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Quasar93

The chronological order of end time events

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9 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Quasar....

Looks like we are at loggerheads regarding the rapture. The early church fathers/writers seem to agree with the scriptures that 'apsotasia' is a 'falling away'.....not a rapture. Irenaeus ,Justyn Martyr, Ephraim, Cyril, Augustine, Tertullian, Hyppolitus, John Crysostrom, among others.

The old and modern Latin also translate it as rebellion:

 Regardless of what new meanings theologians with an agenda try to read into the Greek "apostacia", it was translated in early Church times as "abscessio" (dispute, rebel, etc) in the Old Latin and appears in Aramaic as "מרודותא" = rebellion.  The modern Vulgate translates "Apostacia" as "discessio", which means division or rebellion.  Both the Old and Modern Latin fit the theme of rebellion, not rapture. All of these confirm that the Greek "apostacia" means "apostacy", and not a rapture.

2 Thess 2:3 uses the Latin / Greek / Aramaic words for "Rebellion" / apostacy = "abscessio" / "apostacia" / "מרודותא", and not the words for rapture, which is "raptum" / "arpages" / "chatufa".  So no early manuscript of 2 Thess 2:3 interprets "apostacia" to mean "rapture", as some WANT it to mean.

With all respect brother, there is too much evidence in scripture that says we will face the anichrist and his persecutions. 

"......Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution...."

 

You're a little confused about who it is that teaches the "new meanings theologians try to put into the meaning of apostasia."  I am a qualified teacher of the Bible, prophecy and eschatology, from which I have made a study of specifically over the past 36 years, having had its beginnings in August of 1937.   And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology?

 The first post/OP of my thread, "The Biblical teaching of the Pre-trib Rapue of the Church," will provide you with the translation history of 2 thess.2:3.  Also, that Jerome translated it from the Greek Septuagint to the Latin Vulgate, with the Latin word, discessio, which also means departure, or to depart.  In addition to that, the first seven English translations of the Bible, translated 2 Thess.2:3 as a departure of the Church, before the tribulation begins.  There are different meanings for each of those two words, it depends upon the text they are used in to determin which one is used.  Paul was teaching about a rature of the Church, not a falling awau in the text he used apostasia in,  Yhe theme of the passafe, 2 Thess.2:1-8, is in the very first verse, which states, "about our gathering to the Lord Jesus Christ."  Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17: "After that we who are still alive will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air."  That you are trying to call a falling away, after the word departure had been used in the passage for 16 centuries, untill it was altered in 1611 by KJV scribes to apostasy.  Review the following

reek term 'apostasia' in 2 Thes.2:3 means 'departure' 

Here Mr. Wuest discusses 2Thes 2:3, specifically the meaning of "apostasia."  He asserts that it should be translated as 'departure' with reference to the rapture of the church. I have never come across this in any translation and I wonder if it is a correct exegesis of this verse?

"The words =93a falling away=94 are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi inits intransitive sense means =93 to stand,=94 the prefixed preposition means=93 off, away from,=94 and the compound verb, =93 to stand off from.=94 The=word does not mean =93 to fall.=94  The Greeks had a word for that, piptw.  Afisthmi, in=its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: =93 to make stand off, cause=to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one=94; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means =93to fall away, become faithless.=94 The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version =93 to depart,=94 in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27;=Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1;2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated =93 fall away,=94 in Acts 5:37, =93 drew away,=94 and in Acts 5:38, =93 refrain.=94 Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word =93 departure =94.  The reader will observe that the predominant=translation of the verbal form is =93 to depart,=94 also, that where it is translated =93 fall away,=94 the context adds the idea of =93 falling away =94 to the verb, which =action is still a departure.

E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply in debted for calling his attention to the word =93 departure=94 as the correct rendering=ofapostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean =93a departure=94 in this context: Tyndale(1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza(1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more inthe New Testament and is translated =93 to forsake=94 (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, =93 divorcement,=94 which=word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.

The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times bothin classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means =93a rebel.=94.  But these are acquired meanings of the word=gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word =93 apostasy=94 means a defection from the truth is entirely beside=the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word meant to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words =93 some shall depart from the faith==94 and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase =93 from the faith=94 indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.

With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice.  A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. =93.  The basal function=of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark =91 the object as definitely conceived,=92 for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article.=94.  This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one,one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is =93 todenote previous reference.=94.  Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context.=94 Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words =93 our gathering together unto=him,=94 not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered =93 and=94 can also be translated =93 even,=94 and the translation reads, =93 the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him.=94.

The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to =93 the gathering together unto him =94 as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:2, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pre-tribulation rapture rather than a pre-seventieth week rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is not explaining the particular place of the rapture in the prophetic program of God."


By Kenneth S. Wuest


From:  http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/96-12/0863.html


Quasar93

 

 

Edited by Quasar93

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10 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Quasar....

Looks like we are at loggerheads regarding the rapture. The early church fathers/writers seem to agree with the scriptures that 'apsotasia' is a 'falling away'.....not a rapture. Irenaeus ,Justyn Martyr, Ephraim, Cyril, Augustine, Tertullian, Hyppolitus, John Crysostrom, among others.

The old and modern Latin also translate it as rebellion:

 Regardless of what new meanings theologians with an agenda try to read into the Greek "apostacia", it was translated in early Church times as "abscessio" (dispute, rebel, etc) in the Old Latin and appears in Aramaic as "מרודותא" = rebellion.  The modern Vulgate translates "Apostacia" as "discessio", which means division or rebellion.  Both the Old and Modern Latin fit the theme of rebellion, not rapture. All of these confirm that the Greek "apostacia" means "apostacy", and not a rapture.

2 Thess 2:3 uses the Latin / Greek / Aramaic words for "Rebellion" / apostacy = "abscessio" / "apostacia" / "מרודותא", and not the words for rapture, which is "raptum" / "arpages" / "chatufa".  So no early manuscript of 2 Thess 2:3 interprets "apostacia" to mean "rapture", as some WANT it to mean.

With all respect brother, there is too much evidence in scripture that says we will face the anichrist and his persecutions. 

"......Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution...."

 

You're a little confused about who it is that teaches the "new meanings theologians try to put into the meaning of apostasia."  I am a qualified teacher of the Bible, prophecy and eschatology, from which I have made a study of specifically over the past 36 years, having had its beginnings in August of 1937.   And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology?

 The first post/OP of my thread, "The Biblical teaching of the Pre-trib Rapue of the Church," will provide you with the translation history of 2 thess.2:3.  Also, that Jerome translated it from the Greek Septuagint to the Latin Vulgate, with the Latin word, discessio, which also means departure, or to depart.  In addition to that, the first seven English translations of the Bible, translated 2 Thess.2:3 as a departure of the Church, before the tribulation begins.  There are different meanings for each of those two words, it depends upon the text they are used in to determin which one is used.  Paul was teaching about a rature of the Church, not a falling awau in the text he used apostasia in,  Yhe theme of the passafe, 2 Thess.2:1-8, is in the very first verse, which states, "about our gathering to the Lord Jesus Christ."  Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17: "After that we who are still alive will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air."  That you are trying to call a falling away, after the word departure had been used in the passage for 16 centuries, untill it was altered in 1611 by KJV scribes to apostasy.  Review the following

reek term 'apostasia' in 2 Thes.2:3 means 'departure' 

Here Mr. Wuest discusses 2Thes 2:3, specifically the meaning of "apostasia."  He asserts that it should be translated as 'departure' with reference to the rapture of the church. I have never come across this in any translation and I wonder if it is a correct exegesis of this verse?

"The words =93a falling away=94 are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi inits intransitive sense means =93 to stand,=94 the prefixed preposition means=93 off, away from,=94 and the compound verb, =93 to stand off from.=94 The=word does not mean =93 to fall.=94  The Greeks had a word for that, piptw.  Afisthmi, in=its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: =93 to make stand off, cause=to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one=94; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means =93to fall away, become faithless.=94 The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version =93 to depart,=94 in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27;=Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1;2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated =93 fall away,=94 in Acts 5:37, =93 drew away,=94 and in Acts 5:38, =93 refrain.=94 Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word =93 departure =94.  The reader will observe that the predominant=translation of the verbal form is =93 to depart,=94 also, that where it is translated =93 fall away,=94 the context adds the idea of =93 falling away =94 to the verb, which =action is still a departure.

E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply in debted for calling his attention to the word =93 departure=94 as the correct rendering=ofapostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean =93a departure=94 in this context: Tyndale(1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza(1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more inthe New Testament and is translated =93 to forsake=94 (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, =93 divorcement,=94 which=word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.

The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times bothin classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means =93a rebel.=94.  But these are acquired meanings of the word=gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word =93 apostasy=94 means a defection from the truth is entirely beside=the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word meant to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words =93 some shall depart from the faith==94 and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase =93 from the faith=94 indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.

With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice.  A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. =93.  The basal function=of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark =91 the object as definitely conceived,=92 for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article.=94.  This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one,one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is =93 todenote previous reference.=94.  Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context.=94 Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words =93 our gathering together unto=him,=94 not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered =93 and=94 can also be translated =93 even,=94 and the translation reads, =93 the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him.=94.

The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to =93 the gathering together unto him =94 as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:2, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pre-tribulation rapture rather than a pre-seventieth week rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is not explaining the particular place of the rapture in the prophetic program of God."


By Kenneth S. Wuest


From:  http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/96-12/0863.html


Quasar93

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16 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

My response:

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is a period of unprecedented persecution of the elect and unbelieving Israel. The elect are those who know Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, both Jew and Gentile. National Israel is still in unbelief during this time. A portion of Israel is divinely protected in the wilderness, but most of the Israelis will be killed.

So that every last believer (elect) is not martyred Jesus comes to gather His own to Him before the Beast's 42 months are complete. When He comes only the elect are taken. That ends the great tribulation upon the elect. At that point the elect (church) is at wrest and Christ begins to pour out His wrath upon the Beast worshipers. National Israel remains upon the earth, however, the blindness is at that time removed and 144,000, 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes with the exception of Dan are sealed for protection from the wrath poured out upon the earth dwellers.

If you would simply read the text you could escape the false system that you are caught up in.

You know you can highlight a certain point then answer that portion like I do via a QUOTE BUTTON. 

Yes, Jesus will shorten the troubles of this world by the Second Coming !! Do you not understand that brother? Its always amazed my when people do not understand the 70th Week has to be 7 years. All of Gods Calculated designs depend on a 7 year period. We get the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK, but you say there will not really be a week, when in fact you are just misunderstanding Gods intentions here. The 1260 days Israel FLEES happens at the 1260 also or in the Middle of the week, now you are suggesting God is not going to really protect Israel in the Wilderness for 1260 days. You are suggesting the Beast who comes forth in the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK, will not really be a Beast over Jerusalem for 42 months. 

Meanwhile I suggest God understood His plans the FIRST TIME, He is going to send Jesus back after the 70th Week, after 7 Years to stop the Beast from destroying the whole world. Jesus coming back cuts the Beasts rule to the 42 Months. If Jesus did not come Back the Beast would keep on ruling until he destroyed all man-kind. The problem is YOU ASSUME God/Jesus is talking about cutting the SEVEN YEAR PERIOD short, I don't. I assume hes speaking about cutting the Beasts rule to the 42 Months that God originally decided on allowing him to rule instead of 10 years or 20 years !! 

16 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

My response:

You are the one fudging around it. You know your system well, but not your Bible. You approach each text through the lens of your system. You let your system stand in judgement over the Holy Scriptures, when it should be the other way around. The reason I no longer believe in a pre-trib rapture, after teaching it for thirty years, is that there is not a single verse that says there is one. However, there are verses that speak of a gathering to Christ or catching up by the angels at His one and only second coming (parousia) following the great tribulation at some point in the second half of the week.

I have been preaching 30 years brother. I know the bible front to back. Anyone that can read Rev. 19 and not see the Pre Trib Rapture I just have to SMH and say study harder brothers. 

16 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The fullness of the gentiles cannot be come in until after the great tribulation.

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations (ethnos = Gentiles), and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
...
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Notice that these are primarily saved Gentiles who came out of great tribulation. So, the fullness of the gentiles cannot be come in until after that period.

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.   { Where are THE ELECT Gathered from? HEAVEN, we return from HEAVEN !!! From one end of heaven to the other. }

The Fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the Rapture, the Gentiles we given the Mantle of taking the Gospel to the whole World. Israel REPENTS at the 1335 or 1335 days before Jesus returns, thus 75 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem. So that is BEFORE the Greatest Troubles even begin. See Malachi 4:5-6 my brother.

The GREAT TRIBULATION means they came out of the 2000 year CHURCH AGE. The Rapture of the Church has already happened before Rev. 7 of course, we see the Church in Rev. 5:9. The beheaded under the Alter  via the 5th Seal are SPECIFICALLY TOLD they must wait until their fellow brothers have BEEN KILLED ALSO, which means they must wait for the entire 42 months of the Beasts reign to end, so Rev. 7:9 has nothing to do with the Beheaded. We see in Rev. 20:4 that the BEHEADED are Judged and Reign with Christ ON EARTH for 1000 years.  

Because the GREATEST TROUBLES ever happen during a certain period of time people want to LIMIT Gods Vocabulary here. The Church/Disciples were told by Jesus that they would have TRIBULATION ALWAYS, John said in Rev. 1:9 that he was their brother IN TRIBULATION. All of the Disciples, save John were Martyred, the Romans slew many Christians, Islam in the last 1400 years have killed millions of Christians, so the 2000 some odd year Church Age is continual TRIBULATION, thus the Church comes out of the GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD as in 2000>7.  Which is GREATER? Why limit Gods vocabulary here? John is speaking about the 2000 some odd year Church Church Age which is GREATER than the 7 years of the 70th Week. 

16 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

My response:

Yes the church is raptured but not until Christ's parousia which follows the great tribulation. His arrival, at His parousia, comes before He begins to pour out His wrath upon the Beast worshiping earth dwellers.

Read Revelation 19 and please explain how we Marry the Lamb, come back to earth where the Beast and his Kings await us without a pre tribulation rapture, it is not possible. 

16 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

My response:

Sorry, wrong again. You can make assertions, but you cannot support them like I did in the post you are responding to.

I can destroy any post or mid wrath position. Anytime you want to try a debate. 

16 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

So there are at least two inconsistencies that I see here. You have Israel believing while they are still in blindness because Gentiles are still being added to Christ during the great tribulation. Also you unwittingly exposed one of you false assumptions, that the wrath of God begins at the opening of the first seal in the beginning of the week. When the verse you referred to as being the fulfillment of the 1335 days (which you think falls in the middle of the week) mentions that Elijah must come before the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is when God's wrath is poured out.

Mal 4:4  Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Mal 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

No, I have Israel believing at the very time God says they will believe, BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord. The Time of the Gentiles therefore is referring unto the Gentiles being given the Mantle of taking the Gospel unto the ends of the World. It has nothing to do with who is being added unto Christ, Jews were/are ADDED unto Christ during the Church age if they Believe on Christ Jesus. 

The First Seal IS NOT at the beginning of the week, so that assumption is all yours brother, the First Seal is opened in the Middle of the Week at the 1260, thus the Beast has 1260 days (42 Months) left to rule. 

The 1335 (Two-witnesses show up) happens 1335 days from the Second Coming, the 1290 or Abomination of Desolation happens 1290 days before the Second Coming and the 1260 or Anti-Christ conquering Jerusalem happens with 1260 Days left until Jesus' Second Coming. The 1260 of course FALLS in the Middle of the Week. Gods Wrath starts with the very FIRST SEAL in the Middle of the Week when the Anti-Christ is RELEASED by Jesus. The Seven Seals are Gods Wrath, the Trumpets come forth from the Seventh Seal and the Vials come forth from the Seventh Trumpet. 

16 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

My response:

Revelation Man, every elect Jew today is a part of the Body of Christ. As is every Gentile believer. The church is the elect, the church is the chosen. The church is made up of all true believers in Jesus Christ.

The ELECT are those who have come to Christ Jesus BY FAITH. Israel will only be GRAFTED back in when they BELIEVE, see  Romans chapter 11. We are all ELECTED by the Blood of Jesus Christ. No one is CHOSEN, all are Chosen via God who would have every man be saved, He desires that NONE SHOULD PERISH. There is no such thing as Predestination, it only means God PREDESTINED EVERYONE unto Salvation via the Blood of Christ, but many just choose not to accept this Pardon or FREE GIFT of Salvation.

16 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Concerning your statement: "These three (Matt 24:21; Dan 12:1; Rev 12:17) are the Time of greatest ever troubles." That is true for the church and Israel, it will be the most severe persecution ever experienced. It will make the Holocaust look like a walk in the park. However, the Beast worshipers will be having a party. They will be buying and selling, planting and building, eating and drinking, and marrying and giving in marriage while we are being exterminated from the earth (Luke 17:26-30). They will be at ease and thinking that everything is peace and safety for them, right up until the cosmic sign appears, the one that portends Christ's arrival. It is at that point that they know the jig is up and they begin to hide from the Lord who is arriving in the clouds of heaven (Rev 6:12-17). The Lord at that time will rapture the surviving believers and later the same day begin to pour out His wrath upon the Beast worshipers who persecuted us. Paul said:

The 21 Judgments say different, they will be running and hiding from Gods Wrath just like it says in Rev. ch. 6. The Church is not on earth, save the REMNANT CHURCH (Rev. 12:17) thus its a SMALL PART of what's left. The part you are speaking of is what they will be doing just before the Rapture. The SUDDEN DESTRUCTION is referring to anyone NOT RAPTURED, it will be just like the days of Noah, the Rains came before the floods. The Rapture comes, then 3.5 years later the Wrath will be upon those that take the Mark of the Beast, OR you can die for Christ, either way if you miss the Wedding you will be SHUT OUT. This you will go through HELL ON EARTH, one way or another. 

 

Edited by Revelation Man

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6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The problem is YOU ASSUME God/Jesus is talking about cutting the SEVEN YEAR PERIOD short, I don't. I assume hes speaking about cutting the Beasts rule to the 42 Months that God originally decided on allowing him to rule instead of 10 years or 20 years !!

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation Man, the only thing that is shortened is the unprecedented persecution of the church. This Christ does by removing us from the earth with the rapture. The Beast continues for all of his 42 months, the week is still 7 years, and Christ returns before its end to accomplish the remaining conditions of Dan 9:24.

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Rev 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Hallelujah

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6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I have been preaching 30 years brother. I know the bible front to back. Anyone that can read Rev. 19 and not see the Pre Trib Rapture I just have to SMH. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation Man, I have been preaching for 30+ years and like you I was given a system to use that I was told would make sense of all the various eschatological passages. It is the pre-trib/dispensational system. I grew up with it and became an expert in it, making the doctrine and arguments of the men at the forefront of the defense of pretribulationism my own. I was comfortable with the consensus of my peers until a few years ago I began to find Scriptural texts which were contrary to that system. The common practice of hermeneutical gymnastics and eisegesis I could no longer stomach.

One of hundreds of examples is the Rev 19 passage that has absolutely nothing to say about the rapture. Revelation 19 is not the arrival of Christ when He returns. It is His activity further into the day of the Lord.

Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Before Christ soils His vesture with the blood (Rev 19:13) of the nations which follow the Beast, He pours out His wrath suddenly upon the day of his arrival. All the trumpet and vial judgements must be complete first. It will take much time for them to be accomplished. At least six months, and maybe even 3 years. The fifth trumpet alone lasts 5 months. The Scripture is clear that His wrath begins to be poured out suddenly upon the day of His arrival.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Rev 19 is not Matt 24:30. Matt 24:30-31 is 1Thes 4:15-17; 5:2-3; 2Thes 1:6-10; 2:1-2; Rev 1:7; Heb 9:28; etc

Even as a pre-triber I understood that the saints of history expected to see the antichrist and suffer at his hand in the great tribulation before being rescued by Christ. What we were indoctrinated with (pretribulationism), is a new teaching that has no Scriptural support.

Hallelujah

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7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. { Where are THE ELECT Gathered from? HEAVEN, we return from HEAVEN !!! From one end of heaven to the other. }

The Fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the Rapture, the Gentiles we given the Mantle of taking the Gospel to the whole World. Israel REPENTS at the 1335 or 1335 days before Jesus returns, thus 75 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem. So that is BEFORE the Greatest Troubles even begin. See Malachi 4:5-6 my brother.

The GREAT TRIBULATION means they came out of the 2000 year CHURCH AGE. The Rapture of the Church has already happened, we see the Church in Rev. 5:9. The beheaded under the Alter  via the 5th Seal are SPECIFICALLY TOLD they must wait until their brothers have BEEN KILLED ALSO, which means they must wait for the entire 42 months of the Beats reign to end, so Rev. 7:9 has nothing to do with them. Wee see in Rev. 20:4 that the BEHEADED are Judged and Reign with Christ ON EARTH for 1000 years.  

Because the GREATEST TROUBLES ever happen during a certain period of time people want to LIMIT Gods Vocabulary here. The Church/Disciples were told by Jesus that they would have TRIBULATION ALWAYS, John said in Rev. 1:9 that he was their brother IN TRIBULATION. All of the Disciples, save John were Martyred, the Romans slew many Christians, Islam in the last 1400 years have killed many Christians, so the 2000 some odd year Church Age is continual TRIBULATION, thus the Church comes out of the GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD as in 2000>7.  Which is GREATER? Why limit Gods vocabulary here? John is speaking about the 2000 Church Church Age which is GREATER than the 7 years of the 70th Week. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation Man, I agree that the period that begins in the midst of the week that Jesus calls great tribulation is the last of what we call the church age, because the church (the elect) will most certainly suffer in it only to be rescued before every last believer is martyred. Find documentation in the chart below.

Hallelujah

The End of the Age Diagram March 2018 jpeg.jpg

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On 4/26/2018 at 3:47 PM, Last Daze said:

Have you informed the book's author?

 

Yes indeed!  Good point.  Jesus is the author, John was His scribe.  The fact of the matter is, there are several parenthetic passages in Revelation, such as that of Chapter 7.  The 144,000 Israelite evangelists are introduced in verses 1-8.  Followed by the Great Multitude the 144,000 will bring to the Lord, in verses 9-17.  Who are, in fact, the same ones in Rev.20:4, who are the tribulation martyrs/saints.

 

Quasar92

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