The chronological order of end time events

[Revelation Man]

36 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Quasar....

It is in brotherly love that I dialogue with you. Two brothers in Christ who share scriptures to rightly divide the truth. Iron sharpens Iron.

I'm a researcher. And I spend most of my time researching the scriptures to see if what is being taught as truth is the truth. 

Here is a quote from the rest of the article: (Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.)

It is well established that E. Schuyler English is thought to be the first
pretribulationist to propose that “the departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was a physical departure and thus a reference to the pre-trib rapture. However, history records that at least a couple of men thought of this idea before English’s series of article in 1950.11 J. S.
Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.12 He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star.13 Another
pre-English proponent of “the departure” as the rapture was John R. Rice in a book in 1945.14

 

From the Douay-Rheims Bible:

The day of the Lord is not to come till the man of sin be revealed. The apostle's traditions are to be observed. [1] And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: [2] That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Others: John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), crazed cult leader, founder of the Exclusive Brethren and "god" of  the Pre-Trib Rapture Center (PTRC) and the PWMI, is falsely credited with"discovering" the pre-tribulation rapture by Ice and his associates. Yet even the "mighty" Darby translated 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as the apostasy..   Darby Bible Translation: "Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;" {12}   Darby: "With nominal Christians this has necessarily the character of apostacy, or at least it is connected with this apostacy, and is consequent upon it; as Verse 3 (Th2 2:3) teaches us, the apostacy takes place, and then the man of sin is revealed." {13}   Erasmus: "signifies that great and before-predicted apostasy." {14}   John Wesley:  2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first.{15}   More recently, Christian Apologist and pretribulationist Dave Hunt (1926-2013), interpreted apostasia as the apostasy: "Paul says that the apostasy precedes the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess 2:3)." {16}       This article is about the early Church Writers..... Please take time to read it.    "2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy"."   How did the Early Church Writers view 2 Thess 2?  With one voice, both those who spoke Greek natively and those who learned it as a Scriptural language, seem to agree that "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 refers to an apostacy, not a rapture.  Several of these men spoke Greek natively and all studied it and knew it as an academic language. Translations How the Scriptures appear in various languages can sometimes remove ambiguity if one language has ambiguity another does not.  Regardless of what new meanings theologians with an agenda try to read into the Greek "apostacia", it was translated in early Church times as "abscessio" (dispute, rebel, etc) in the Old Latin and appears in Aramaic as "מרודותא" = rebellion.  The modern Vulgate translates "Apostacia" as "discessio", which means division or rebellion.  Both the Old and Modern Latin fit the theme of rebellion, not rapture. All of these confirm that the Greek "apostacia" means "apostacy", and not a rapture. 2 Thess 2:3 uses the Latin / Greek / Aramaic words for "Rebellion" / apostacy = "abscessio" / "apostacia" / "מרודותא", and not the words for rapture, which is "raptum" / "arpages" / "chatufa".  So no early manuscript of 2 Thess 2:3 interprets "apostacia" to mean "rapture", as some WANT it to mean. Irenaeus (130-200) Irenaeus quoted the Old Latin translation of "abscessio" in Against Heresies V.25.  In Against Heresies V.25.5, he says this after quoting 2 Thess 2 and commenting on it, "From all these passages are revealed to us, not merely the particulars of the apostasy (apostaciae), and [the doings] of him who concentrates in himself every satanic error..." (Against Heresies V.25.5) What is interesting here is that Latin has a direct transliteration of "αποστασία" into Latin, which is "apostaciae".  This of course indicates that he was aware of the original Greek wording of 2 Thess 2:3, and uses it in Latin, analyzing it as "apostacy" and not with some other meaning.  Irenaeus was born in Smyrna / Izmir of modern day Turkey, and thus would have grown up speaking Greek.  He was bishop to Lyons, France (Southwest France about 90 miles from Geneva, Switzerland) where he would have had to have learned Provencial French and Latin to function as a cleric in that society.  Here, Irenaeus is saying something I've said before, that the CONTEXT of 2 Thess 2 fits interpretting "apostacia" as "apostacy" because the entire chapter is talking about apostacy.  It is talking about the apostacy the son of perdition will lead.  So Irenaeus uses the Latin "apostaciae" in V.25.5 and paraphrases it as "abscessio" in V.25.1, which has a variant of rebellion, not rapture. In fact, in the chapter preceeding this section, before he quotes 2 Thess 2, he is discussing the concept of apostacy before he quotes this passage.  So both the context that sets up the quote and his commentary on it support that he understood this passage to refer to an "apostacy", not a rapture.  So the flow of the context of what he says following like this....   Against Heresies V.24 A general discussion of apostacy, not related to end times Against Heresies V.25-early Quotes 2 Thess 2:3 and related text and analyzes it Against Heresies V.25-late Discusses the apostacies the lawless one will cause. So Irenaeus definitely shed a lot of light on how "αποστασία" was interpretted as meaning apostacy, not rapture.  In Chapter 28, titled "...the future apostacy in the time of the AntiChrist...", he goes into even mroe detail about the apostacy of the end times. Justin Martyr (150-160 AD) Like Irenaeus, Justin also sees "apostacy" in the meaning of 2 Thess 2:3 and sees the word indicating what the "Lawless one" will cause, since he calls him the "Man of Apostacy" in Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter CX.  He qualifies what  apostacy is by saying he would, "speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians" (ibid). He also says, " 'Sata' in the Jewish and Syrian tongue means apostate" (Dialogue, Chapter CIII) and later calls Satan "an apostate from the will of God" (Dialogue, Chapter CXXV). Tertullian (160-225 AD) Tertullian quotes 2 Thess 2:3 with the same Latin wording as Irenaeus, but makes little comment on it. Hippolytus (170-236) Hippolytus seems to connect the abomination of desolation with 2 Thess 2:3, suggesting that he sees the abomination of desolation as the act of apostacy referred to in 2 Thess 2:3 when it refers to "apostacy".  This is a bit different from Irenaeus' view, who sees "apostacy" as referring to MANY things that will occur, both a rebellion against the faith by people but also the wide range of rebellions that the False Messiah will lead the populace into.   Ephraim the Syrian (306-373) Ephraim quotes 2 Thess 2:3 and says this... "The Apostle has penned a warning for us in his epistle to the Thessalonians: ‘Let no word or no letter trouble you that is not from us. For the rebellion comes first, also the Man of Sin And he will exalt himself over God, Making himself to be God.’ And when the Accursed One comes and displays his mighty works and wonders, the nations will gather together and come as (if) they were going to see God....every person will renounce their deity;" (Sermon by Ephraim on the End of the World ) So he clearly interprets "apostacy" here as rebellion and sees that "apostacy" as meaning, "every person will renounce their deity."  Muslims will renounce Allah in favor of the False Messiah as their god.  Buddhists will renounce Buddah in favor of the FM.  Nominal Christians will renounce the Real Messiah for the False one.  That is the picture of "apostacy" that Ephraim paints for his reader.  They will accept the "man of sin" as "god". Cyril (315-387) Cyril attempts to reconstruct the chain of events that will occur in sequential order during the end times, but omits any mention of a rapture. Like Hippolytus, he too connects the abomination of desolation with 2 Thess 2:3 seeing it as the apparent act of apostacy cited in 2 Thess 2:3.  He also quotes heavily on the word "Apostacy" itself, saying this, "Thus wrote Paul, and now is the falling away.  For men have fallen away from the right faith; and some preach the identity of the Son with the Father, and others dare to say that Christ was brought into being out of nothing.  And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  For men have fallen away from the truth, and have itching ears." (Cyril Lecture XV)  His comments give plenty of examples of how he interpreted the word "apostacia", and he sees it as something that has already begun, citing heretical teachings of his day. Augustine (354-430 AD) Augustine has this to say, "No one can doubt that he wrote this of Antichrist and of the day of judgment, which he here calls the day of the Lord, nor that he declared that this day should not come unless he first came who is called the apostate —apostate, to wit, from the Lord God" (City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19) So here Augustine seems to suggest a similar interpretation to what Irenaeus and Justin proposed.   John Chrysostrom (349-407) John Chrysostrom was a Greek speaker who wrote in Greek.  He quotes 2 Thess 2:3 and then says this.... "...except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed...Here he discourses concerning the Antichrist, and reveals great mysteries. What is “the falling away?”  [The Greek word translated “falling away” is that which we borrow as apostasy.—J.A.B.] He calls him Apostasy, as being about to destroy many, and make them fall away....he will not introduce idolatry, but will be a kind of opponent to God; he will abolish all the gods, and will order men to worship him instead of God" (Homily on 2 Thess)   The COLLECTIVE Other early writers quote 2 Thess 2, but some don't analyze it is a way to indicate how they interpreted "apostacia."  Some analyze other aspects of the text.  For example, many early writers commented on who the "Restrainer" was. But of those that did comment in such a way as to indicate HOW they interpreted the word "apostacia", they all interpret it to mean APOSTACY and give enough examples of that.  They discuss different aspects of what "apostacy" could mean, indicating they are getting at least part of their analysis out of the meaning of the word, rather than from tradition.  For example, Iranaeus, Justin, Augustine and Chrysostrum see the "apostacy" as the rebellion of the False Messiah himself. Hippolytus and Cyril both see the abomination of desolation included in the meaning of "apostacia". Ephraim sees "every person will renounce their deity" in the meaning of "apostacia" Cyril sees heretical ideas of his time in the meaning of "apostacia" So a variety of aspects of "apostacy" are included in how the early Church interpreted the word "apostacia" / apostacy in 2 Thess 2:3.  But all of them see some form of rebellion in the meaning of the word and none see this as a rapture.  Note that all 3 Latin writers see "apostacy" in the rebellious acts of the Man of Apostacy, and 2 Greek writers see the abomination of desolation in "apostacia".  Iraenaeus grew up speaking Greek, so he counts in both categories linguistically, but more with the Latin West culturally. That's it for now brother. Take care.

Now use common sense. What is being spoken of in the passage brother? A GATHERING UNTO Jesus, BEFORE that Wrath of God (DOTL) comes. Now how does one even remotely get a Departure from the Faith from this passage, when the Church is being spoken of as GATHERING unto the Lord? 

Its obvious what is Departing brother. 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

That will be complete at the Rapture. As the 70's song says, We just disagree. The Gospel is still going forth via TV unto the ends of the world. Its nigh complete, I grant you that. 

Just because the gospel is still going forth is irrelevant.  No one said it would cease going forth once it was preached to all the nations.

• And Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  Luke 21:24b

Jerusalem is autonomous.  The times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.  The gospel has been preached around the world, and continues to be preached.

[Revelation Man]

15 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Just because the gospel is still going forth is irrelevant.  No one said it would cease going forth once it was preached to all the nations.

• And Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  Luke 21:24b

Jerusalem is autonomous.  The times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.  The gospel has been preached around the world, and continues to be preached.

We have to weigh all the factors/scriptures here brother. 

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

To this day Israel does not control all of Jerusalem, Gentiles yet trodden under foot Jerusalem somewhat, even having the Dome of the Rock still standing there. When we couple that with Romans 11:25 where it states that Israel is BLINDED IN PART until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, that tells us its a future event, because Israel have not yet repented. The Two-witnesses show up at the 1335, 75 days before the 1260. That is when Israel or the Jewish peoples Repent. 

The times of the Gentiles refer to God giving the mantle of the Gospel to the "Gentile Church" this is why in Romans ch. 9 Paul is stating that God can use whomsoever He wills, does not the potter create the vessel, did not God chose Jacob over Esau? 

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? (WHY) Because they sought it NOT BY FAITH, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

When the Fullness of the Gentiles comes in Israel's BLINDNESS will be taken away, they will be grafted back in because of FAITH in Christ Jesus. The Church is Raptured, the 70th Week begins, then 1335 days before the Second Coming the Two-witnesses show up and Israel repents.

The Anti-Christ will again trodden Jerusalem under foot for 42 months. So this time period must be very short when Israel controls Jerusalem in full, I imagine this is when they will rebuild the Temple, just after the Rapture or just before the Rapture. 

I think there is a Gog Magog war way before Armageddon. 

[Daniel 11:36]

"Just because the gospel is still going forth is irrelevant"

 

What do you mean by making this statement?

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

We have to weigh all the factors/scriptures here brother. 

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The times of the Gentiles is different from the fullness of the Gentiles.  The difference is the same as sowing and reaping.  The seed of the gospel has been sown around the world.  The fullness of the harvest will take place when Jesus returns.

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

To this day Israel does not control all of Jerusalem, Gentiles yet trodden under foot Jerusalem somewhat, even having the Dome of the Rock still standing there.

Just because there is an area of dispute does not mean that the entire city of Jerusalem is trodden under foot by the Gentiles.  That explanation almost sounds agenda-driven.

[ScottA]

On 4/16/2018 at 7:44 AM, Quasar93 said:

The prophetic chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

That does not reconcile with:

1 Corinthians 15:23

But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

[Steve Conley]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

We have to weigh all the factors/scriptures here brother. 

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

To this day Israel does not control all of Jerusalem, Gentiles yet trodden under foot Jerusalem somewhat, even having the Dome of the Rock still standing there. When we couple that with Romans 11:25 where it states that Israel is BLINDED IN PART until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, that tells us its a future event, because Israel have not yet repented. The Two-witnesses show up at the 1335, 75 days before the 1260. That is when Israel or the Jewish peoples Repent. 

The times of the Gentiles refer to God giving the mantle of the Gospel to the "Gentile Church" this is why in Romans ch. 9 Paul is stating that God can use whomsoever He wills, does not the potter create the vessel, did not God chose Jacob over Esau? 

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? (WHY) Because they sought it NOT BY FAITH, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

When the Fullness of the Gentiles comes in Israel's BLINDNESS will be taken away, they will be grafted back in because of FAITH in Christ Jesus. The Church is Raptured, the 70th Week begins, then 1335 days before the Second Coming the Two-witnesses show up and Israel repents.

The Anti-Christ will again trodden Jerusalem under foot for 42 months. So this time period must be very short when Israel controls Jerusalem in full, I imagine this is when they will rebuild the Temple, just after the Rapture or just before the Rapture. 

I think there is a Gog Magog war way before Armageddon. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation Man, the times of the Gentiles has nothing to do with the fullness of the Gentiles. The Times of the Gentiles is the period of Gentile hegemony over Israel and Jerusalem. The fullness of the Gentiles refers to God calling out a people for Himself from among the Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy. 

The fullness of the Gentiles will be come in when the great tribulation is cut short by Christ's return. That is when the last Gentile is added to Christ. It is at that point that blindness in part is removed from Israel. This happens before God begins to pour out his wrath upon the Beast worshiping persecutors of the elect and Israel. We know that an innumerable company of Gentiles come out of great tribulation (Rev 7:9-17). So, Israel is still under the decreed blindness from God until after the great tribulation is over at Christ's parousia.

The times of the Gentiles will continue until the Beast and the armies that follow him are destroyed in the end of the week. John records, "...the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." (Rev 11:2) These 42 months take place in the second half of the week.

The order is:

1) The covenant confirmed with the many begins the seventieth week (Dan 9:27). Just as the church age began with exclusively Jewish believers, so also, will the Church continue into the week determined upon Israel and Jerusalem. God dealt with Israel in 70 AD for their rejection of their Messiah in the midst of the Church age and He deals with them now in the midst of the church age by provoking them to jealousy. It is to be expected that He will again deal with them at the end of the church age.

2) Deception, conquest, war, pestilence, famines, and earthquakes take place in the beginning of sorrows (Matt 24:4-8; Luke 21:10-11; Rev 6:1-6). Note, that nothing is said to be unprecedented about these events. These are a continuation of that which mankind has witnessed throughout the times of the Gentiles or even the church age. However, there appears to be an anticipatory intensification of them here.

3) Then in the middle of the week after Satan is cast from Heaven to the earth (Rev 12:7-12), Michael stands aside (Dan 12:1; 2Thes 2:3-10) and Satan gives power to the Beast (Rev 13:4-5; 2Thes 2:9-10), who reveals himself by his presence in the rebuilt temple (Dan 9:27; Matt 24:15; 2Thes 2:3-4). When he does this the temple is defiled and the daily sacrifice and oblation are stopped (Dan 9:27). It is at this time that Jesus says great tribulation begins (Matt 24:21).

4) Beginning in the middle of the week and lasting for an undisclosed period of time the elect (the church) will face unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) for the name of Christ (Matt 24:9) at the hands of the Beast, False Prophet, and those that follow them (Matt 24:21; Dan 12:1; Rev 12:17). The persecution will be so severe that it will threaten to eliminate every last believer from the earth, and because of this, God cuts it short (Matt 24:22). This time will also be one of extreme deception (Matt 24:11). So much so, that Jesus said that if it were possible even the truly elect would be deceived (Matt 24:24). He also said that at this time many would be offended (Matt 24:10), that is leave the faith, and betray and hate one another. Paul called this departure from the faith the "apostasia" or a falling away (2Thes 2:3).

5) Also beginning in the middle of the week will be a time of unprecedented persecution of Israel by the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers, called Jacob's trouble (Jer 30:7). This is the wrath of the dragon (Satan) focused upon the woman (Rev 12:12-17). Two thirds of Israel shall be killed and the other third brought through the fire and refined (Zech 13:8-9). It will continue the 42 months that the Beast continues (Rev 13:5; Dan 7:25). A remnant of Israel will be protected, hid and fed in the wilderness during this time (Rev 12:13-15). Also there will be 144,000; 12,000 from each of the tribes with the exception of Dan that will be sealed for protection while they remain upon the earth through the period of God's wrath that comes later in the week, but within the forty two months (Rev 7:1-8).

6) The great tribulation will be cut short by Christ's return (Matt 24:29-30). It will be portended by the cosmic sign that Joel and Peter spoke of (Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20; Matt 24:29; Luke 21:25-27; Rev 6:12-17). It is at that time that the church finds rest from persecution (2Thes 1:6-10).

7) The whole world will see Christ when He arrives in the clouds with His holy angels (Rev 1:7; Rev 24:27; 2Thes 1:7; Matt 24:30).

8) At that time the trump of God will sound and the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptible and those elect who survived shall be changed (Dan 12:1-2; 1Cor 15:51-52).

9) Then we all (the elect) shall be gathered (caught up) to Jesus in the clouds by the angels (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:15-17; 2Thes 2:1).

10) Christ will then escort us to the Father's house to stand before the throne (John 14:3; Rev 7:9-17).

11) The 144,000 thousand shall be sealed for protection from the trumpet and vial judgements while remaining upon the earth (Rev 7:1-8).

12) The wrath of God begins to be poured out later upon the same day as his arrival (Luke 17:26-30; 2Thes 1:6-10), in the form of the trumpet and later the vial judgements and the destruction of the Beast, False Prophet, and the armies that follow them at Armageddon (Rev 8, 9, 16-19).

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Quasar93]

1 hour ago, ScottA said:

That does not reconcile with:

1 Corinthians 15:23

But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

 

1 Thess.4:16 will be the very next prophetic event to ake lace,  1 Cor.15:23, in referebce to resurrections, has nothing to do with it.

 

Quasar93

[Quasar93]

9 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Quasar....

It is in brotherly love that I dialogue with you. Two brothers in Christ who share scriptures to rightly divide the truth. Iron sharpens Iron.

I'm a researcher. And I spend most of my time researching the scriptures to see if what is being taught as truth is the truth. 

Here is a quote from the rest of the article: (Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.)

It is well established that E. Schuyler English is thought to be the first
pretribulationist to propose that “the departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was a physical departure and thus a reference to the pre-trib rapture. However, history records that at least a couple of men thought of this idea before English’s series of article in 1950.11 J. S.
Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.12 He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star.13 Another
pre-English proponent of “the departure” as the rapture was John R. Rice in a book in 1945.14

 

From the Douay-Rheims Bible:

The day of the Lord is not to come till the man of sin be revealed. The apostle's traditions are to be observed. [1] And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: [2] That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Others: John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), crazed cult leader, founder of the Exclusive Brethren and "god" of  the Pre-Trib Rapture Center (PTRC) and the PWMI, is falsely credited with"discovering" the pre-tribulation rapture by Ice and his associates. Yet even the "mighty" Darby translated 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as the apostasy..   Darby Bible Translation: "Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;" {12}   Darby: "With nominal Christians this has necessarily the character of apostacy, or at least it is connected with this apostacy, and is consequent upon it; as Verse 3 (Th2 2:3) teaches us, the apostacy takes place, and then the man of sin is revealed." {13}   Erasmus: "signifies that great and before-predicted apostasy." {14}   John Wesley:  2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first.{15}   More recently, Christian Apologist and pretribulationist Dave Hunt (1926-2013), interpreted apostasia as the apostasy: "Paul says that the apostasy precedes the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess 2:3)." {16}       This article is about the early Church Writers..... Please take time to read it.    "2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy"."   How did the Early Church Writers view 2 Thess 2?  With one voice, both those who spoke Greek natively and those who learned it as a Scriptural language, seem to agree that "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 refers to an apostacy, not a rapture.  Several of these men spoke Greek natively and all studied it and knew it as an academic language. Translations How the Scriptures appear in various languages can sometimes remove ambiguity if one language has ambiguity another does not.  Regardless of what new meanings theologians with an agenda try to read into the Greek "apostacia", it was translated in early Church times as "abscessio" (dispute, rebel, etc) in the Old Latin and appears in Aramaic as "מרודותא" = rebellion.  The modern Vulgate translates "Apostacia" as "discessio", which means division or rebellion.  Both the Old and Modern Latin fit the theme of rebellion, not rapture. All of these confirm that the Greek "apostacia" means "apostacy", and not a rapture. 2 Thess 2:3 uses the Latin / Greek / Aramaic words for "Rebellion" / apostacy = "abscessio" / "apostacia" / "מרודותא", and not the words for rapture, which is "raptum" / "arpages" / "chatufa".  So no early manuscript of 2 Thess 2:3 interprets "apostacia" to mean "rapture", as some WANT it to mean. Irenaeus (130-200) Irenaeus quoted the Old Latin translation of "abscessio" in Against Heresies V.25.  In Against Heresies V.25.5, he says this after quoting 2 Thess 2 and commenting on it, "From all these passages are revealed to us, not merely the particulars of the apostasy (apostaciae), and [the doings] of him who concentrates in himself every satanic error..." (Against Heresies V.25.5) What is interesting here is that Latin has a direct transliteration of "αποστασία" into Latin, which is "apostaciae".  This of course indicates that he was aware of the original Greek wording of 2 Thess 2:3, and uses it in Latin, analyzing it as "apostacy" and not with some other meaning.  Irenaeus was born in Smyrna / Izmir of modern day Turkey, and thus would have grown up speaking Greek.  He was bishop to Lyons, France (Southwest France about 90 miles from Geneva, Switzerland) where he would have had to have learned Provencial French and Latin to function as a cleric in that society.  Here, Irenaeus is saying something I've said before, that the CONTEXT of 2 Thess 2 fits interpretting "apostacia" as "apostacy" because the entire chapter is talking about apostacy.  It is talking about the apostacy the son of perdition will lead.  So Irenaeus uses the Latin "apostaciae" in V.25.5 and paraphrases it as "abscessio" in V.25.1, which has a variant of rebellion, not rapture. In fact, in the chapter preceeding this section, before he quotes 2 Thess 2, he is discussing the concept of apostacy before he quotes this passage.  So both the context that sets up the quote and his commentary on it support that he understood this passage to refer to an "apostacy", not a rapture.  So the flow of the context of what he says following like this....   Against Heresies V.24 A general discussion of apostacy, not related to end times Against Heresies V.25-early Quotes 2 Thess 2:3 and related text and analyzes it Against Heresies V.25-late Discusses the apostacies the lawless one will cause. So Irenaeus definitely shed a lot of light on how "αποστασία" was interpretted as meaning apostacy, not rapture.  In Chapter 28, titled "...the future apostacy in the time of the AntiChrist...", he goes into even mroe detail about the apostacy of the end times. Justin Martyr (150-160 AD) Like Irenaeus, Justin also sees "apostacy" in the meaning of 2 Thess 2:3 and sees the word indicating what the "Lawless one" will cause, since he calls him the "Man of Apostacy" in Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter CX.  He qualifies what  apostacy is by saying he would, "speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians" (ibid). He also says, " 'Sata' in the Jewish and Syrian tongue means apostate" (Dialogue, Chapter CIII) and later calls Satan "an apostate from the will of God" (Dialogue, Chapter CXXV). Tertullian (160-225 AD) Tertullian quotes 2 Thess 2:3 with the same Latin wording as Irenaeus, but makes little comment on it. Hippolytus (170-236) Hippolytus seems to connect the abomination of desolation with 2 Thess 2:3, suggesting that he sees the abomination of desolation as the act of apostacy referred to in 2 Thess 2:3 when it refers to "apostacy".  This is a bit different from Irenaeus' view, who sees "apostacy" as referring to MANY things that will occur, both a rebellion against the faith by people but also the wide range of rebellions that the False Messiah will lead the populace into.   Ephraim the Syrian (306-373) Ephraim quotes 2 Thess 2:3 and says this... "The Apostle has penned a warning for us in his epistle to the Thessalonians: ‘Let no word or no letter trouble you that is not from us. For the rebellion comes first, also the Man of Sin And he will exalt himself over God, Making himself to be God.’ And when the Accursed One comes and displays his mighty works and wonders, the nations will gather together and come as (if) they were going to see God....every person will renounce their deity;" (Sermon by Ephraim on the End of the World ) So he clearly interprets "apostacy" here as rebellion and sees that "apostacy" as meaning, "every person will renounce their deity."  Muslims will renounce Allah in favor of the False Messiah as their god.  Buddhists will renounce Buddah in favor of the FM.  Nominal Christians will renounce the Real Messiah for the False one.  That is the picture of "apostacy" that Ephraim paints for his reader.  They will accept the "man of sin" as "god". Cyril (315-387) Cyril attempts to reconstruct the chain of events that will occur in sequential order during the end times, but omits any mention of a rapture. Like Hippolytus, he too connects the abomination of desolation with 2 Thess 2:3 seeing it as the apparent act of apostacy cited in 2 Thess 2:3.  He also quotes heavily on the word "Apostacy" itself, saying this, "Thus wrote Paul, and now is the falling away.  For men have fallen away from the right faith; and some preach the identity of the Son with the Father, and others dare to say that Christ was brought into being out of nothing.  And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  For men have fallen away from the truth, and have itching ears." (Cyril Lecture XV)  His comments give plenty of examples of how he interpreted the word "apostacia", and he sees it as something that has already begun, citing heretical teachings of his day. Augustine (354-430 AD) Augustine has this to say, "No one can doubt that he wrote this of Antichrist and of the day of judgment, which he here calls the day of the Lord, nor that he declared that this day should not come unless he first came who is called the apostate —apostate, to wit, from the Lord God" (City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19) So here Augustine seems to suggest a similar interpretation to what Irenaeus and Justin proposed.   John Chrysostrom (349-407) John Chrysostrom was a Greek speaker who wrote in Greek.  He quotes 2 Thess 2:3 and then says this.... "...except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed...Here he discourses concerning the Antichrist, and reveals great mysteries. What is “the falling away?”  [The Greek word translated “falling away” is that which we borrow as apostasy.—J.A.B.] He calls him Apostasy, as being about to destroy many, and make them fall away....he will not introduce idolatry, but will be a kind of opponent to God; he will abolish all the gods, and will order men to worship him instead of God" (Homily on 2 Thess)   The COLLECTIVE Other early writers quote 2 Thess 2, but some don't analyze it is a way to indicate how they interpreted "apostacia."  Some analyze other aspects of the text.  For example, many early writers commented on who the "Restrainer" was. But of those that did comment in such a way as to indicate HOW they interpreted the word "apostacia", they all interpret it to mean APOSTACY and give enough examples of that.  They discuss different aspects of what "apostacy" could mean, indicating they are getting at least part of their analysis out of the meaning of the word, rather than from tradition.  For example, Iranaeus, Justin, Augustine and Chrysostrum see the "apostacy" as the rebellion of the False Messiah himself. Hippolytus and Cyril both see the abomination of desolation included in the meaning of "apostacia". Ephraim sees "every person will renounce their deity" in the meaning of "apostacia" Cyril sees heretical ideas of his time in the meaning of "apostacia" So a variety of aspects of "apostacy" are included in how the early Church interpreted the word "apostacia" / apostacy in 2 Thess 2:3.  But all of them see some form of rebellion in the meaning of the word and none see this as a rapture.  Note that all 3 Latin writers see "apostacy" in the rebellious acts of the Man of Apostacy, and 2 Greek writers see the abomination of desolation in "apostacia".  Iraenaeus grew up speaking Greek, so he counts in both categories linguistically, but more with the Latin West culturally. That's it for now brother. Take care.

 

First of all, 2 Thes.2:1 is the theme o the passage consisting of verses 1 through 8,.  :t states: "About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him..."  Is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17: "After that we will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air."  Clear reference by Paul, he was teaching about a rapture of the Church,  Not about the Church going into apostasy, or falling away in that passage at all.  He then reinforced the Greek word, "apostasia," in which one of its meanings is "departure," harmoniously with verse 7, where he wrote the following: " The restrainer will continue to restrain, until he is "taken out of the way."  Meaning the very same thing as "departure," in verse 3.

In addition to that, Jerome in his translation of the Greek Septuagint to the Latin Vulgate, he used the Latin word, "discessio," which also means, "departure," or "to depart."  Which was the original and proper historical interpretation for 16 centuries, including those of the first seven English trabslations of the Bible.  Until it was altered by KJV scribes in 1611 A.D.  All of which has been previously posted.

The teachings of Paul about apostasy and falling away are recorded in 2 Tim. 3, not in 2 Thess.2:1-8.

 

Quasar93

Edited April 26, 2018 by Quasar93

[Daniel 11:36]

Those who are coming on with the idea of no pre-tribulation action are among those who are desperately attempting to destroy this truth

This seems to be the trend as humanity moves closer to the day

This is exactly what is to be expected .... those who tell this story will increase in rank

And all of them will go into the coming tribulation period

Do not let them change your mind .... the Lord will come unexpectedly and He will snatch believers away