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Quasar93

The Biblical teachings of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church

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4 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

'Where is their rapture?"

 

At the same time .... both the dead in Christ and those living at the time will go together in a flash 

The idea here is the contradiction between the western church and reality. Believers in Jesus die through persecution for their belief, and their testimony of Christ and the truth, every year, 100,000. A year. Not passing away peacefully in their beds, but through persecution. This is what the pretrib rapture says will be avoided by the church; the persecution and death of believers. It's happening right now and these of our brethren suffer and die for Jesus, and where is their great hope in avoiding persecution and death? What do you say to them? Where is their pretrib rapture? 

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5 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

The above seat of the pants exegesis with unsupportable opinion, without Scripura verification is completely worthless.

I have posted the full evidence of proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church.  Either you produce your Scripturally based argument against it to prove any of it is false, or your views are the ones that are.

And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology?

Quasar93

Brother, I offered nothing in the way of exegesis. I simply want to know what evidence would suffice to prove the truth about the gathering of the elect and the coming of our Lord.

The true master of the prophetic is resurrected and sits on the right hand of power. It is from Him that I learn. I have no qualification to teach. I listen, repeat what I have heard, and let the Holy Spirit do the teaching.

But as you wish, I'll comment in the format you presented.

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10 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Exactly what I just said .... it is the wrath of the Lord that will come upon an unbelieving world

And it will last for 7 years [Revelation 8 through 19]

.... but first He will call those who belong to Him home 

Well that creates a problem. If the tribulation is the full 7 years, and it is the wrath of God, and we, as believers in Jesus, are not appointed to wrath, how is it believers would then experience the wrath of God? As we all know there is a great big group of believers that are taken to heaven after going through tribulation. This is not possible if the scripture is true,    "For God has not appointed us to wrath." Are you saying the scripture is wrong? Some believers are appointed to wrath while some are not?

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15 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Thanks, but no thanks

If you go into the coming tribulation period it will be as one who is not straight on the word of God

Once you get there you will have to repent in order to be saved

Believe this truth [Revelation 3:15-22]

So it just a matter of belief that dictates if a person will experience tribulation or not? 

 

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5 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Hey brother, 

I'll take it point by point.

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

 This is true, Jesus will meet us in the air. While this passage shows us who, what and where, it does show us when. No conclusion can be drawn on the timing of the above described event from this passage. Pretrib simply says, "It must be..." That is proof of personal interpretation only.

In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8!

The church is not seen here In Rev 4:1-2. There is no language leading us to understand John represents the church at this point in the narrative, or before or after this point. This is a made up idea used to prove a point by pretrib as no scriptural proof exists likening John to anything other than an old exiled prophet on an island in the Mediterranean.

Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

Lots of assumptions here. Just because you say something does not make it true. Pretrib starts with assumptions and builds the case from there. One must interpret 2 Thess 2:1-7 correctly, which pretrib does not. Paul says the coming of the Lord and the gathering are linked in time and space. Even if it's true that 'apostasia' can be interpreted as 'departure' which it cannot, the day of the Lord and the gathering cannot occur until both conditions are met, apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin. Pretrib overlooks this as it does not fit the agenda. This is the great Rapture verse for pretrib, laying aside all doubt over the timing of the rapture, and yet key points are missed. Many. I'll get into that later.

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

Matthew 24 records Jesus comes in the clouds. The angels gather the elect at this point. With a mighty trumpet. That's pretty much the same as 1 Thess 4 and is the only gathering that is specified in scripture. Any other gathering is assumed and based on a lack of evidence.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

Not true. Rev 19 records Jesus comes with His holy ones. Angels are Holy ones. It's not clear this is the church from this passage. It is true that Jesus uses the term 'elect' for the church and that term is not use in Rev 19.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

 

Quasar93

 

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There are the writings of a dispensational brother Clarence Larkin from the early 20th century that fully cover the dispensational understanding of the time line of prophetic events according to that theology. 

His love for our King is obvious and his passion was exhorting for me as a young believer. He was a man of God but even though the theology kept him from seeing further connectivity of scripture he was honest in that he stated that the pre trib rapture of the church was not clearly stated in scripture but placed sometime before the seventieth week because he and others could not figure to put it anywhere else.

Somehow over the last one hundred years dispensationalists with no further understanding of scripture or light than what Clarence had are pronouncing the pre trib rapture is clearly biblical without producing any clear scripture that says so.

At least Clarence was honest. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

 

Why some of the text of your post didn't appear as a quote from it is a mystery to me.  In any event, you are again providing nothing but your opinion, together with Scripture that is irrelevant to this issue.  You make remarks such as, "lots of assumption here," etc.  While if you read the Scriptures I have used to fully support this issue, you could see crystal clear, you have no argument whatever, in denying the Scriptural proofs of the coming pre-trib rapture, as posted in the OP and the post that follows, whatever..

FYI, I a a qualified teacher of the Bible. prophecy and eschatology, having earned it from three different Bible colleges, with 36 years of research and study in prophecy and eschatology ALONE.  And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology.

FYI, the Church meets Jesus in the clouds of the sky, in 1 Thess.4:17, when He comes for it with all those who previously died in Him, in verses 14, 15 and 16.  From where He will take it to heaven, recorded in Jn.14>2-3 and 28.  The Bride/Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, that Jesus used John, symbolically, in Rev.4:1-2 to represent the Church.  Who are then seen in heaven for their marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, recorded in Rev.19:7-8.  Jesus will then return to the earth, WITH HIS CHURCH, in his second coming, following Him, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen [A sign of the righteous acts of the saints, recorded in verse 8], white and clean, in His armies from heaven.  Your attempt to alter the Scriptural meaning by calling those in verse 14, angels, is false.  There is no doubt whatever, the angels will be in Jesus armies from heaven also, but verse 14 specifically refers to the saints/Church.

May I suggest that you refrain from calling anything I post as "not true," but rather, try proving it with Scriptural support.

 

 

Quasar93 
 

Edited by Quasar93

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2 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

Why some of the text of your post didn't appear as a quote from it is a mystery to me.  In any event, you are again providing nothing but your opinion, together with Scripture that is irrelevant to this issue.  You make remarks such as, "lots of assumption here," etc.  While if you read the Scriptures I have used to fully support this issue, you could see crystal clear, you have no argument whatever, in denying the Scriptural proofs of the coming pre-trib rapture, as posted in the OP and the post that follows, whatever..

FYI, I a a qualified teacher of the Bible. prophecy and eschatology, having earned it from three different Bible colleges, with 36 years of research and study in prophecy and eschatology ALONE.  And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology.

FYI, the Church meets Jesus in the clouds of the sky, in 1 Thess.4:17, when He comes for it with all those who previously died in Him, in verses 14, 15 and 16.  From where He will take it to heaven, recorded in Jn.14>2-3 and 28.  The Bride/Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, that Jesus used John, symbolically, in Rev.4:1-2 to represent the Church.  Who are then seen in heaven for their marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, recorded in Rev.19:7-8.  Jesus will then return to the earth, WITH HIS CHURCH, in his second coming, following Him, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen [A sign of the righteous acts of the saints, recorded in verse 8], white and clean, in His armies from heaven.  Your attempt to alter the Scriptural meaning by calling those in verse 14, angels, is false.  There is no doubt whatever, the angels will be in Jesus armies from heaven also, but verse 14 specifically refers to the saints/Church.

May I suggest that you refrain from calling anything I post as "not true," but rather, try proving it with Scriptural support.

 

 

Quasar93 
 

No scriptural support is given for the armies of Jesus consisting of angels or the church because there is none. Rev 19 is non specific as to the identity of the holy ones that fight with the Lord. That these holy ones are the church is imperative to the pretrib doctrine. Angels are dressed in pure white linen as well, are called holy, and are the servants of God. Based on this one cannot be dogmatic about the identity of the holy ones in Rev 19 unless other scriptural support is extant. You have any?

2 thessalonians 2 is the exemplar of rapture passages, the paragon, if you will. Would it surprise you to know that pretrib has it all wrong? 

Not only does pretrib misdefine apostasia, it backfires on what withholds who, and he who now letteth will let....The truth is it's the revealing of the beast at the midpoint delaying the return of Jesus, and since apostasia appears in the the Koine Greek, and is in the original texts, and for centuries before so called scholars foisted their personal take on the congregation, and was always defined, and still is, as revolt or defection and never as a departure from one place to another; why would anyone conclude an alternate term was used? Or why try to force a definition that doesn't fit the original and true definition of the word that appears in the original text?

Why would Paul use a term for revolt if he meant, leaving from one place to go to another? He would not. Paul is a superb scholar superior to any modern scholar and learned directly from the Lord Jesus himself. This fact alone puts to shame any claim of modern scholarly expertise.

But you'll see, brother.

The beast comes to purify the body as this is the Lord's will.

You will see the beast rise, and you'll be here. 

You'll see the A of D, and you will be here.

You'll see the mark of the beast, and you will be here. 

Soon this will all be clear.

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Interpret the following scriptures Diaste [Revelation 3:10, 3:15-22; 4:4; 5:1-10; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:14]

Who are the people in each?

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Diaste said:

No scriptural support is given for the armies of Jesus consisting of angels or the church because there is none. Rev 19 is non specific as to the identity of the holy ones that fight with the Lord. That these holy ones are the church is imperative to the pretrib doctrine. Angels are dressed in pure white linen as well, are called holy, and are the servants of God. Based on this one cannot be dogmatic about the identity of the holy ones in Rev 19 unless other scriptural support is extant. You have any?

2 thessalonians 2 is the exemplar of rapture passages, the paragon, if you will. Would it surprise you to know that pretrib has it all wrong? 

Not only does pretrib misdefine apostasia, it backfires on what withholds who, and he who now letteth will let....The truth is it's the revealing of the beast at the midpoint delaying the return of Jesus, and since apostasia appears in the the Koine Greek, and is in the original texts, and for centuries before so called scholars foisted their personal take on the congregation, and was always defined, and still is, as revolt or defection and never as a departure from one place to another; why would anyone conclude an alternate term was used? Or why try to force a definition that doesn't fit the original and true definition of the word that appears in the original text?

Why would Paul use a term for revolt if he meant, leaving from one place to go to another? He would not. Paul is a superb scholar superior to any modern scholar and learned directly from the Lord Jesus himself. This fact alone puts to shame any claim of modern scholarly expertise.

But you'll see, brother.

The beast comes to purify the body as this is the Lord's will.

You will see the beast rise, and you'll be here. 

You'll see the A of D, and you will be here.

You'll see the mark of the beast, and you will be here. 

Soon this will all be clear.

 

The following Scriptural facts to properly interpret them, do not always come from a single passage of Scripture.  Thet also fully verify what I have previously posted and refute your guesswork over them:

Mt.25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

 

Zech.14:5 "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

Jude 14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints"

 

Rev.19:14 "14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean"

 

Rev.19:8 "Fine linen, bright and clean,was given her to wear.”

(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

he Greek word apostasia, and the Latin word Fiscessio, in 2Thess.2:3, mean departure, or, to depart:

2 Thess.2:1 - "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to[meet] Him, we beg you, brethren, not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed.. Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things? (vs. 5). 

There is a difference between the terms, The Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Day of the Lord. The Coming of our Lord, is for the gathering of the Church to meet Him, as in the fetching of the Bride found in I Thessalonians 4:16-17; and the Day of the Lord is the day of His vengeance, His wrath as we read in Joel 2:2, A day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and of thick mists and darkness; a day of destruction, Isaiah 13:6; a great and terrible day (Joel 2:31); the Day of the Lord is darkness and not light; it is as if a man fled from a lion and a bear met him, or went into the house and leaned with his hand against the wall and a serpent bit him (Amos 5:18-19). 

So the Christians in Thessalonica understood the meaning of this day and through some letter they received, they feared to be in the tribulation. Paul then assured them: The Day of the Lord will not come until the departure comes first and after that the son of perdition will be revealed; and again he assured them again with the words, And now you know what is restraining him; the work of lawlessness is already at work in the world, but it is restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way and then the lawless one will be revealed (vs.6-8). 

This is the most comforting passage assuring the Bride of Christ that she will be taken before the revealing of the antichrist and the time of tribulation. The lawless one will be revealed only on the right time and no one knows when because this event is connected with the taking of the Bride of Christ, a day no one knows when, either the hour of her departure. Only when she is taken away will he be given power to govern the world, for he has no power over the Bride of Christ, whose body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. God’s removal of His Bride will confirm His words, 

Nothing can take them (His sheep) out of My hands. God will protect her from the lawless one by taking her away to Himself. So, as Paul said, Comfort and encourage your hearts and strengthen them in every good work and word (II Thessalonians 2:17); and let no one deceive you with the idea that you are going through the tribulation, just as he assured the Thessalonians, he is assuring us of that too!

For the complete article:

http://www.lightfromtheword.org/upload/Apostasia%20or%20Departure.pdf

 

Quasar93

Edited by Quasar93

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