The Biblical teachings of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church

[n2thelight]

6 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"how does athe 24th chapter of matthew fit into a biblical teaching of pretrib rapture?"

 

The Lord's discourse is all about Israel during the coming 70th week decreed

It is just that simple

The pre-tribulation stealing is about the Lord's intent to immortalize His saved ones first

This He will do and then He will commence His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world

So what other parts of the Bible should we not worry about?

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

 

FYI, God provided His Holy Spirit only to those He chose to give it in OT times.  The New Covenant of Grace, where His HS is freely offered to all who believe in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, whom God raised from the dead, as his/her personal Lord and Savior, was not in existence until at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3!

Since I have provided all the Scriptural facts in the first two posts in this thread as well as other places, my interfacing about it with you is terminated on this subject, with this post.  It is pointless in spinding more time with someone who knows eschatology better than qualified theologians.

 

Quasar93

My friend, I know nothing about prophecy or the end of the age. I simply read and believe the best and most knowledgeable scholars on the subject, then I repeat what they said.

I find it very sad that you believe in the manner in which you do. It's hard for me to understand why people can be so focused on the current state and miss the history that led us here. And this in the time when knowledge is increased and the prophecies are coming to pass. The way of salvation has always been the same, through Christ, from the very beginning there is no other way. The patriarchs of the faith all knew Jesus and understood grace, faith and salvation is through trust in the Word and not the fat of rams and the blood of bulls; God is pleased with a contrite spirit and a broken heart; a willing vessel and love for Him. It has always been this way.

 

[Quasar93]

2 hours ago, n2thelight said:

So what other parts of the Bible should we not worry about?

 

As depicted in Jn.10:16, Jesus has TWO ELECTS.  Israel, whom He was addressing and the Church He would bring also.  His prophecy will not be fulfilled until He comes into His Millennial kingdom here on the earth.

In Mt.24:30-31, Jesus angels will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel], and from one end of heaven to the other [The Church], in His second coming to earth from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, WITH  His Church, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen [the sign of the righteous acts of the saints], white and clean, in His armies from heaven.

 

 

Quasar93 

[Steve Conley]

12 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Let me see your attempt at fielding an argument refuting any part of the Biblical teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church.  Failure to do so is clear evidence the views you propagate are those that are false! 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, your pre-trib foolishness has been refuted over and over, however, your blindness prevents you from grasping the simple exegetical understanding of the Scriptures.

Let's look at your statements.

Statement #1) "The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

I can agree with that statement. Jesus will meet the church (his elect) in the clouds, in the air at His coming (parousia) on the day of Christ or day of the Lord.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

These and more refer to that time.

Statement #2) "In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28!"

It is true that there is a first and second advent of Christ. The first was 2000 years ago and the second is to come, as spoken of in 1Thes 4:16; Matt 24:30; 2Thes 2:1-2. The Bible speaks nothing about a third advent.

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Act 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The destruction of the Beast and the armies that follow him, that is recorded in Rev 19, is not Christ's arrival at His second coming, it is His further activity in the day of the Lord. His arrival is when He reveals Himself to the world, at that point the persecutors of the church and Israel hide and the surviving saints who have been watching the sky welcome His appearing (Rev 6:12-17; Luke 21:28). It is at His arrival that the church has rest from persecution (2Thes 1:6-10).

Statement #3) "From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church."

I'm sorry, but Revelation 4:1-2 doesn't say anything about the church. All that we see is John, in spirit, being shown the throne of God. You have to be desperate to read the church into this passage. If this is the best you have, you have nothing. (I already know that you have nothing) I am an expert on the pre-trib model, I taught it for 30+ years

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Statement #4) "Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8!"

Rev 4:1-2 has nothing to do with the apostasia. As I have told you before, in all the historic documents available to us there is no evidence of even a single use of the word apostasia in the sense of physical departure. That's from 300 BC to 400 AD never once. The idea that the apostasia is the rapture is just a desperate attempt to find a pre-trib rapture in the text of Scripture. Apostasia is a notable falling away from the faith or as Jesus said many being offended (Matt 24:10). Most of the men you list as your authorities woudn't think of calling the apostasia the rapture.

Statement #5) "Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8."

It is true that the Church will be with Jesus in Heaven while the salvos of His wrath fall upon the Beast worshipers. But this isn't the unprecedented persecution that Jesus called great tribulation. This is Christ's tribulation upon the unbelieving that takes place in the day of the Lord which begins following the great tribulation in the second half of the week.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Statement #6) "From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16!

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Zec 14:4  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5  And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Act 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Act 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Act 2:29  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Act 15:16  After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

I think nearly every rapture model has Jesus back on the earth at the end of the week. How does this provide any support for the pre-trib rapture. I get it, I suppose you mean that the armies that follow him are the Church. Wow, we're going to be warriors, I thought we were just going to be priests and kings. I didn't know Christ was so egalitarian, even His bride gets in on the fighting. I wonder what all those mighty angels are for, you know, the ones He calls holy.

Whether or not the armies are the Church has no impact upon the Biblical model of Christ's return for His own. In the end we are reigning with Him here upon the earth in His millennial reign. All the verses you have referenced are part of the broad activities of Christ in his second coming. They provide no evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

Statement #7) "The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts: 1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

Absolutely, Jesus returns to the earth at His second coming (parousia). Remember that parousia refers to the arrival and continuing presence. It is not the same as "erchomai" which is also translated coming which means to come among other things. It is true that Jesus sets foot upon the earth at His coming, however, not at His arrival, but later. Just as Christ's first coming (parousia) was much more than His conception or birth, it involved His life, ministry, vicarious death, burial, and resurrection, etc., so also, will His second coming have many facets. Failure to recognize this leads to faulty eschatological models.

Statement #8) "2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!."

Again you fail to recognize the nature of the second parousia of Christ. I've addressed this already, above. Rev 19 says nothing of Christ's arrival.

Statement #9) "3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8."

It is true that the church will have already been resurrected and raptured at least many months before the Lord deals with the Beast and the armies that follow him as presented in Rev 19. And again apostasia is a departure from the faith not the rapture.

Statement #10) 4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

Again Rev 19 does not record His arrival.

If this is the best you have you are one gullible fellow. May our great God open your eyes and give you repentance for your folly.

Hallelujah

 

[Diaste]

On 4/27/2018 at 9:36 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

The Lord's discourse is all about Israel during the coming 70th week decreed

 

Brother in Christ,

I think you may have missed a few things about Jesus and Gentiles,

Most of the public ministry of Jesus was conducted in Jewish territory. Under the circumstances, the number of personal contacts with Gentiles recorded in the Gospels is surprising. He healed a Gadarene demoniac (Matt 8:28-34). Among ten lepers healed, one was a Samaritan, and Jesus remarked upon the fact that only the foreigner returned to thank him (Luke 17:12-19).

A Samaritan woman was the sole audience for one of Jesus’ greatest sermons. She received the assurance that the time was near when God would be worshiped, not just in Jerusalem or at Mt. Gerizim, but all over the world, “in spirit and in truth” (John 4: 5-42).

A Canaanite woman’s faith was rewarded when her daughter was healed. Much has been made of Jesus’ puzzling remark at the beginning of the encounter: “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt 15:24).  The significant point is that Jesus did minister to this Gentile woman, and praised her faith in the presence of His disciples and the Jewish onlookers; Matt 15:28 "Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment."

The centurion whose servant was healed was almost certainly a Roman. "

Matt 8, "10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west,and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment."

The coming of a group of Greeks precipitated the final crisis in the inner life of Jesus: His decision to move on to the cross. It is clear that these were not merely Hellenized Jews, but aliens, either inquirers or proselytes, who had accepted Judaism and thus were qualified to worship in the temple area, at least in the court of the Gentiles. Their request for an audience caused Jesus to declare: “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified” (John 12:23). The deep interest of the Greeks was evidence that the world was ready for His redemptive mission to be culminated by His atoning death: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” “All men”—Greeks as well as Jews, Gentiles, and Hebrews alike—this is the clear implication of these profound words recorded by John (12:32).

If Jesus ministry was exclusively to the Jew and Israel he would not have ministered to Gentiles on these recorded occasions, and no doubt many other occasions that were not recorded. The Gospel, which is the full embodiment of the will of God for all mankind, is the fullness of the Christ of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God; which gospel has gone out to the whole world. Jesus ministry was to all people of all ages.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

Matthew 24 is all about Israel

[Quasar93]

15 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, your pre-trib foolishness has been refuted over and over, however, your blindness prevents you from grasping the simple exegetical understanding of the Scriptures.

Let's look at your statements.

Statement #1) "The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

I can agree with that statement. Jesus will meet the church (his elect) in the clouds, in the air at His coming (parousia) on the day of Christ or day of the Lord.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

These and more refer to that time.

Statement #2) "In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28!"

It is true that there is a first and second advent of Christ. The first was 2000 years ago and the second is to come, as spoken of in 1Thes 4:16; Matt 24:30; 2Thes 2:1-2. The Bible speaks nothing about a third advent.

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Act 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The destruction of the Beast and the armies that follow him, that is recorded in Rev 19, is not Christ's arrival at His second coming, it is His further activity in the day of the Lord. His arrival is when He reveals Himself to the world, at that point the persecutors of the church and Israel hide and the surviving saints who have been watching the sky welcome His appearing (Rev 6:12-17; Luke 21:28). It is at His arrival that the church has rest from persecution (2Thes 1:6-10).

Statement #3) "From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church."

I'm sorry, but Revelation 4:1-2 doesn't say anything about the church. All that we see is John, in spirit, being shown the throne of God. You have to be desperate to read the church into this passage. If this is the best you have, you have nothing. (I already know that you have nothing) I am an expert on the pre-trib model, I taught it for 30+ years

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Statement #4) "Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8!"

Rev 4:1-2 has nothing to do with the apostasia. As I have told you before, in all the historic documents available to us there is no evidence of even a single use of the word apostasia in the sense of physical departure. That's from 300 BC to 400 AD never once. The idea that the apostasia is the rapture is just a desperate attempt to find a pre-trib rapture in the text of Scripture. Apostasia is a notable falling away from the faith or as Jesus said many being offended (Matt 24:10). Most of the men you list as your authorities woudn't think of calling the apostasia the rapture.

Statement #5) "Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8."

It is true that the Church will be with Jesus in Heaven while the salvos of His wrath fall upon the Beast worshipers. But this isn't the unprecedented persecution that Jesus called great tribulation. This is Christ's tribulation upon the unbelieving that takes place in the day of the Lord which begins following the great tribulation in the second half of the week.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Statement #6) "From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16!

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Zec 14:4  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5  And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Act 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Act 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Act 2:29  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Act 15:16  After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

I think nearly every rapture model has Jesus back on the earth at the end of the week. How does this provide any support for the pre-trib rapture. I get it, I suppose you mean that the armies that follow him are the Church. Wow, we're going to be warriors, I thought we were just going to be priests and kings. I didn't know Christ was so egalitarian, even His bride gets in on the fighting. I wonder what all those mighty angels are for, you know, the ones He calls holy.

Whether or not the armies are the Church has no impact upon the Biblical model of Christ's return for His own. In the end we are reigning with Him here upon the earth in His millennial reign. All the verses you have referenced are part of the broad activities of Christ in his second coming. They provide no evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

Statement #7) "The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts: 1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

Absolutely, Jesus returns to the earth at His second coming (parousia). Remember that parousia refers to the arrival and continuing presence. It is not the same as "erchomai" which is also translated coming which means to come among other things. It is true that Jesus sets foot upon the earth at His coming, however, not at His arrival, but later. Just as Christ's first coming (parousia) was much more than His conception or birth, it involved His life, ministry, vicarious death, burial, and resurrection, etc., so also, will His second coming have many facets. Failure to recognize this leads to faulty eschatological models.

Statement #8) "2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!."

Again you fail to recognize the nature of the second parousia of Christ. I've addressed this already, above. Rev 19 says nothing of Christ's arrival.

Statement #9) "3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8."

It is true that the church will have already been resurrected and raptured at least many months before the Lord deals with the Beast and the armies that follow him as presented in Rev 19. And again apostasia is a departure from the faith not the rapture.

Statement #10) 4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

Again Rev 19 does not record His arrival.

If this is the best you have you are one gullible fellow. May our great God open your eyes and give you repentance for your folly.

Hallelujah

 

 

The above attempt to discredit the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke John and Paul, clearly delineated in my OP and the following post, not only calls us all liars, But is the epitome of Scriptural interpretive failure.Nothing you have presented begins to negate the Biblical teachings of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, except to reveal your opinionated, vitriolic diatribe against me personally.

Review the following article pertaining to the ancient Jewish betrothal customs that reveal why the Church will be in heaven for seven years, for our marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, that will take place in heaven, as recorded in Rev.10:8-8.  Your denial of the Church returning with Jesus in His second coming to the earth, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, [the righteous acts of the saints, recorded in verse 8], white and clean, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14, is reinforced in Zech.14:4-5 and Jude 14 as well, is more of your failure in understanding eschatology.  FYI, I believed/received Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior around a Church campfire, confessing my sins , in August of 1937, and received the Holy Spirit immediately, who has dwelled within me ever since, and taught me all the Scriptural material I post to this day.  You are the one in sore need for repentance!  And where, may I ask, did you do soAre there parallels between Jewish wedding traditions and our relationship to Christ?

Are there parallels between Jewish wedding traditions and our relationship to Christ?

Jewish wedding traditions at the time of Christ are a fascinating study topic, and certain parallels can be seen between those customs and Christian theology. In the Bible, the Church is sometimes metaphorically understood to be Jesus’ Bride (Revelation 21:2, 9–10; 19:7; 22:17).

The Mishnah Kiddushin (the section of the Talmud dealing with “dedication” or betrothal) specifies that a bride is acquired by a groom in one of three ways; one involves the groom leaving his father’s home and traveling to the bride’s home to “purchase” her for a price. The groom gives a token or a dowry, and its value must be known to the bride. In all cases, the wife can only be acquired with her consent. The marriage contract, or ketubah, is then established, and from that moment on the bride is sanctified, or set apart, exclusively for her bridegroom. It is customary for the groom and bride to drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction has been said.

This prenuptial process can be seen as symbolic of Christ’s work on our behalf. Jesus left the home of His Father (heaven) and traveled to the home of His prospective Bride (earth) to purchase her for a price; that is, His own blood (1 Corinthians 7:23). His Bride has joyously consented to the match. He has given her a priceless token, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:6–16). With the establishing of the ketubah(the New Covenant), Jesus’ Bride was sanctified for Him (1 Corinthians 6:11). The communion wine is symbolic of the covenant by which Christ obtained His Bride.

The Shulkhan Arukh, an exhaustive presentation of the details of Jewish law, elaborates regarding the two stages of marriage: the betrothal (kiddushin, meaning “sanctified”) and the consummation of the marriage (nisuin, translated “elevation”). Kiddushin is not engagement as we understand it. It is a binding agreement in which the woman is legally considered the wife of the man. It was routine in Jesus’ day for kiddushin and nisuin to be separated by as much as a year. During that time the bridegroom would construct the marital home.

This, too, can be viewed as a metaphor for spiritual truth. After sealing the covenant with the Church, Jesus ascended to His Father’s home to prepare a dwelling place. Just prior to His death, Jesus told His disciples, “My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am” (John 14:2–3).

According to Jewish marriage law, when the time came for nisuin, the groom would return for his bride, accompanied by male escorts. The exact time of his arrival was not usually known in advance (see Matthew 25:1–15). The groom’s arrival was announced with a shout. The Church’s Bridegroom has been separated from His Bride now for nearly 2,000 years, and one day He will come for her and snatch her from the earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). We don’t know when exactly this will happen; we must be ready and remain faithful (Mark 13:33). Jesus will be accompanied by an angelic escort, preceded by a shout, when He returns for the Church (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

After being whisked from her home, the Jewish bride remained hidden at the groom’s father’s house for seven days. Similarly, the Church will remain “hidden” for a period of seven years, during the prophesied Tribulation period. After the seven days, the Jewish bride left the bridal chamber unveiled; likewise, after seven years the Church will return to earth with Christ, in full view of all (Colossians 3:4).

Viewed as an analogy, Jewish wedding customs have great significance for both believers and unbelievers. If you are a believer, you must remember your devotion to your Bridegroom so as not to commit spiritual adultery against Him (see James 4:4). The apostle Paul says to the Church, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.” He then warns us not to allow our minds to be “led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:2–3).

If you are an unbeliever, now is the time to reevaluate your belief system in light of Jesus’ words and the prophecies of Revelation. Don’t be left behind in the Rapture. Jesus offers eternal life to all who repent and believe.

Recommended Resource: Our Father Abraham: Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith by Marvin Wilson

Source: gotquestions.org

 

Quasar93

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Matthew 24 is all about Israel

I know you hope that is the case. There are logical points that dispute this contention Matt 24 is only about Israel.

1) Jesus says "many will come in my name saying, I am Christ." The Jews and Israel would not care about this. By this point in Jesus ministry the Jewish people had rejected Jesus and all His claims about being the Messiah and the Son of God, and God himself, and the Jews tried to kill Jesus on more than one occasion. Jesus was talking to the coming church here, from every people group across the whole earth.

2) Jesus says, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake". He is not talking to the Jewish people here either. The Jewish people rejected Jesus claims and will soon demand His death. So the Jews would never hold the testimony of Jesus and never be hated for the name of Jesus for they rejected Him and His gift of life. Again, Jesus is speaking to the coming church and His followers from every nation, tribe and language, Jew or not.

3) Jesus says, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Clearly the Lord had a world wide view of where the Gospel would be preached. How could this be for Israel and the Jews only, when the Gospel is for all nations? It cannot be and was never meant to be. Jesus personally was sent to the lost sheep of Israel only, but does not mean the teaching of Jesus was only for Israel.

4) Jesus says, "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not."  "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold,[he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not." Again, this cannot be for the Jews and Israel only as they would not be following Jesus in the first place. 

5) Jesus says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other." The scope here is worldwide. This cannot be just Israel. If the gathering is to be all the elect from everywhere under which heaven covers, then it's all people from every nation, tribe and language, not just Israel.

6) In Matt 24:36-51 Jesus says to watch diligently and curb personal behavior, and bear good fruit because He is coming and He will know the faithful from the unjust. This cannot be to the Jews as they did not, do not, believe Jesus is the Son of Man, nor the Messiah, nor the Son of God, nor the Great God himself. They rejected all these claims and had Jesus put to death because of these claims. They only ones watching and behaving as they should are those who believe Jesus is the Messiah, the church, and this is to whom Jesus is speaking.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

No question about it

[JoeCanada]

22 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

According to Jewish marriage law, when the time came for nisuin, the groom would return for his bride, accompanied by male escorts. The exact time of his arrival was not usually known in advance (see Matthew 25:1–15). The groom’s arrival was announced with a shout. The Church’s Bridegroom has been separated from His Bride now for nearly 2,000 years, and one day He will come for her and snatch her from the earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). We don’t know when exactly this will happen; we must be ready and remain faithful (Mark 13:33). Jesus will be accompanied by an angelic escort, preceded by a shout, when He returns for the Church (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

After being whisked from her home, the Jewish bride remained hidden at the groom’s father’s house for seven days. Similarly, the Church will remain “hidden” for a period of seven years, during the prophesied Tribulation period. After the seven days, the Jewish bride left the bridal chamber unveiled; likewise, after seven years the Church will return to earth with Christ, in full view of all (Colossians 3:4).

Viewed as an analogy, Jewish wedding customs have great significance for both believers and unbelievers. If you are a believer, you must remember your devotion to your Bridegroom so as not to commit spiritual adultery against Him (see James 4:4). The apostle Paul says to the Church, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.” He then warns us not to allow our minds to be “led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:2–3).
 

 

Quasar93

Hi Quasar....

I see that you are using an analogy. Well, ok, so here is an analogy: it's from Deut: 24:5

 

When a man takes a new wife, he shall not go out with the army nor be charged with any duty; he shall be free at home one year and shall give happiness to his wife whom he has taken. (Deut. 24:5)

This prescription about marriage will be honored by Jesus. He will marry the Bride of Christ in heaven after the Rapture. Only a year later will he return to wage war against the Antichrist armies.  In Revelation 19 we see this exact order of events. The Wedding Supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven  first, only then does Jesus mount a white horse and return to the earth to fight Armageddon.  There is a one year period between the wedding and the return. That year will be the Day of the Lord.

Here are 3 witness scriptures..... everything is established by 2 or 3 witnesses....2 Cor 13:1 (NASB Every fact is to be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. (Isa 34:8)

To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God (Isa. 61:2)

For the day of vengeance was in My heart, And My year of redemption has come. (Isa. 63:4)

Knowing that the Wrath of God begins on a day but lasts a year helps other scriptures fall into place.  Noah was in the Ark exactly one year and ten days.

The coming of the Son of Man is to be like unto the days of Noah. Noah was above the earth 1 year and 10 days while the unrighteous were judged. The righteous will be above the earth 1 year and 10 days after the Rapture while the unrighteous will be judged during the Day of the Lord.

And we also know when the Day of the Lord begins: Joel 2:30-31 ( 2 or 3 witnesses)

 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
³¹ “The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

In Thes 2......."to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for IT will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed......"

Right there we have the timing of the Day of the Lord. ......."for IT will not come"....."IT" referring to the Day of the Lord, because the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness comes first.

Be silent before the Lord God, for the Day of the Lord is near." Zeph 1:7

The seven sealed scroll contains the title deed to the earth, the book of life (all the names of the righteous) and the wrath of God. After the seventh seal is broken, there is silence in heaven for a half an hour. Zephaniah prophesied this would happen prior to the pouring out of God's wrath.

Psalm 65: 1-4........" There will be silence ^[a]before You,(in heaven) and praise in Zion,(on earth) O God,

This passage shows the contrast of silence in heaven and praise on earth. This happens at the seventh seal. Jesus has left heaven and has gone for his bride........the rapture/resurrection!

So, the Day of the Lord begins at the seventh seal. The seal opens, the rapture/resurrection takes place, the Day of the Lord commences.