to be all the same. That the Day of the Lord, 70th week and 7 yr trib are all the same event. Is this correct?

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  7
  • Topic Count:  156
  • Topics Per Day:  0.06
  • Content Count:  651
  • Content Per Day:  0.24
  • Reputation:   236
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  12/06/2016
  • Status:  Offline

9 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Quasar 93...... I have read the thread, and I do have a few comments

You said:.....The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. 

Comment: I have found nowhere in Scripture where the church is ever referred to as "he". Also note...."the ONE who now holds it back"....is singular.

"one" and "he"....refer to the same person.....

You said....."The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2,"

Comment: "symbolically illustrated"..... this is speculation on your part. It's also circular reasoning to validate your pre-tribulation view. The apostle Paul also was called into heaven. 

In Rev 5 :11, John says that ...."I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels....beasts...elders"......but no mention of "church"......This is before any of the seals were opened on the scroll.

Not until Rev 7:9 does he see the church. "after this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."....This is after the 6th seal.

So why was there no mention from John in Rev 5:11 about the church? Were they hiding? Were they there, but invisible?

You said:..."[The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation]

Comment:.....the way you have this all lumped together, I'm assuming you mean it to be all the same. That the Day of the Lord, 70th week and 7 yr trib are all the same event. Is this correct?

 

 

 

 

 

 

The he who restrains lawlessness, until he is taken out of the way, in 2 Thess.2:7, is the agent for the Holy Spirit, here on earth.  He is the one body of Christ, His Church.  In complete harmony with the DEPARTURE of the Church, in verse 3.

The 70th week of Daniel 9:27/the seven year tribulation/the Day of the Lord are one and the same period of time, that you abrasively call, "all humped together."  I seriously douby there is anyone else here who has any problem unferstanding that.

I'm still waiting tor you to tell me where you obtained your qualifications to teach the Bible! 

 

 

Quasar93 
 

Edited by Quasar93
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  5
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  401
  • Content Per Day:  0.18
  • Reputation:   226
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  02/19/2018
  • Status:  Offline

On 4/20/2018 at 11:03 AM, Quasar93 said:

 

You're wasting your time calling Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, who teach the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, documented in this thread as well as in the "Biblical Teaching of the Pre-trib Rapture of the Church," in the Prophecy forum, all liars.  Explain to me, how the Church gets into heaven for the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus in Rev.19:7-8. then come with Jesus when He returns to the earth in His second coming, in verse 14.

FYI, my Bible studies began in August of 1937, and a concentrated study of prophecy/eschatology research and study alone, over the past 36 years.  In addition to that, I am a qualified teacher of the Bible.  And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology?

 

Quasar93

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, from what you have said it appears that you are in your late 80s or 90s. It is a shame that in all those years you haven't recognized some very simple and easily understood eschatological truths that are given to us in the Holy Scriptures.

Like you, and most other pre-tribers, I recognize that we (the church) are told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath (1Thes 5:9). I believe that we, like the faithful church in Philadelphia, will be kept from the hour of temptation that shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth (Rev 3:10). We will be removed from the earth (raptured) prior to this hour of temptation. I believe, like you, that this hour of temptation is the period of God's wrath poured out at the beginning of the day of the Lord. These truths, we could say, are self evident or easy to grasp. We both have these truths in common.

However, the question remains: "When does God's wrath begin to be poured out upon the earth dwellers?" If we find conclusive statements in the Word of God concerning the timing of the beginning of God's wrath being poured out we can therefore know that we will be raptured prior to that point.

It just so happens that this period, that contains the pouring out of God's wrath, is the most spoken of event in all of the Holy Scriptures. It is called the day of the LORD. If I understand you correctly, you recognize that it is the wrath of God in the day of the Lord that the church is "kept from". So, the question further defined is: "When does the day of the Lord begin?"

There are a hand full of explicit statements concerning conditions that must be so or events that must take place before the day of the Lord can begin. Lets look at some of them.

1) Elijah must come first

Mal 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Elijah will come and turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers. He will come and fulfill his ministry before the day of the Lord begins.

2) There must be a great cosmic sign

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Many of the eschatological day of the Lord passages mention this cosmic sign involving the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars.

3) Paul gives two conditions: an apostasia (a notable departure from the faith) and the man of sin (Beast) revealed in the temple

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The day of Christ (or the day of the Lord as many manuscripts have it) will not come until the conditions are met that Paul identifies.

Since you see apostasia in an unorthodox way and Elijah's coming might not be easy to identify from this side of the world, lets focus on an event that will be unmistakable and evident to everyone. This event will allow us to identify the beginning of the day of the Lord in relation to other eschatological happenings.

The cosmic sign

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

First it is certain that Joel's cosmic sign must precede the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. The word "before" in this context means "prior to". We know this because Peter quotes this verse in Acts 2:20 and Luke under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit recorded it with a Greek word that only means "prior to", as apposed to the Hebrew that Joel used that could mean "in the face of". Since this cosmic sign must come before the day of the Lord are there any other mentions of the sign in relation to the events of the seventieth week? Absolutely.

The most obvious is what John sees when the sixth seal is opened.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

What John sees corresponds closely to Isaiah's prophecy concerning the reaction of the wicked on the day of the LORD when God's wrath is impending. Notice the great earthquake.

Isa 2:19  And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

This that John sees is the response of the earth dwellers to the impending wrath of God which is to begin the very same day. I say "the very same day" because both Jesus and Paul make it clear that the day of Christ's coming and our gathering unto Him will initiate His wrath in the day of the Lord.

The very same day

Notice that Jesus says that when God's wrath was poured out in the days of Noah and Lot, that they were taken to safety, before wrath fell upon the wicked, and that it fell upon them the very same day. He then says that it will happen the same way in the day of His revelation, which is at His coming.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Notice that Paul identifies that the church will be free from trouble, or to say it another way, have rest from being persecuted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed. It is at Christ's revelation that the church's persecutors will face tribulation in the form of God's vengeance.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Both Jesus and Paul teach that our rescue (rapture) will take place upon the very day that God's wrath falls upon the wicked.

If the wrath of God is preceded by the sun, moon, and stars going dark, and if our rescue (that is, those of us who are alive and remain or survive) happens the same day God's wrath falls upon the wicked, then we can understand that God's wrath doesn't fall until after the cosmic sign seen at the opening of the sixth seal. In fact with further study we will see that the first stroke of God's eschatological wrath is the first trumpet judgement in Rev 8.

No wrath of God upon the wicked at the fifth seal

Notice that there has been no vengeance yet at the opening of the 5th seal. The martyred saints are crying out that their blood be avenged upon the earth dwellers. They are told that vengeance would not come for a little season until others are martyred also.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So, there is no wrath of God yet at the opening of the fifth seal.

The first mention of God's wrath in the Revelation is at the opening of the sixth seal where it is portended

Notice also that this is the first use of the word wrath in relation to God's indignation in the book of Revelation. All twelve uses of God's wrath in the book come after the sixth seal is opened.

These cosmic events portend Christ's coming and the wrath that will follow.

Notice what Luke records of Christ's words at the Olivet Discourse.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Jesus says there is 1) the cosmic sign, 2) followed by His coming in a cloud and 3) the redemption of the believer.

Mathew records records Christ's words with additional information.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus here says after 1) great tribulation is cut short (Vs 22) 2) the cosmic sign will appear, 3) then all the world shall see Him coming in the clouds, and 4) He will send His angels to gather His elect to Him.

Are these cosmic signs all the same event?

We have seen some of the places where a cosmic sign is spoken of. The question is whether or not they all refer to the same event. Since there is no statement in any of the passages that "this is that which Joel spoke of," we must reason from the evidence to determine if these all speak of the same event. Lets examine the evidence.

1) Rev 6:12-17

We have already seen from Rev 6:9-11 that God's wrath will not be poured out until a little season after the opening of the fifth seal. We have also seen that at the opening of the sixth seal is the first use of (God's) wrath in the Book. It is also observable that the language used for the cosmic sign is very close between Joel 2:31 and Rev 6:12. Even though "the day of the Lord" is not mentioned by name in Rev 6:12-17 many prophetic aspects of it are present: a great earthquake, the hiding and fear of the wicked, cosmic signs, and the impending wrath of God. It can also be understood that this event portends Christ and involves Christ's coming.

The evidence is extremely strong in favor Rev 6:12-13 being Joel's cosmic sign which must come before the day of the Lord.

2) Luke 21:25-28 and Matt 24:29-31

Since these are both parallel accounts of Christ's words in the Olivet discourse we shall treat them as a comprehensive statement. In the Olivet discourse Jesus is answering four of His disciples questions: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matt 24:3) They wanted to know what events would signal that Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence) is at hand (near).

In the answer to their questions Jesus speaks of the condition of the world at the end of the age, leading up to His second coming. He describes a period of trouble involving deception, conquest, war, famine, pestilences, and earthquakes. This period He calls the beginning of sorrows. Note, that nothing about the beginning of sorrows is said to be unprecedented.

After this He identifies a time of severe persecution for Christ's name sake and an associated great deception. He says it will involve many being offended and betraying one another. This will be a great falling away from the Faith. He goes on to further describe this period of severe persecution of the elect and Israel as unprecedented great tribulation. He also ties the beginning of great tribulation to the defiling of the temple (abomination of desolation) spoken of by Daniel. Daniel records that it takes place in the middle of the seventieth week. Jesus says that the persecution will be so severe that it must be Divinely cut short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth. He goes on to warn of great signs and wonders done by the false Christ and false prophet, saying that the deceptive quality of them is so great that if it were possible they would deceive even the very elect. From there He cautions that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, so, do not believe all the various false reports that will be given.

He says that His revelation, at His parousia, will follow the cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark, which will signal that the great tribulation is over. The world at that point will immediately become fearful, however the persecuted saints which have survived, at that time will look up and lift up their heads, for their redemption draweth nigh. Jesus says that He will appear in the clouds of heaven with His holy angels. When all the unbelieving world sees Him in His glory, He says they will mourn. He says that He will then send His angels to gather His elect to Him in the clouds.

Now having seen much of Christ's answer, what is the evidence that the cosmic sign He speaks of is that of Joel 2:31 and that which John sees at the opening of the sixth seal.

The cosmic sign of Matt 24:29 and Luke 21:25-26 happens before the revelation of Christ with all His holy angels. This is consistent with Paul's description that the at the revelation of Christ the church will find rest from persecution and God's wrath will be poured out.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

There is no mention of God's wrath in the Olivet Discourse until it is inferred in the example of the flood which takes place after the elect are gathered to Christ.

In the chronology given by Christ the cosmic sign of Matt 24:29, Mark 13:24-25, and Luke 21:25 is the first and only cosmic sign mentioned.

There is strong evidence that the cosmic sign of which Jesus speaks is that prophesied by Joel.

The implications are that the wrath of God in the day of the Lord begins after the great tribulation, the cosmic sign, Christ's revelation in glory in the clouds with the holy angels, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture of the elect (church), the church being escorted to the Father's house to stand before the throne, and the sealing of the 144,000. Then after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven at the blowing of the first trumpet God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earthdwellers.

Hallelujah

 

 

Edited by Steve Conley
Accidentally posted, not finnished
  • Loved it! 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  10
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,957
  • Content Per Day:  0.57
  • Reputation:   295
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

Matthew 24 is the Lord's discourse with regard to Israel

Those who do not see this tend to incorporate the Gentiles in the details

There is no Gentile effect in Matthew 24 at all

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  74
  • Topics Per Day:  0.03
  • Content Count:  1,238
  • Content Per Day:  0.55
  • Reputation:   669
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/26/2018
  • Status:  Offline

21 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Matthew 24 is the Lord's discourse with regard to Israel

Those who do not see this tend to incorporate the Gentiles in the details

There is no Gentile effect in Matthew 24 at all

 

So......ONLY Israel?

Nation against nation....kingdom against kingdom..... famines, pestilences, earthquakes in DIVERS places.....be hated by all nations for HIS NAMES SAKE (they don't even believe in Him)....false Christs, false prophets, great signs and wonders.....

REALLY????????????....only Israel?...................C'mon!

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  5
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  401
  • Content Per Day:  0.18
  • Reputation:   226
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  02/19/2018
  • Status:  Offline

25 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Matthew 24 is the Lord's discourse with regard to Israel

Those who do not see this tend to incorporate the Gentiles in the details

There is no Gentile effect in Matthew 24 at all

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Daniel 11:36, you can say that till the cows come home, but it doesn't make it so. You have been deceived into dismissing many of Christ's most pertinent warnings to us and are actively involved in the deception of others. I'm here to expose the lies that you promote. I once believed and taught as you do, until God had mercy upon me and showed me the eisegesis that I was, as you are, involved in.

The shame you will bear for your lack of faithfulness in diligent study when you stand before Christ can be remedied now with repentance and the undoing the harm you have caused to others through this prosperity gospel like escapism that you preach.

If you live long enough you will see the fruit of your pernicious activity when you see the horror upon the faces of those you have deceived when they experience the wrath of the Satan through the Beast and False Prophet that most certainly will come upon the last generation of the church.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  12
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  4,039
  • Content Per Day:  1.41
  • Reputation:   546
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/01/2016
  • Status:  Offline

On 4/19/2018 at 11:03 PM, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, I have no doubt that you can find all kinds of teachers, so called theologians, and/or pastors who will tell you what you want to hear. Paul told us this would be the case.

2Ti 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Heaping up false teachers doesn't make what your parroting true.

The historical record from Justin Martyr to Charles Spurgeon is the expectation of seeing the Antichrist and suffering great tribulation at his hand. This prosperity gospel escapism that has become entrenched in evangelical churches over the last 100 years will serve to help facilitate the apostasy that Jesus spoke of as happening before His coming. When many "professing Christians" experience persecution and the lying wonders of the false prophet they will be offended and fall away.

What will you do when you see the Beast and are asked to take the mark or starve or be beheaded? It is absolutely certain that the last generation of the church will experience the most severe persecution.

I was a pre-trib teacher for thirty years and considered myself an expert. I was practically a disciple of Thomas Ice and the Pre-trib Research Center. Then the Lord had mercy on me and showed me that I was reading a flawed eschatological system into the text. Over a period of time, the Lord, with the text of the Holy Scriptures, demolished all the erroneous supports that I had for the pre-trib rapture. I know how hard it was for me to realize I was wrong, so, I'm not expecting any quick movement by any one away from a pre-trib position to the Biblical model that has come to be called pre-wrath.

Notwithstanding, if you are in the last generation of the church, you will see the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem and the revelation of the Beast, you will experience the wrath of Satan cast to the earth through the Beast and false prophet, and if you survive to the coming of Christ you will not die physically but be changed and raptured. When it happens know that you were told. It is all in the Holy Scriptures.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Hallelujah

End of the Age Chart 2018.jpg

End of the Age Chart PDF.pdf

The beginning of sorrows on Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the last 7 years. Matthew 24:1-6 is from Jesus time to 70 AD. Matthew 24:7-14 is the 2000 year church age which BIRTHS Jacobs Troubles thus the Birth Pangs reference. 

Your chart also has the first 3 seals as being a part of the 3 1/2 years of peace, so they don't fit. The First Seal RELEASES the Anti-Christ to go forth CONQUERING and to CONQUER. Also, what are you implying with the subtract 30-75 days? 

The Day of the Lord starts with the FIRST SEAL as a matter of fact all of the Judgments come forth from the FIRST SEAL, because the Trumpets are the 7TH SEAL, and the Vials or 3rd Woe comes from the 7th Trumpet so they also come forth from the SEVENTH SEAL. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  7
  • Topic Count:  156
  • Topics Per Day:  0.06
  • Content Count:  651
  • Content Per Day:  0.24
  • Reputation:   236
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  12/06/2016
  • Status:  Offline

2 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, from what you have said it appears that you are in your late 80s or 90s. It is a shame that in all those years you haven't recognized some very simple and easily understood eschatological truths that are given to us in the Holy Scriptures.

Like you, and most other pre-tribers, I recognize that we (the church) are told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath (1Thes 5:9). I believe that we, like the faithful church in Philadelphia, will be kept from the hour of temptation that shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth (Rev 3:10). We will be removed from the earth (raptured) prior to this hour of temptation. I believe, like you, that this hour of temptation is the period of God's wrath poured out at the beginning of the day of the Lord. These truths, we could say, are self evident or easy to grasp. We both have these truths in common.

However, the question remains: "When does God's wrath begin to be poured out upon the earth dwellers?" If we find conclusive statements in the Word of God concerning the timing of the beginning of God's wrath being poured out we can therefore know that we will be raptured prior to that point.

It just so happens that this period, that contains the pouring out of God's wrath, is the most spoken of event in all of the Holy Scriptures. It is called the day of the LORD. If I understand you correctly, you recognize that it is the wrath of God in the day of the Lord that the church is "kept from". So, the question further defined is: "When does the day of the Lord begin?"

There are a hand full of explicit statements concerning conditions that must be so or events that must take place before the day of the Lord can begin. Lets look at some of them.

1) Elijah must come first

Mal 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Elijah will come and turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers. He will come and fulfill his ministry before the day of the Lord begins.

2) There must be a great cosmic sign

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Many of the eschatological day of the Lord passages mention this cosmic sign involving the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars.

3) Paul gives two conditions: an apostasia (a notable departure from the faith) and the man of sin (Beast) revealed in the temple

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The day of Christ (or the day of the Lord as many manuscripts have it) will not come until the conditions are met that Paul identifies.

Since you see apostasia in an unorthodox way and Elijah's coming might not be easy to identify from this side of the world, lets focus on an event that will be unmistakable and evident to everyone. This event will allow us to identify the beginning of the day of the Lord in relation to other eschatological happenings.

The cosmic sign

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

First it is certain that Joel's cosmic sign must precede the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. The word "before" in this context means "prior to". We know this because Peter quotes this verse in Acts 2:20 and Luke under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit recorded it with a Greek word that only means "prior to", as apposed to the Hebrew that Joel used that could mean "in the face of". Since this cosmic sign must come before the day of the Lord are there any other mentions of the sign in relation to the events of the seventieth week? Absolutely.

The most obvious is what John sees when the sixth seal is opened.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

What John sees corresponds closely to Isaiah's prophecy concerning the reaction of the wicked on the day of the LORD when God's wrath is impending. Notice the great earthquake.

Isa 2:19  And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

This that John sees is the response of the earth dwellers to the impending wrath of God which is to begin the very same day. I say "the very same day" because both Jesus and Paul make it clear that the day of Christ's coming and our gathering unto Him will initiate His wrath in the day of the Lord.

The very same day

Notice that Jesus says that when God's wrath was poured out in the days of Noah and Lot, that they were taken to safety, before wrath fell upon the wicked, and that it fell upon them the very same day. He then says that it will happen the same way in the day of His revelation, which is at His coming.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Notice that Paul identifies that the church will be free from trouble, or to say it another way, have rest from being persecuted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed. It is at Christ's revelation that the church's persecutors will face tribulation in the form of God's vengeance.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Both Jesus and Paul teach that our rescue (rapture) will take place upon the very day that God's wrath falls upon the wicked.

If the wrath of God is preceded by the sun, moon, and stars going dark, and if our rescue (that is, those of us who are alive and remain or survive) happens the same day God's wrath falls upon the wicked, then we can understand that God's wrath doesn't fall until after the cosmic sign seen at the opening of the sixth seal. In fact with further study we will see that the first stroke of God's eschatological wrath is the first trumpet judgement in Rev 8.

No wrath of God upon the wicked at the fifth seal

Notice that there has been no vengeance yet at the opening of the 5th seal. The martyred saints are crying out that their blood be avenged upon the earth dwellers. They are told that vengeance would not come for a little season until others are martyred also.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So, there is no wrath of God yet at the opening of the fifth seal.

The first mention of God's wrath in the Revelation is at the opening of the sixth seal where it is portended

Notice also that this is the first use of the word wrath in relation to God's indignation in the book of Revelation. All twelve uses of God's wrath in the book come after the sixth seal is opened.

These cosmic events portend Christ's coming and the wrath that will follow.

Notice what Luke records of Christ's words at the Olivet Discourse.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Jesus says there is 1) the cosmic sign, 2) followed by His coming in a cloud and 3) the redemption of the believer.

Mathew records records Christ's words with additional information.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus here says after 1) great tribulation is cut short (Vs 22) 2) the cosmic sign will appear, 3) then all the world shall see Him coming in the clouds, and 4) He will send His angels to gather His elect to Him.

Are these cosmic signs all the same event?

We have seen some of the places where a cosmic sign is spoken of. The question is whether or not they all refer to the same event. Since there is no statement in any of the passages that "this is that which Joel spoke of," we must reason from the evidence to determine if these all speak of the same event. Lets examine the evidence.

1) Rev 6:12-17

We have already seen from Rev 6:9-11 that God's wrath will not be poured out until a little season after the opening of the fifth seal. We have also seen that at the opening of the sixth seal is the first use of (God's) wrath in the Book. It is also observable that the language used for the cosmic sign is very close between Joel 2:31 and Rev 6:12. Even though "the day of the Lord" is not mentioned by name in Rev 6:12-17 many prophetic aspects of it are present: a great earthquake, the hiding and fear of the wicked, cosmic signs, and the impending wrath of God. It can also be understood that this event portends Christ and involves Christ's coming.

The evidence is extremely strong in favor Rev 6:12-13 being Joel's cosmic sign which must come before the day of the Lord.

2) Luke 21:25-28 and Matt 24:29-31

Since these are both parallel accounts of Christ's words in the Olivet discourse we shall treat them as a comprehensive statement. In the Olivet discourse Jesus is answering four of His disciples questions: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matt 24:3) They wanted to know what events would signal that Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence) is at hand (near).

In the answer to their questions Jesus speaks of the condition of the world at the end of the age, leading up to His second coming. He describes a period of trouble involving deception, conquest, war, famine, pestilences, and earthquakes. This period He calls the beginning of sorrows. Note, that nothing about the beginning of sorrows is said to be unprecedented.

After this He identifies a time of severe persecution for Christ's name sake and an associated great deception. He says it will involve many being offended and betraying one another. This will be a great falling away from the Faith. He goes on to further describe this period of severe persecution of the elect and Israel as unprecedented great tribulation. He also ties the beginning of great tribulation to the defiling of the temple (abomination of desolation) spoken of by Daniel. Daniel records that it takes place in the middle of the seventieth week. Jesus says that the persecution will be so severe that it must be Divinely cut short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth. He goes on to warn of great signs and wonders done by the false Christ and false prophet, saying that the deceptive quality of them is so great that if it were possible they would deceive even the very elect. From there He cautions that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, so, do not believe all the various false reports that will be given.

He says that His revelation, at His parousia, will follow the cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark, which will signal that the great tribulation is over. The world at that point will immediately become fearful, however the persecuted saints which have survived, at that time will look up and lift up their heads, for their redemption draweth nigh. Jesus says that He will appear in the clouds of heaven with His holy angels. When all the unbelieving world sees Him in His glory, He says they will mourn. He says that He will then send His angels to gather His elect to Him in the clouds.

Now having seen much of Christ's answer, what is the evidence that the cosmic sign He speaks of is that of Joel 2:31 and that which John sees at the opening of the sixth seal.

The cosmic sign of Matt 24:29 and Luke 21:25-26 happens before the revelation of Christ with all His holy angels. This is consistent with Paul's description that the at the revelation of Christ the church will find rest from persecution and God's wrath will be poured out.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

There is no mention of God's wrath in the Olivet Discourse until it is inferred in the example of the flood which takes place after the elect are gathered to Christ.

In the chronology given by Christ the cosmic sign of Matt 24:29, Mark 13:24-25, and Luke 21:25 is the first and only cosmic sign mentioned.

There is strong evidence that the cosmic sign of which Jesus speaks is that prophesied by Joel.

The implications are that the wrath of God in the day of the Lord begins after the great tribulation, the cosmic sign, Christ's revelation in glory in the clouds with the holy angels, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture of the elect (church), the church being escorted to the Father's house to stand before the throne, and the sealing of the 144,000. Then after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven at the blowing of the first trumpet God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earthdwellers.

Hallelujah

 

 

 

The fact of the matter is, I am a WWII Vet, in my 95th year, having spent two years in the Pacific/Asiatic theater with the USAAF Air Corp during the war.

With reference to the Day of the Lord, and when it begins:  We are told when that will begin in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.  Before the man of lawlessness is revealed.  He is revealed in Dan.9:27 [Among a number of other places], as the HE who will confirm a binding seven year agreement [covenant], in addition to the two following "he's" after the three and a half year middle of the week.  Review what Paul wrote about it in 2 Thess.2:2 and 3. 

 

Quasar93

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...