The chronological order of end time events

[ScottA]

4 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

 

The above is as clear as mud.  If you expect a response from me on it, kindly explain what you are talking about and what you claim I am in error about!

 

 

Quasar93

The matter is one: The return of Christ and the rapture are one event - but come to "each in his own order."

In other words:

1 Corinthians 15:22

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive."

...Therefore, just as all men did not die in one event, but "each in his own order", "so [also] in Christ all shall be made alive."

So...it is true that all are counted dead or alive as one as in one event, but also each in his own order during the times of the world. Thus the "chronology" is only correct if spoken in context, whether timeless as one and with God, or each in his own order as in the world. Meaning...that if you are going to speak in terms of the chronology of events in the world, in order to be correct, the events must be spoken of as "each in his own order" and not as one event. 

On the other hand, if we are to speak in terms of the greater timeless truth of God (and not that of the world), we must consider all things as we have been told is the greater truth: that these things which we experience day to day as "each in his own order" were [actually] "before the foundation of the world." Only in this way do we "rightly divide the word of truth"...for we know what we experience in the world, but we also know that only God is true. So, as "all truth" comes to men, "the renewing of our mind" is that we come to know all things in Gods [timeless] terms, as increasing, but decreasing in terms according to what we experience in the world. Therefore, if you wish to clarify a word from God...the whole idea of a chronological order of events is akin to an evil generation seeking a sign, and should not even be considered serving God, but rather as serving the world. So, if you wish to serve God, explain worldly things as "each in his own order." But if you wish to explain things according to God, explain them then as one event - not during the history of the world, but "before the foundation of the world." For this is how the Lord spoke. 

And if you cannot do this, or do not understand - do not speak, but listen.

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Exactly, it will be Alinky tactics on steroids times (x) a 1000. Except I do not think the Nations vs. nations and Kingdoms vs. kingdoms as per Matthew 24 is end times, I think that is Church Age. I think he acts in a unilateral manner, and thus gets the Nations to trust him by SOLVING PROBLEMS these leaders haven't been able to solve in years, thus VIA PEACE he destroys MAN (Daniel 8:25). Then he plunges the world into chaos when he stats conquering, but heading up to that point in time, he will deceive the masses via being PEACEFUL, and will have WISE SOLUTIONS. 

Once he starts Conquering, he will not care what anyone knows about him per se. He will restore order by BRUTE FORCE. 

According to Daniel 7, the man of sin gains his stature by ripping three of the horns out by their roots.   During that time of conflict, he annihilates many through the "defensive" use of supernatural powers.  He deceives the world because of the signs and wonders he performs and restores order.  He then calls on the deceived to build the image and thus begins his 42 month war against the saints using the mark and the image.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

For starters, Jesus being on a Cloud signifies, in my opinion, the Pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.

At least you can see the rapture in Revelation.  That's more than most.  Chronology, etc. is another matter.

[Revelation Man]

5 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

According to Daniel 7, the man of sin gains his stature by ripping three of the horns out by their roots.   During that time of conflict, he annihilates many through the "defensive" use of supernatural powers.  He deceives the world because of the signs and wonders he performs and restores order.  He then calls on the deceived to build the image and thus begins his 42 month war against the saints using the mark and the image.

The False Prophet places the Abomination of Desolation at the 1290, 30 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem He defeats 3 of the 10 Kings, but that happens after the First Seal is opened, so it happens AFTER THE PEACE. 

[JoeCanada]

14 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

First of all, 2 Thes.2:1 is the theme o the passage consisting of verses 1 through 8,.  :t states: "About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him..."  Is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17: "After that we will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air."  Clear reference by Paul, he was teaching about a rapture of the Church,  Not about the Church going into apostasy, or falling away in that passage at all.  He then reinforced the Greek word, "apostasia," in which one of its meanings is "departure," harmoniously with verse 7, where he wrote the following: " The restrainer will continue to restrain, until he is "taken out of the way."  Meaning the very same thing as "departure," in verse 3.

In addition to that, Jerome in his translation of the Greek Septuagint to the Latin Vulgate, he used the Latin word, "discessio," which also means, "departure," or "to depart."  Which was the original and proper historical interpretation for 16 centuries, including those of the first seven English trabslations of the Bible.  Until it was altered by KJV scribes in 1611 A.D.  All of which has been previously posted.

The teachings of Paul about apostasy and falling away are recorded in 2 Tim. 3, not in 2 Thess.2:1-8.

 

Quasar93

Hi Quasar....

Looks like we are at loggerheads regarding the rapture. The early church fathers/writers seem to agree with the scriptures that 'apsotasia' is a 'falling away'.....not a rapture. Irenaeus ,Justyn Martyr, Ephraim, Cyril, Augustine, Tertullian, Hyppolitus, John Crysostrom, among others.

The old and modern Latin also translate it as rebellion:

 Regardless of what new meanings theologians with an agenda try to read into the Greek "apostacia", it was translated in early Church times as "abscessio" (dispute, rebel, etc) in the Old Latin and appears in Aramaic as "מרודותא" = rebellion.  The modern Vulgate translates "Apostacia" as "discessio", which means division or rebellion.  Both the Old and Modern Latin fit the theme of rebellion, not rapture. All of these confirm that the Greek "apostacia" means "apostacy", and not a rapture.

2 Thess 2:3 uses the Latin / Greek / Aramaic words for "Rebellion" / apostacy = "abscessio" / "apostacia" / "מרודותא", and not the words for rapture, which is "raptum" / "arpages" / "chatufa".  So no early manuscript of 2 Thess 2:3 interprets "apostacia" to mean "rapture", as some WANT it to mean.

With all respect brother, there is too much evidence in scripture that says we will face the anichrist and his persecutions. 

"......Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution...."

[Revelation Man]

3 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

At least you can see the rapture in Revelation.  That's more than most.  Chronology, etc. is another matter.

Most people do not get the order correct. I personally think only ONE MISTAKE was made. I think Rev. ch. 16 should be Rev. ch. 10, or Rev. 15 and 16 should be Rev. ch. 10. Then you would have all the Seals, Trumpets and Vials in perfect order, and all of the Parenthetical Citations would be between the JUDGMENTS and the Judgment Seat/New Jerusalem chapters of 20-21. John just gave/left his work to someone, it seems to me it got jumbled together and Rev. 16 is out of place. 

Let me demonstrate (since this is about Chronological order) my point as per my Parenthetical Citation Theory. Lets take chapter 11 ad go over it. I used to think this was a part of the Chronological order, but then it hit me, NO, This chapter is all about the Two-witnesses, a complete SET-A-SIDE so to speak.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

{{What does Measure the Temple and Alter of God even mean ? But MEASURE NOT the court outside of the Temple !! I think this is God  telling the Two-witnesses to PREACH to Israel, but not unto the Gentiles per se. The Church is already in Heaven. After all Malachi 4:5-6 says God will send Elijah to turn Israel back unto God  BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord. The beast will Conquer/Rule Jerusalem for 42 Months, the Two-witnesses will preach/witness for 42 months, but their 1260 day time periods ARE NOT SYNCHRONIZED, the Two-witnesses die at the end of the 2nd Woe, the Beast dies at the 7th Vial, or end of the 3rd Woe. Thus the Two-witnesses must show up BEFORE the Day of the Lord (Seals are opened) more on that later.}}

 

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

{{{ The Two-witnesses have leeway/authority by God to pray down plagues like turning water to blood (Trumpet #2) and other plagues, AS OFTEN as the will. When they have finished [their 1260 days] the Beast/Demon that ascends out of the bottomless pit (Apollyon/Abaddon)  shall kill the Two-witnesses and their bodies will lay in the streets of Jerusalem for like 3.5 days. Thus there 1260 days of Witnessing ends here, so the die BEFORE the Besst dies, thus in order to Witness for 1260 days, they must needs show up before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem thus becoming THE BEAST for 42 Months ! }}}

 

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

{{{ The people of earth hate these two men so vehemently they will not allow them to even be buried. The world REJOICES over their deaths because these TWO MEN TORMENTED THEM !! Meaning of course the Two-witnesses prayed down the Seal, Trumpet and COMING Vial Judgments !! (Even after Death, their prayers are Answered) After 3.5 days life enters them again, fear falls upon mankind, and then God calls them up unto Heaven. }}}

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

{{{ We see the Two-witnesses ascend to Heaven, then a Great Earthquake, and then it says the SECOND WOE IS PAST; and BEHOLD, the Third Woe comes QUICKLY !! Then the SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED !! Does anyone get this? The 2nd Woe ended just after the Two-witnesses die, then the SEVENTH TRUMPET SOUNDED which is the THIRD WOE !! We are not told the detailed happenings of EACH VIAL here, but when the Seventh Trumpet Sounds, that means the 3rd Woe just happened and Jesus Christ wrested the Birthright away from Satan, he now Reigns on earth !! Even though the Seven Vials are yet to come via Rev. 16 ( even though I think Rev. 16 should actually be Rev. ch. 10....SEE MY POINT? ). Thus Rev. ch. 11 has nothing to do with the Chronological order of Revelation, its about the 1260 Days they Witness and about the 3rd Woe that happens AFTER they die, so this ha to have been their last prayer answered by God. So they MUST show up before the First Seal is broken at the 1335, before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem at the 1260, thus becoming THE BEAST for his 1260 day period. So this chapter runs for 1335 Days. The First Seal is opened 1260 days Before the Second Coming. }}}

 

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

{{{ Then we flash up to Heaven where the Elders of the Church are shown. They are saying that its time for God to reign once again on earth, and thy servant and prophets will be rewarded. Those that destroy the earth will be Judged [in 1000 years of course]. Amen. }}}

 

So what we have here is the Two-witnesses total ministry on earth, a SET-A-SIDE, not a part of the Chronological order of the book of Revelation. The Two-witnesses show up BEFORE the Day of the Lord (First Seal) says Malachi 4:5-6. Thus I think the BLESSING being spoken of in Daniel ch. 12 at the 1335 is the Two-witnesses, they turn Israel back unto God, then at the 1290 we are told that is the Abomination of Desolation, we know via Rev. 13 that the False Prophet sets this up, its a MARKER, Jesus told the Jews to FLEE JUDEA when they see this, they have 30 Days before to get out of Jerusalem, they of course would pay NO ATTENTION to this if they had not already REPENTED, because most Jews do not listen to Jesus !! Then at the 1260 the holy peoples POWER IS SCATTERED, meaning the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem. My take is the False Prophet (a Jewish High Priest IMHO) does the same thing Jason did when Antiochus Epiphanes ruled, he betrays his own people, he is more than likely a Jew that is seething that Israel turned unto Jesus Christ and thus he decides to go all in with the Anti-Christ who has yet to Conquer Jerusalem, but when the First Seal is opened he will blitzkrieg Jerusalem. So the point is, this is a chapter about the Two-witnesses 1260 days witnessing on earth, and about the whole 1335 days from he time they show up until the Second Coming. 

This is what confuses people, they say, well Jesus takes over in chapter 11, but that is not the case, Jesus takes control of the earth in chapter 16, which I think should follow chapter 9. But this chapter is just about the TWO-WITNESSES !!  Its a Parenthetical Citation. 

 

[Last Daze]

29 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Most people do not get the order correct. I personally think only ONE MISTAKE was made. I think Rev. ch. 16 should be Rev. ch. 10, or Rev. 15 and 16 should be Rev. ch. 10.

Have you informed the book's author?

[Revelation Man]

2 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Have you informed the book's author?

The Authors placed no Chapters and Verses, the TRANSLATORS DID !!

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Authors placed no Chapters and Verses, the TRANSLATORS DID !!

Only one author.

[Steve Conley]

17 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Great Tribulation is not cut short, that is erroneous thinking, Jesus is saying Gods PRE PLANNED 7 Years stops mankind from destroying themselves, why would anyone think God has to REBOOT His plans?  God PLANNED it to be 7 Years, that is when he CUT IT SHORT via a plan. The Time of the Gentiles COMES FULL, there is no difference. 

My response:

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is a period of unprecedented persecution of the elect and unbelieving Israel. The elect are those who know Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, both Jew and Gentile. National Israel is still in unbelief during this time. A portion of Israel is divinely protected in the wilderness, but most of the Israelis will be killed.

So that every last believer (elect) is not martyred Jesus comes to gather His own to Him before the Beast's 42 months are complete. When He comes only the elect are taken. That ends the great tribulation upon the elect. At that point the elect (church) is at wrest and Christ begins to pour out His wrath upon the Beast worshipers. National Israel remains upon the earth, however, the blindness is at that time removed and 144,000, 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes with the exception of Dan are sealed for protection from the wrath poured out upon the earth dwellers.

If you would simply read the text you could escape the false system that you are caught up in.

I think you guys do not believe in a pre trib rapture so you have to fudge it around, it don't work like that brother. The Fullness of the Gentile comes in, then after the Temple is REBUILT the Beast Conquers Jerusalem and the Gentile Beast this time rules Jerusalem for 42 Months. 

My response:

You are the one fudging around it. You know your system well, but not your Bible. You approach each text through the lens of your system. You let your system stand in judgement over the Holy Scriptures, when it should be the other way around. The reason I no longer believe in a pre-trib rapture, after teaching it for thirty years, is that there is not a single verse that says there is one. However, there are verses that speak of a gathering to Christ or catching up by the angels at His one and only second coming (parousia) following the great tribulation at some point in the second half of the week.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The fullness of the gentiles cannot be come in until after the great tribulation.

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations (ethnos = Gentiles), and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
...
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Notice that these are primarily saved Gentiles who came out of great tribulation. So, the fullness of the gentiles cannot be come in until after that period.

The Church is Raptured brother, that all I have to say there. 

My response:

Yes the church is raptured but not until Christ's parousia which follows the great tribulation. His arrival, at His parousia, comes before He begins to pour out His wrath upon the Beast worshiping earth dwellers.

This is the Church age, not Jacobs Troubles.

My response:

Sorry, wrong again. You can make assertions, but you cannot support them like I did in the post you are responding to.

Satan gives power via EVERY Kingdom, remember what he told Jesus in Like 4 ? If you will just bow down and worship me all this will be yours, for it is GIVEN ME, and I do what I want to with it.  The Anti-Christ is only REVEALED, meaning the veil is lifted, people see by his action he is a tyrant. The Temple can't be defiled if its already defiled, meaning the OBLATION that is taken away is Israel/Jews serving Jesus in the Temple they REPENT at the 1335, 75 days before the Beast Conquers Israel in Jerusalem at the 1260, and 45 days before the AoD happens at the 1290, so Israel is worshiping Jesus/God in the Temple, Jesus is their Sacrifice, of course like hes ours. (Malachi 4:5-6 is the 1335)

So there are at least two inconsistencies that I see here. You have Israel believing while they are still in blindness because Gentiles are still being added to Christ during the great tribulation. Also you unwittingly exposed one of you false assumptions, that the wrath of God begins at the opening of the first seal in the beginning of the week. When the verse you referred to as being the fulfillment of the 1335 days (which you think falls in the middle of the week) mentions that Elijah must come before the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is when God's wrath is poured out.

Mal 4:4  Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Mal 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The ELECT is Israel, the Church is in Heaven, so we will face nothing brother.  Mathew 24:9 is about Jesus' disciples. The Beast and False Prophet are in Matthew 24:24, not in verses 5 or 11. Verse 5 is the 70 AD event, verse 11 is THE 2000 YEAR Church Age. These three (Matt 24:21; Dan 12:1; Rev 12:17) are the Time of greatest ever troubles. God cuts nothing short save the ORIGINAL 7 Year plan. 

My response:

Revelation Man, every elect Jew today is a part of the Body of Christ. As is every Gentile believer. The church is the elect, the church is the chosen. The church is made up of all true believers in Jesus Christ.

In the New Testament:

There are elect angels

(1Ti 5:21)  I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Jesus is said to be elect or chosen

(Luk 23:35)  And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

(1Pe 2:4)  To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

(1Pe 2:6)  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

John wrote to the elect lady and spoke of an elect sister

(2Jn 1:1)  The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

(2Jn 1:13)  The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

The apostles were chosen

(Joh 15:16)  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The church is the elect in the following passages

(These elect in Matt 24 and Mark 13 must be the church because Jesus implies that it is not possible for the very elect to be deceived (Matt 24:24) and Israel remains blind (deceivable) in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and there are still Gentiles (Rev 7:9) being added to Christ in the great tribulation.)

(Mat 24:22)  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

(Mat 24:24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

(Mat 24:31)  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(Mar 13:20)  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

(Mar 13:22)  For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

(Mar 13:27)  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

(Luk 18:7)  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

(Rom 8:33)  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

(Rom 11:5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (These are Jewish believers who are part of the church)

(Rom 11:7)  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

(Col 3:12)  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

(1Th 1:4)  Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

(2Ti 2:10)  Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

(Tit 1:1)  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

(1Pe 1:2)  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(Mat 20:16)  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

(Mat 22:14)  For many are called, but few are chosen.

(Rom 16:13)  Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

(1Pe 2:9)  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

(2Pe 1:10)  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The chosen here would also include restored Israel

(Rev 17:14)  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Concerning your statement: "These three (Matt 24:21; Dan 12:1; Rev 12:17) are the Time of greatest ever troubles." That is true for the church and Israel, it will be the most severe persecution ever experienced. It will make the Holocaust look like a walk in the park. However, the Beast worshipers will be having a party. They will be buying and selling, planting and building, eating and drinking, and marrying and giving in marriage while we are being exterminated from the earth (Luke 17:26-30). They will be at ease and thinking that everything is peace and safety for them, right up until the cosmic sign appears, the one that portends Christ's arrival. It is at that point that they know the jig is up and they begin to hide from the Lord who is arriving in the clouds of heaven (Rev 6:12-17). The Lord at that time will rapture the surviving believers and later the same day begin to pour out His wrath upon the Beast worshipers who persecuted us. Paul said:

1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The same day (Luke 17:26-30) that we are rescued is the day of recompense upon our persecutors. It is at that time that the unparalleled day of the Lord takes place. That is the greatest tribulation period the earth will ever see. It is the time of God's fierce wrath poured out without mixture, in its full strength. There is a difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan.

Before God's wrath fell in Noah's day He provided Noah and his family a place of safety. Before God's wrath fell upon Sodom and Gomorrah God removed Lot and his daughters. When intense persecution fell upon the church at the burning of Rome by Nero, God didn't rapture any Christians first. When a million Armenian Christians were martyred last century, there was no rapture first. God removes His own before He pours out his wrath. There is no promise that He will keep us from persecution. The great tribulation is the persecution of the church and Israel. The day of the Lord is the wrath of God upon the Beast worshipers. They are separated by the gathering of the church at the parousia of Christ.

Jesus stated it IS NOT Possible that the elect can be deceived because he says BEHOLD, I have told you before hand [where I will be coming from]. Then he tells then he will be coming from the EASTER SKIES, not via a secret chamber and not via a Desert.  Jesus will be where the CARCASS (Armageddon Carnage) is at and so will the Eagles (CHURCH) or the FOWLS in Rev. ch. 19 at the Marriage Supper Feast of the Kings, Men, Horses whom they CONSUME, Metaphorically speaking of course. Matt. 24:10 is about the Church Age and Jesus own Disciples. Paul was speaking of the RAPTURE in 2 Thess. 2:1-5. 

My response:

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (rapture),
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the day of Christ, which involves His coming (parousia) and our gathering unto Him) shall not come, except there come a falling away (a departure from the faith) first, and that man of sin (Beast) be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

 

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

Edited April 27, 2018 by Steve Conley