Agonizing Over a Problem With a Pastor

[pg4Him]

Hello everyone. I'm a long-time member who pops into Worthy when I have the time. I'm a strong believer who has done my best to support the body of Christ for many years.

Now I'm having a major problem, and I hope my fellow Christians can help. I'm trying to keep this anonymous.

We recently moved to a new town. In need of a new church, we asked a local friend if we could join her church. She was excited for us to join. On our first visit, we were slightly disappointed to find a very small church (I mean like 10-12 members) which had used to be much larger before it started dying out. Everyone in leadership was older than 45. Very conventional, very repetitive, and very very routine.

We're not the sort of people who reject small churches because they're small. We are not "customer" type members who want a church to please us. We believe in serving where we are needed. The pastor kept saying he was praying for growth, and he said that we seemed to be an answer to his prayers, so we agreed to stick around and see if we could help.

By help, I don't mean that we want to teach a class or sing on the worship team. I simply mean that we wanted to make some friends, get involved in some fellowship, and labor where we might be needed.

Unfortunately, in the past several months since, we've come to see why this church can't grow. There is so much immaturity that it's stunning. The pastor and his wife get into arguments during worship practice, then they talk about each other before service, and they're still in a bad mood during service. I've actually witnessed the pastor's wife come stomping into the fellowship hall, complaining about the pastor to another member, and start slamming dishes while she set up coffee and donuts. This should give you some idea of how the sermons go.

This is the church's behavior across the board. There is always some petty spat going on between members, and it usually leads to some new childish policy. Church members come together for 2 or 3 hours Sunday morning, go through a well-worn routine, and then leave. We've invited people out to lunch, and we got no takers. When we asked about setting up a home group, we got a list of excuses that people were too busy or couldn't go across town. All these months later, we are no closer to having real friends there.

We're not being fed, we have no friends, we feel like we're surrounded by children, and we never know when we're walking into another soap opera. And we can certainly forget about teaching a class or singing on the praise team because the old members are doing just fine without us.

Church leaders tell us over and over that it's a sin to criticize pastors. I am sure that this pastor is depressed and overwhelmed. The last thing we want is to judge him. But what are we supposed to do? He's always too busy to meet with us. If we just stop going, we're quitters. If we tell him he may need counseling, we're critical.

How do you take someone aside for a (loving) conversation about a problem when they're too busy for coffee, too overwhelmed for more bad news, and probably unable to do change anything? 

[Melissa7]

Wow, that is quite a dilemma! I don't attend church myself, so I'm going to leave your question to the more mature believers here. I do want to give you props for being a loving and caring Christian. The fact that you don't just want to quit, and that you desire to help this church, shows God's love shining through you.

May the Lord give you the answers you seek and give you His peace in the meantime.

[GandalfTheWise]

1 hour ago, pg4Him said:

We recently moved to a new town. In need of a new church, we asked a local friend if we could join her church. She was excited for us to join. On our first visit, we were slightly disappointed to find a very small church (I mean like 10-12 members) which had used to be much larger before it started dying out. Everyone in leadership was older than 45. Very conventional, very repetitive, and very very routine.

[Edited for space]

Church leaders tell us over and over that it's a sin to criticize pastors. I am sure that this pastor is depressed and overwhelmed. The last thing we want is to judge him. But what are we supposed to do? He's always too busy to meet with us. If we just stop going, we're quitters. If we tell him he may need counseling, we're critical.

How do you take someone aside for a (loving) conversation about a problem when they're too busy for coffee, too overwhelmed for more bad news, and probably unable to do change anything? 

The reality is that any ministry that is shrinking and characterized by strife is likely very unhealthy.  It's going to take a serious move of God to fix what is wrong before it will become healthy and start growing again.  Sadly, churches in this situation often see lack of numbers as the problem and think that the solution is to get more members.  They are often unwilling to look at themselves and ask God what needs to change in themselves.  Indeed, anyone who dares to point out that fighting and strife might be what keeps people away are shouted down as being part of the problem.  I've seen this first hand in a few places.

Over the years, I've been in many ministries and churches that have had problems of various types.   One thing that is usually true is this.  There are usually a couple deep rooted issues (or maybe one) that are the real source of the problems.  The vast majority of what is seen are symptoms caused by a few root causes (or maybe one).  There've been times I could make a difference, but some times I could not.  

I first learned this in a church we joined 5 years into the aftermath of a nasty split.  Everyone was fighting over everything.  Membership was a revolving door.  We eventually gave up and left ourselves.   It wasn't until years later reflecting on this that I realized most of the problems  flowed from the old-timers being spiritually and emotionally hurt during the initial split.  The long term members who stayed with the church after the split felt betrayed and abandoned by the pastoral staff during the split.  Indeed, a few associate pastors had left and a number of people followed them.   The old-timers had been deeply hurt and wounded and no one in leadership afterwards stepped up to acknowledge this or help them heal from it.  The net result of this pain was that a root of bitterness took hold.  They hit a point where they couldn't bring themselves to trust another pastor.  The pastor when we joined was the 5th senior pastor in 5 years.  There were people who'd publicly talk nicely about the pastor but behind closed doors would gossip and backbite about him between themselves and trying to convince new members not to trust the pastor.   For them, it had become about protecting "their church" from outsiders.   All the backbiting, fighting, bickering, complaining about the past, etc.  was due to this deep-seated spiritual and emotional hurt.  They simply could not bring themselves to trust a pastor or outsiders (as they thought of any new members that supported that pastor).   We eventually gave up and left.    Everyone was so busy fighting over things that no one ever took a deep breath, stepped back, and tried to look at the big picture.

My counsel would be this.   First, prayerfully consider leaving.   Sometimes God puts us in a situation to make a difference; sometimes not.  If you cannot make a difference there and it is affecting you negatively, consider getting out.   Perhaps ask yourself, if you knew what you know now, would you have joined in the first place?    I'd also ask the serious question, where did most of the old members go?  Is there a spiritually healthier church where your attempts to reach out would be encouraged and responded to?   The bottom line though is what God wants you to do going forward.

If you feel that God wants you to stay and make a difference, I'd recommend that you prayerfully ask for God's discernment as to what the real problem is.  My guess is that much of what you see are symptoms of a few root causes.  It might be associated with the pastor, it might be associated with one or two board members, it might be associated with a few very influential members or families, given that there are a dozen members, maybe most of them.   There may have been something that happened a decade ago that people are still hurt and angry about.  The pastor might be lacking in self-confidence, scared of leaving,  and being hounded by a board member or two.   There might be a distrust of younger people due to some mistake that happened ages ago.  Until God gives you clear discernment and insight as to the real root issue, there's not much that can be done.    Once you have a clear spiritual sense of what God is revealing about the real situation, He may then give you a course of action that can make a difference.  It might be that there are one or two people that you need to break the ice with and become friends, and that will start to spread.  Perhaps giving a particular book (as lead by God) to the pastor as a gift might do something.   Perhaps there is some type of spiritual battle that needs to be fought in prayer.

I've seen God turn ministries around in miraculous ways.  I've seen ministries just wither and eventually die because they didn't want to change in ways God wanted them to.

I feel for you because I've been in similar situations.  It can be tough at times.

[Hidden In Him]

2 hours ago, pg4Him said:

But what are we supposed to do?

I have not read Gandalf's post yet, and usually he is very thoughtful with his answers. But while I agree with Melissa that it is commendable of you to be so patient with that church, my initial response to this question is very plain and simple: Leave. Unless you feel a very specific leading to stay for some reason, that is not somewhere where you are ever going to grow any time soon. I would just have a nice meeting or dinner with your friend and with a very heart-felt explanation inform her that you two need to find someplace you can grow, and right now that is not the place where you can do it.

Don't feel so obligated to others that you sacrifice your own spiritual welfare for them. This is a habit with many believers, but it is taking self-sacrifice past the point that one should. What could happen if tragedy strikes and you truly need some strong Christian fellowship to get you through? Where will you be then?

[Heart2Soul]

3 hours ago, pg4Him said:

 

Unfortunately, in the past several months since, we've come to see why this church can't grow. There is so much immaturity that it's stunning. The pastor and his wife get into arguments during worship practice, then they talk about each other before service, and they're still in a bad mood during service. I've actually witnessed the pastor's wife come stomping into the fellowship hall, complaining about the pastor to another member, and start slamming dishes while she set up coffee and donuts. This should give you some idea of how the sermons go.

How do you feel about binding and rebuking demonic influences in people? This is pretty obvious that there is division and strife operating here..and the fact that it is so bold as to act out in God's House is evident it has been growing in strength for a while now....Gossipers and backbiters....time for Pleading the Blood of Jesus in that place....command those spirits to leave....and Loose that Holy Spirit to spread His love and fruits through out each member....that's what I would do....and pray and intercede....

Mercy, a friend of mine just pointed out that I am making it sound like laying hands on them and casting the demons out.....no no no....just quietly and privately walk through the church and use your authority over any hindering and divisive spirit in Jesus name....the just loose the spirit of love. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Heart2Soul

[pg4Him]

42 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said:

The reality is that any ministry that is shrinking and characterized by strife is likely very unhealthy.  It's going to take a serious move of God to fix what is wrong before it will become healthy and start growing again.  Sadly, churches in this situation often see lack of numbers as the problem and think that the solution is to get more members.  They are often unwilling to look at themselves and ask God what needs to change in themselves.  Indeed, anyone who dares to point out that fighting and strife might be what keeps people away are shouted down as being part of the problem.  I've seen this first hand in a few places.

Over the years, I've been in many ministries and churches that have had problems of various types.   One thing that is usually true is this.  There are usually a couple deep rooted issues (or maybe one) that are the real source of the problems.  The vast majority of what is seen are symptoms caused by a few root causes (or maybe one).  There've been times I could make a difference, but some times I could not.  

I first learned this in a church we joined 5 years into the aftermath of a nasty split.  Everyone was fighting over everything.  Membership was a revolving door.  We eventually gave up and left ourselves.   It wasn't until years later reflecting on this that I realized most of the problems  flowed from the old-timers being spiritually and emotionally hurt during the initial split.  The long term members who stayed with the church after the split felt betrayed and abandoned by the pastoral staff during the split.  Indeed, a few associate pastors had left and a number of people followed them.   The old-timers had been deeply hurt and wounded and no one in leadership afterwards stepped up to acknowledge this or help them heal from it.  The net result of this pain was that a root of bitterness took hold.  They hit a point where they couldn't bring themselves to trust another pastor.  The pastor when we joined was the 5th senior pastor in 5 years.  There were people who'd publicly talk nicely about the pastor but behind closed doors would gossip and backbite about him between themselves and trying to convince new members not to trust the pastor.   For them, it had become about protecting "their church" from outsiders.   All the backbiting, fighting, bickering, complaining about the past, etc.  was due to this deep-seated spiritual and emotional hurt.  They simply could not bring themselves to trust a pastor or outsiders (as they thought of any new members that supported that pastor).   We eventually gave up and left.    Everyone was so busy fighting over things that no one ever took a deep breath, stepped back, and tried to look at the big picture.

My counsel would be this.   First, prayerfully consider leaving.   Sometimes God puts us in a situation to make a difference; sometimes not.  If you cannot make a difference there and it is affecting you negatively, consider getting out.   Perhaps ask yourself, if you knew what you know now, would you have joined in the first place?    I'd also ask the serious question, where did most of the old members go?  Is there a spiritually healthier church where your attempts to reach out would be encouraged and responded to?   The bottom line though is what God wants you to do going forward.

If you feel that God wants you to stay and make a difference, I'd recommend that you prayerfully ask for God's discernment as to what the real problem is.  My guess is that much of what you see are symptoms of a few root causes.  It might be associated with the pastor, it might be associated with one or two board members, it might be associated with a few very influential members or families, given that there are a dozen members, maybe most of them.   There may have been something that happened a decade ago that people are still hurt and angry about.  The pastor might be lacking in self-confidence, scared of leaving,  and being hounded by a board member or two.   There might be a distrust of younger people due to some mistake that happened ages ago.  Until God gives you clear discernment and insight as to the real root issue, there's not much that can be done.    Once you have a clear spiritual sense of what God is revealing about the real situation, He may then give you a course of action that can make a difference.  It might be that there are one or two people that you need to break the ice with and become friends, and that will start to spread.  Perhaps giving a particular book (as lead by God) to the pastor as a gift might do something.   Perhaps there is some type of spiritual battle that needs to be fought in prayer.

I've seen God turn ministries around in miraculous ways.  I've seen ministries just wither and eventually die because they didn't want to change in ways God wanted them to.

I feel for you because I've been in similar situations.  It can be tough at times.

Thank you for this counsel. We have definitely felt that what we see are mere symptoms. Every time we wanted to complain about this or that situation, we always felt led to keep digging. 

We are currently seeking His voice for our next move. 

[pg4Him]

39 minutes ago, Hidden In Him said:

I have not read Gandalf's post yet, and usually he is very thoughtful with his answers. But while I agree with Melissa that it is commendable of you to be so patient with that church, my initial response to this question is very plain and simple: Leave. Unless you feel a very specific leading to stay for some reason, that is not somewhere where you are ever going to grow any time soon. I would just have a nice meeting or dinner with your friend and with a very heart-felt explanation inform her that you two need to find someplace you can grow, and right now that is not the place where you can do it.

Don't feel so obligated to others that you sacrifice your own spiritual welfare for them. This is a habit with many believers, but it is taking self-sacrifice past the point that one should. What could happen if tragedy strikes and you truly need some strong Christian fellowship to get you through? Where will you be then?

Thank you for this advice. We are definitely not growing in terms of church members.

[GandalfTheWise]

11 minutes ago, pg4Him said:

Thank you for this counsel. We have definitely felt that what we see are mere symptoms. Every time we wanted to complain about this or that situation, we always felt led to keep digging. 

We are currently seeking His voice for our next move. 

It sounds like you are prudently following God on this.  

[pg4Him]

31 minutes ago, Heart2Soul said:

How do you feel about binding and rebuking demonic influences in people? This is pretty obvious that there is division and strife operating here..and the fact that it is so bold as to act out in God's House is evident it has been growing in strength for a while now....Gossipers and backbiters....time for Pleading the Blood of Jesus in that place....command those spirits to leave....and Loose that Holy Spirit to spread His love and fruits through out each member....that's what I would do....and pray and intercede....

I will do this in a minute when I have the authority in a situation. In this case, we are total outsiders, and I can’t confront things on the pastor.

[Heart2Soul]

2 minutes ago, pg4Him said:

I will do this in a minute when I have the authority in a situation. In this case, we are total outsiders, and I can’t confront things on the pastor.

You mean in person? No but you can take it to God...and you can speak to those spirits operating without having to lay hands....I do a cleansing in my house often because my daughter is into drugs and living on the street and when she comes over and stays a day or two the atmosphere is tense and there is arguing and the peace is gone.