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The chronological order of end time events


Quasar93

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4 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, you and I agree that the "The very first verse in the passage in 2 Thess.2:1-8, is the theme of it: ""...About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him...," is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where all believers will meet the Lord together, in the clouds of the sky". Where you go wrong is when you add "BEFORE the tribulation begins". However, there is a since that your wording could be considered correct. But, only so, if by "tribulation" you mean the "tribulation" referred to in 2Thes 1:6.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The tribulation spoken of there, is God's wrath poured out in the day of the Lord against the Beast worshipers who had been persecuting the church. That tribulation is fundamentally different than the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of. The great tribulation is the unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers. As Paul says the church will find rest from persecution, even the most extreme form of it, "great tribulation", when Christ comes and pours out His vengeance upon the persecutors of the church and Israel.

Concerning the time that the church is safely before the throne in Heaven while God's wrath is poured out. This takes place after great tribulation is cut short by Christ's return in the latter portion of the week (Matt 24:29-31).

Also you are confused into thinking that there is two comings of Christ in the future, when there is only one parousia (arrival and continuing presence) of Christ yet to come.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

Each of these refer to the arrival of Christ at His second coming. He comes the second time to stay (this doesn't mean He will be on the earth right away, but He will be actively engaged in avenging the murders of His own, through the trumpet, and vial judgements). There will not be a third parousia. It is important to note that His second coming is much more than His arrival, as spectacular as that will be. At His parousia:

  • He will be revealed to all,
  • He will resurrect the dead in Christ and change the living believer.
  • He will send angels to catch up the survivors together with the resurrected saints to be with Him in the clouds.
  • He will escort us to the Fathers house to stand before the throne.
  • He will cause the 144,000 to be sealed for protection while remaining upon the earth through the pouring out of His wrath.
  • He will begin the salvos of His wrath after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven when the first trumpet is blown.
  • While the earth dwellers face His wrath we will stand before the bema seat in Heaven to be Judged
  • etc

Much like Christ's first coming was more than His conception or birth, so also, His second coming will be comprehensive. The problem is that you have Him arriving twice, once secretly and also in the end week for all to see. What you fail to see is that Revelation 19 is not depicting His arrival but His action against the Beast and the armies which follow him at the end of the week. The truth is that He only arrives once for all to see (Rev 1:7, 1 Thes 4:15-17; Matt 24:29-31). The Beast worshipers who had been persecuting the saints unto death will hide at His revelation (Rev 6:12-17). However, the persecuted saints that survive to that time will have our heads up and be looking for Him when the cosmic sign and great earthquake portends His arrival (Luke 21:28).

Instead of setting the saints at ease, you should be warning them, like Jesus did, concerning the great persecution that will come upon the last generation of His elect, the church and Israel.

Hallelujah

 

See my post to Joe Canada just before this one, on this thrad for the Scriptural timing of the coming pretrib rapture of the Church.  Too bad these posts are not numbered as it would make resoses so easy to make with accuracy.

 

 

Quasar93

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3 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

The pre-trib satanic theory is a Devil's strategy to disarm believers for the battle that will take place now in this beginning of this first century of the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day (a Day for the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years as one Day).  The fullness of Gentiles has already arrived, and our Lord JESUS is already sat on the throne of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ.

What you are preaching is doctrine of demons, it is not of God'men, absolutely, it is an apostate doctrine invented by spirits of demons to deceive the believers. By the way, the true believers do not forget the warns of the Holy Spirit by the Apostle Peter, saying:We have not followed cunningly devised FABLES, when we made known unto you the power and COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRISTYea, what you are preaching and writing here are cunningly devised fables of demons, you have been deceived by a satanic Trinity and in turn you are deceiving others.      

Now there will will be a STRONG SPIRITUAL WAR, yes, a great spiritual war, in accord the prophetical message of JESUS in Revelation 16:v.13to16:
v.13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon, and out of the MOUTH of the Beast, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet.  (A SATANIC TRINITY)
v.14 For they are the spirits of devils working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that Great Day of God Almighty (NOW IS: THIS GREAT DAY).   (Yea, this Great Day of God Almighty has already arrived, that is the seventh and last millennium, the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Millennium of Vengeance, in which we are living, that is the seventh and last Day, and Christ will come soon in accord His promise)
v.15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
v.16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


 If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?


Furthermore, no man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please Him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. (2 Ti. 2:v.4-5)
 

JESUS left very clear, saying: (Rev.2:26-29)
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

 

Obviously, you did not read the four posts in the link wih the teachings of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul that refute you, in my previous post.  I will post the first of the four posts in it for you to refute any part of it by the Scriptures, or your missguided views are the ones that are false:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/the-biblical-teaching-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!

The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf
 

Quasar93

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15 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

Too bad these posts are not numbered as it would make resoses so easy to make with accuracy.

 

At the top right of your post, there is a share ths post feature. Click that, and you will get the URL to the specific post you want to refer to, and just add the URL in your reply. Then, if the person cares to respond they can just click the link you supplied, and be taken directly to the post itself. Not sure if that was clear, but hopefully it is.

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"You are saying that, but about myself, what prevails is the Word of God"

 

Yes the word of God prevails

Today's believers will be made immortal just before the coming tribulation period

Revelation 3:10 and other scriptures tell this truth 

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9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation Man, the reason that we place the beginning of sorrows in the first half of the week is because Christ's description of that time parallels closely that which John sees at the opening of the first three seals. Remember, Jesus is answering the question about the sign of His coming, that is, what events will indicate the Lord's return is at hand. This lets us know that the general time He is referring to is that at the end of the age.

Actually Jesus was asked about three things, when will these things be (Temple and city destroyed) when will you return, and when will the world end. 

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? So its not just about the sign of his coming. 

9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

By the way, there is nothing peaceful about the first 3 1/2 years. That is an assumption forced into the week by the artificial pre-trib model for the rapture of the church. The 3 1/2 years that follow the confirming of the covenant with many will have conquest, war, pestilence, famine, earthquakes, and deception. (Rev 6:1-8; Matt 24:4-8) But nothing is said about it being unprecedented, we have seen these types of events since the fall.

 

The bible says different, I don't listen to what men say. And the bible says that the Church goes to heaven, marries the Lamb and RETURNS while the Beast and his Kings are still on earth, this isn't event debatable, its stuff we are supposed to learn as young Christians, its MILK vs, MEAT. Daniel 8:25 says BY PEACE he destroys MANY, Rev. 6 says he TAKES PEACE from the earth, showing there was peace before the 3.5 year mark. 

The war, pestilence, famine and earthquakes of Matthew 24:1-14 have absolutely NOTHING to do with the End Time Events. You and others who try to incorporate that into being truth are being naive you act like the Church Age was not supposed to be TRIBULATION, but Jesus said otherwise. The Keys to understanding things are looking at the TIMING.

Matt. 24:1-6 ends in 70 AD, with Jesus saying the END IS NOT YET. So when Rome sacks Jerusalem and destroys the Temple here, Jesus is saying this is not Zechariah ch. 14, that will be BY and BY. He also spoke of FAKE Messiahs put forth in verse 5, that was the Jews/Pharisees Jesus prophesied about in John 5:43, when he stated they would put forth other Messiahs who came in their own name, but would reject him who came in the Fathers name.

Then he says the time of sorrows is upon you, and this period BIRTHS the end times Troubles of Jacob. It IS NOT the end time troubles, it is the 2000 year Church Age. Jesus told his Disciples that in this period of time they would all BE KILLED (Save John). Stated that many false prophets would arise, we have had 2000 years of Robert Tiltons, David Koresh's and Jim Jones types.  He that endures until THE END means the end of ones life, we must run the FULL RACE. Then verse 14 tells it all, the Gospel must be preached unto all the earth, then the END [of the Church Age] will come, and the Troubles of Jacob will be upon the world.

Verses 15 on to 31 is the TRIBULATION PERIOD, it starts of at the 3.5 year Mark. 

The first part of Matthew from verse 1-14 has nothing to do with the Tribulation period. The Signs are many, but they must be seen by those living in the Tribulation, no other Generation works.

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On 4/23/2018 at 3:34 AM, Revelation Man said:

Actually Jesus was asked about three things, when will these things be (Temple and city destroyed) when will you return, and when will the world end. 

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? So its not just about the sign of his coming. 

The bible says different, I don't listen to what men say. And the bible says that the Church goes to heaven, marries the Lamb and RETURNS while the Beast and his Kings are still on earth, this isn't event debatable, its stuff we are supposed to learn as young Christians, its MILK vs, MEAT. Daniel 8:25 says BY PEACE he destroys MANY, Rev. 6 says he TAKES PEACE from the earth, showing there was peace before the 3.5 year mark. 

The war, pestilence, famine and earthquakes of Matthew 24:1-14 have absolutely NOTHING to do with the End Time Events. You and others who try to incorporate that into being truth are being naive you act like the Church Age was not supposed to be TRIBULATION, but Jesus said otherwise. The Keys to understanding things are looking at the TIMING.

Matt. 24:1-6 ends in 70 AD, with Jesus saying the END IS NOT YET. So when Rome sacks Jerusalem and destroys the Temple here, Jesus is saying this is not Zechariah ch. 14, that will be BY and BY. He also spoke of FAKE Messiahs put forth in verse 5, that was the Jews/Pharisees Jesus prophesied about in John 5:43, when he stated they would put forth other Messiahs who came in their own name, but would reject him who came in the Fathers name.

Then he says the time of sorrows is upon you, and this period BIRTHS the end times Troubles of Jacob. It IS NOT the end time troubles, it is the 2000 year Church Age. Jesus told his Disciples that in this period of time they would all BE KILLED (Save John). Stated that many false prophets would arise, we have had 2000 years of Robert Tiltons, David Koresh's and Jim Jones types.  He that endures until THE END means the end of ones life, we must run the FULL RACE. Then verse 14 tells it all, the Gospel must be preached unto all the earth, then the END [of the Church Age] will come, and the Troubles of Jacob will be upon the world.

Verses 15 on to 31 is the TRIBULATION PERIOD, it starts of at the 3.5 year Mark. 

The first part of Matthew from verse 1-14 has nothing to do with the Tribulation period. The Signs are many, but they must be seen by those living in the Tribulation, no other Generation works.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation Boy, yes I meant to use boy instead of man to get your attention. When commenting, it is not my intention to expound to you every last detail of the Holy Scriptures. The reason I only brought up the middle of the three questions is that it was the one which pertained to our discussion. "When shall these things be", refers to the destruction of the city and temple which took place in 70 AD. "And of the end of the world" (aeon), this is equivalent with Christ's coming since it is when Christ returns.

Children like to speak of the obvious (it is that which adults take as a given, something already understood) thinking that it makes themselves look like an adult. Revelation Boy it is time for you to go to school.

Lesson 1

We have the privilege of being given three parallel accounts of the Olivet Discourse. The observance of all three will provide us with a clear picture of what Christ was communicating. To understand the chronology of events as Christ spoke of them we must pay close attention to words which carry temporal (relating to time) meaning.

Notice that both Matthew and Luke record details of the period that Jesus calls the beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Luk 21:8  And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Luk 21:9  But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Luk 21:10  Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11  And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Notice also that what John sees at the opening of the first three seals corresponds closely with Christ's description of the beginning of sorrows.

Rev 6:1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3  And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4  And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Rev 6:5  And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6  And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

These are the beginning of sorrows, or early birth pains. It is interesting that Luke records that Jesus told the disciples what takes place before the beginning of sorrows. Note the temporal language used.

Luk 21:12  But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13  And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14  Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luk 21:15  For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luk 21:16  And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Luk 21:17  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
Luk 21:18  But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luk 21:19  In your patience possess ye your souls.

Jesus in Luke describes the various persecutions of the church age, especially at the beginning of it. However, Matthew follows the details of the beginning of sorrows with "then", and gives a description of great tribulation. This great tribulation (unprecedented persecution of the elect (church) and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers) is given further clarification by Jesus in verses 15 thru 29 of Matthew's account. We know this is true because of the use of "therefore" in verse 15.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

So, we see that there is persecution before the beginning of sorrows (from the days of the Apostles until now) and at the time of and following the beginning of sorrows.

Luke is the only one of the three that records Christ's answer concerning the destruction of the city and temple.

Luk 21:20  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21  Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22  For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Obviously you haven't looked at any of my comments or posts if you think that I teach there is no tribulation or persecution for the church. We have been, and are presently being persecuted, and after the revelation of the Beast in the middle of the week that persecution will become so severe that Christ calls it unprecedented great tribulation. He also says that He must cut it short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22). He does this with His return.

That's all I have time for now Revelation Man.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

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You are wrong son .... the Lord is speaking about the coming tribulation period of the 70th week decreed which begins in Revelation chapter eight and ends in Revelation 19

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On 4/17/2018 at 9:32 AM, Quasar93 said:

 

Everyone who ever died in Christ, together with everyone who belongs to Jesus when He returns for His Church, in  1 Thess.4:14-17, will meet Him in the clouds of the sky together, and the Church age ends.

All those who will be saved during the tribulation, will be all those who are left be3hind, when the Church is raptured.  They will be saved by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists God will return to the earth, that He redeems from the earth [recorded in Rev.14:5], who will pay for their testimony of Jesus with their lives [Recorded in Rev.7:9-17 and 20-4].  They are the tribulation martyrs/saints, and do not belong to the Church, or they would be raptured with all other believers before the tribulation begins.

 

 

Qyasar93

There are no separate groups. Paul taught all are one in Christ. Your conclusions are wrong in that you have ignored the most basic teachings of the Lord and the Apostles.

I still have hope you'll come to the light of truth in Jesus and be set free.

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9 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

You are wrong son .... the Lord is speaking about the coming tribulation period of the 70th week decreed which begins in Revelation chapter eight and ends in Revelation 19

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Daniel 11:36, should I address you as "old man", since you seem to diminutively call other commenters "son".

You are wrong again, the great tribulation corresponds with what John sees at the opening of the 4th and 5th seals. Just as the beginning of sorrows corresponds with the first three seals.

You have a hard time believing what Jesus said concerning the cosmic sign that appears immediately following the great tribulation (Matt 24:29). You know the cosmic sign that Joel and Peter said would come before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20). The same cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal (Rev 6:12). God's wrath shall not be poured out upon the earth dwellers until the day of the Lord, and the day of the Lord cannot come until the cosmic sign takes place, and the cosmic sign cannot happen until the great tribulation is cut short.

You are having a hard time understanding that the time of unprecedented severe persecution Jesus called great tribulation is different and independent of the wrath of God poured out upon the day of the Lord. They are separated from one another by the cosmic sign, Christ's return, the first resurrection, the rapture, and the sealing of the 144,000, all of which takes place upon the very day of Christ'a arrival.

You are right to think that God's wrath begins in Revelation 8 at the blowing of the first trumpet, however, that is not the period Jesus called great tribulation. The first trumpet is the beginning of God's wrath in the day of the Lord which comes after the we are removed from the earth to safety in Heaven.

What John sees at the opening of the sixth seal is the cosmic sign which portends the day of the Lord (Rev 6:12-17). The day of the Lord begins with Christ's coming (parousia) 2Thes 2:1-2). The parousia involves His arrival and continuing presence. Upon revealing Himself to all the world at His arrival (Rev 1:7), Christ will resurrect the dead in Christ (1Cor 15:51-52; Dan 12:1-2) and rapture them together with the elect who survived great tribulation (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:15-17). He will escort us to the fathers house to stand before the throne (Rev 7:9-17). He will seal the 144,000 for protection from the trumpet and vial judgements (Rev 7:1-8). Then, after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven shall He begin to pour out His wrath over the many months or years that remain in the second half of the week (Rev 8-).

Hallelujah

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"You are right to think that God's wrath begins in Revelation 8 at the blowing of the first trumpet, however, that is not the period Jesus called great tribulation"

 

All of the 70th week will be great tribulation .... the Lord says no different

You do not want to go there

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